number

hi guys,

I need some opinions about my situation:

I'm almost 34, got my frozen ATPL, MEP/IR, MCC, 600TT yada yada yada a few years ago and no jobs as a pilot..
I have now a good and stable job which pays off quite well, different environment of course....

Suddenly something has moved for me in the aviation frame and it seems I can have a job as a copilot in a small airtaxi company in my city ....

I went there a few times, got acquainted with everyone, started to update jeppesen .. saw the plane, spoke with pilots and captains... but...
first of all I need to pay my type rating .... which will be more or less 13K pounds.... after which I will have to do 40 legs and no pay... (period that can take from 1-2 months to 3-4) and only then I'll have a contract... which seems it will be ridiculous in term of pay, say 40% less than what I'm making now ..... plus I'll have to keep into account 3 to 5 months without salary, and the type rating .....

So, at the very beginning I was trilled... but now I started to have my doubts ... I know this airtaxi company would be only a beginning, because no one is willing to be there .... but it's a good training and beginning for sure....

I don't have a family to support but my family can barely support me, I do have my job but don't really have a lot saved .....

What would you guys do? Do you think it's a difficult decision? Becaise I can't see things clearly no more.

thank you!

isi3000

Well it seems like you've had a long wait for this first job but it sounds as if this just is not the right job for you. If it doesn't suit your situation maybe you should consider turning it down

preduk

Tough one.

You could use them to get the experience, but what happens if they take you for a ride and get rid of you after the temporary period, it means you are 13k down and not a penny to show for it.

Bravo441

You said you were thrilled when you got the offer of the job with the air taxi company. Were you thrilled when you got the offer of the job (not aviation related) you are in now? Would you be thriiled to advance and excell in your current position or a similar field?

Its obvious you are passionate about flying, havin made the considerable sacrifices to put 600TT in the log book.

Ask yourself the above questions a few times, but whatever happens, dont have any regrets (Easier said than done).

Best of luck....441

Vortex Thing

Personally think you should quit and leave aviation and go and do something a little less risky.

DON'T BE SO SOFT. If they are asking for money but guarantee you a job then take the offer. That's a good offer, there are many firms out there who will take the money and not guarantee you a job! I.e. every FTO and TRTO you have been to so far. This is just another step in the job chain the difference is you are not having to guess which type rating may or may not be attractive.

So 2 scenarios remain.
1) You do not want it enough. In which case leave it to someone who does.
2) You want it but are not sure if it's worth the financial risk. Which seeing as you have probably paid upwards of £60k to get to where you are now is a little nonsensical. See 1 above!

So in essence the choice is whether or not you want to fly something for a living OR earn a living and fly when it suits you. If you want to fly for a living and someone offers you a job in something that flies take the job, you are unlikely to starve and it can only get better. If on the other hand the money is more useful than advancing your career then I hate to tell you that you will never be happy in aviation because statistically you are likely to be very much worse off for many years before it gets better.

Don't want to rain on your parade but the scenario you describe is not a decision about this role it is a decision about whether you really want this career. There is nothing more important than the job! There is little that you cannot buy later in life that is important as you state you have no family to support.

Good luck.
VT

wheelie my boeing

If you can't afford it, you can't afford it.
Everyone these days is racking up more and more debts... It WILL bite them in the one day. Hold in there! Some people wait 3/4 years but eventually it will happen!

pipertommy

If you are thinking of turning it down, couldnt you try your luck and strike a deal with bonding? Being local and unlikely to want to move on at the drop of a hat, must be a selling point. Worth a try? They can only say no.
Good luck

Finals19

Vortex... I can't say I agree with this at all - you are effectively endorsing a company that is not prepared to commit or invest in a potential employee on any level. That says a lot about the company, and indeed sadly a lot about the evolving state of the pilot employment market! If they offered a bond with pay from day one of line flying (at the very least) then that would be much more palatable. Its ludicrous enough nowadays that pilots are more and more being forced to pay training costs up front (the fault of a minority but the majority are affected!) but to offer no commitment at all until the end of 40 sectors - come on!!!

Number - your comments are fair and reasonable and IMHO if you can hold out, then I most definitely would. Add that to the fact that you say nobody really wants to stay there (I wonder why?!) I would imagine the CRM and general ambience isn't too great either. It is indeed a question of gaining experience, but at what cost?

Vortex Thing

Finals 19. You start of chastising my view but then hit the hail on the head in your last sentence.

It is called supply and demand. Currently there is ample supply so the buyer i.e. the airlines do what they want as we the seller are prepared to pay more and more. When/if the balance shifts then the boot will move onto the other foot.

Is it ludicrous that pilots have to pay up front training cost, errm yep. Is it morally wrong, errm yep. Do we continue to do it droves errm yep. Why because much as we would like it our moral conscience doesn't pay the mortgage and the facts are simple aviation is no longer a meritocracy it's an hoursocracy and experienceocracry.

I would love to see the introduction of a universal pilot aptitude test of the sort of OASC caliber which had scores going from 1000 = Chuck Yeager to 10 = I will follow you into an aircraft purely out of curiosity.

