Message to Ryanair pilots
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Message to Ryanair pilots
To all ryanair pilots:
As we all know the countdown is in progress to the date in which this years pay reduction "deal" is to be voted on. I want to appeal to all those undecideds or those contemplating voting "yes".
I am posting this here, and not on REPAweb, as readers of repaweb are largely aware of the insidious nature of the game, and I want to reach, if even a few people, those who may not read Repaweb, but do read pprune.
I also want to our colleagues elsewhere know what's at stake here. Essentially, ryanair have offered a pay reduction "deal" that will reduce captains pay to even less than it already is and absolutely decimate pay for first officers (which is already the lowest in Europe). In pilot meetings, management have admitted that it is a pay reduction. They have offered also a few of the benefits illegally stolen from the pilots a couple of years ago, the types of benefits that are considered standard elsewhere. This partial restoration is made to appear to be a "generous" gift.To cap it all, they are insulting the intelligence of the entire profession by expecting us to agree to all this rubbish.
The idea to is to claim that the entire charade was "negotiated," thus removing any legitimacy from the pilots claims in court that no negotiations take place.
A rejection of the "offer" leaves the pilots broadly where they are now, BUT BUT BUT with the court cases and BALPA recognition to go-ahead. As ryanair will lose in the Labour Court and BALPA recognition will happen, they are desperate to trick the naive into voting for the "agreement."
The consequences of union recognition and an independentally verified working conditions agreement are obvious to almost all of us in the industry. For it to happen in ryanair, which seeks to drive the market conditions, it would represent a monumental victory for pilots everywhere in our seeking to maintain and improve our T&C's.
So this is where I appeal to ryanair pilots, particularly FO's. That the vote will reject the deal is not in question. However, the size of the no vote is important. There can be no question of equivocially rejecting it or it being close enough for ryanair to defraud the result.
Most captains and most senior (i.e. in the job more than a few months) FO's know that there can, and never will be, any trust in the current fr management. Not only have we seen "agreement" after "agreement" ripped up, and our pay and conditions disintegrate over the last few years, seen promises broken time and again, heard lie after lie, we have also seen a judge in a court of law specifically brand fr management as liars and perjurers. They will unanimously reject the deal.
Some people, newbies in the main I'm afraid, seem to trust the management and for some reason think the offer is a payrise. Some may vote for it. These pilots are typically young, low time and very new to aviation. If you are any of the above, and see the light, I apologise for generalising.
However, the fact remains that the fate of the entire industry rests in the hands of a few pilots with under a years airline experience. So I say to these pilots: DO NOT VOTE IN FAVOUR OF ANY AGREEMENT PRESENTED BY RYANAIR.
Our colleagues in every other airline in Europe are watching us very closely, make no mistake about that. We will be judged by our actions of the next few days. Fellow professionals everywhere are depending on us all to save this profession. We, the ryanair, pilots have connived for too long in destroying this profession. Now we can step forward and repair the damage.
The consequences of accepting this deal for FO's is an ENORMOUS pay cut over the life of the deal. The common refrain to these concerns are:
1) quick command - Unlikely as the companies rate of expansion slows. You can expect maybe 5-7 years on the appalling money you would sign up for.
2) get out, go elsewhere. BUT with almost 1500 pilots on the books, there won't be jobs for us all. Like it or not, most of you are here for the long term. Protect that long-term interest and vote against the deal. And even if you do move, it's only a matter of time before fr methods catch you. They must be stopped here and stopped now. This is our best opportunity yet.
You may say REPA/IALPA/BALPA will get us nowhere. This is wrong, even mol can't beat the law forever. Witness Easyjet, as the best example going.
So lets examine the options; you have 2:
1) Vote for the deal. This is a guaranteed reduction in your pay and conditions. You have no protection whatsoever. There is no concieveable way a yes vote will improve your financial, professional and personal well-being.
2) vote against. The worst that can happen here