A fully integrated test i.e psych profile, maths, physics, verbal numerical reasoning, spatial orientation as well as motor skills and learning. This test to be run by an independent contractor to JAR with every firm in Europe as an ironclad agreement to take the next best form the top of the pile only. None of this rubbish where you get an A starred for taking part, pure hard cold competition. Where the guy/girl who gets 600 is just simply in every way not as good as the guy/girl who gets 601 and companies start at the top and hire in the order the market can provide.

Now the fact is companies do not just hire the best pilots on offer, they do not know who the best pilots are as the criteria that most screen on is arbitrary.

i.e. Many airlines will not interview you until you have, say 1000hrs with 500hrs on type or 200hrs multi, etc ,etc. You could be the next Chuck Yeager but no one will ever know until you have scrabbled about to get the minimum hours that airline X require before they even look at your CV. Or they may say they only recruit integrated or modular or flaxen haired. What I am saying is they are not as a rule interviewing everyone, putting them through a robust selection procedure and taking the best of the crop.

Now if the world were like this then number would be wasting his money unless he was a top scorer but because no one knows or cares what his score would be those who want it find a way, beg, borrow, beg again if they have to but they do what is required to get a job, any job, anywhere in the world.

Those who haven't got the stomach for the fight can feel free to leave, less competition for the rest of us. We don't make the rules as the supply, we only make the rules when we are the demand. Until then number take the job or step sidewards your call but don't say in 5 years time you never got your shot and ask if it is fair that the guy who did pay is now flying his version of the dream.

Is life fair NO, is it a meritocracy NO, has someone offered you a job YES. Get on with it as the answer to is subjective is it worth yet more debt in pursuit of your goal to me yes, to you well only you know and only you can choose but when you do choose bear in mind that you may not get another opportunity like this again. They know it that's why they get away with it!!!

gunit

go for it!!

3Greens

first of all i would get something in writing so you aren't left high and dry if you fork out for the type rating and suddenly noone can remember offering you the job.

number

Thanks guys for all the opinions, Im still quite unsure (and I’ll have to decide in a few days)

The point is that I’m tired of struggling and spending money for my trainings, but at the same time I see finally a possibility as a pilot but the position is a bit controversial.

If I keep my actual job I’ll have a promotion and more benefits, if I go for the pilot career there will be several big uncertainties, first of which is the pay…

Don’t get me wrong, it’s not the money what I’m after, but it’s an important aspect considering that I don’t have anyone who can back me up.

Ok, the aero taxi company is rather small, didn’t impress me in terms of organization and offices, the copilots have some crazy schedules: first of all they have to be in stand by h24 the whole month sometimes cause they can be called anytime, and I was told that at least for the very beginning (which I don’t know how much will be ) I won’t be able to take holidays, and I will have to be always available.

The salary is made up of a fixed part and a variable one, depending on how much I’m flying. The fixed part is an insult. Fixed + variable is still 40% less of what I’m making now (and its not that I’m making that much either.. ) .

I really don’t know … I still have to make a serious talk with the CEO of the aero taxi company, see, one of the main guy did refuse me a letter of intention … you know, just to have a piece of paper that states … if you successfully complete the type rating + the 40 (not paid) flights we will hire you.

All I got so far : I was made to assist the dangerous goods recurrency course, and a few manuals ..

Sure at the end of the games I'll get the job, if the same chance happened to me a few years ago, i'd have gone for it blindly... i know if i drop this i will close forever with aviation ...

PaulW

Bite the bullet and go for it. I guarantee that you will never regret. Yes financially the pain will continue, the first flying job will never solve that problem. If you take it whatever happens, your hours/experience will be increasing one year later you could be moving on to bigger and better things. The "could" is with reference to the time it will take you, once your rolling youll be away forever gaining experience, being in the industryand in ten years time youll be so glad you did it rather than wishing you had taken the opportunity. I had similar circumstance where I bit the bullet for less than appealing conditions but im so glad I did.

Superpilot

Two questions:

1.) What aircraft type are you going to fly?
2.) Did they advertise the job and did you interview or are you getting it based on recommendation?

potkettleblack

If its a small company then its probably more likely that they might be open to negotiation. In that case get out the violin and start playing them a sad tune. Tell them how broke you are after forking out for the best training money could buy. Tell them how you would love to work for them but just can't afford the TR now and how hard it is to raise debt in the current financial climate and with the possibility of the aviation industry heading south that your bank manager won't give you a bean. If that is getting you nowhere then say hey why don't you take the TR out of my monthly pay in chunks over say 2 years. That way if they go tits up then you won't be so exposed and hopefully you will have completed the TR and have a few hours on type.

tom_ace

so let me get this straight, you will be paying to work for someone?

Orvil

Hi all,

I think you'd find a better deal with Skyblue Aviation down in Exeter.

Orvil

heli_port

You pay for the TR and you don't get paid!? {flashbacks of reading the Ryan air thread )

Stay away i say

3Greens

having read your further post it seems that this is a prety crap deal even for a first job. If they won't give you something in writing then forget it - too risky. The conditions don't seem that great either, even taking all factors into account i doubt i'd have taken this job when i was starting out.

agent.oen

this doesnt sound like a comforting deal at all... I would be very cautious. Also how easy would it be for you to revert to Plan B if the sh*t hits the fan?

I would expect to get paid to work, no matter what the job! This might be one offer, but there should be other offers out there too - I guess it's a matter of playing it safer while waiting for a better deal or risking a lot.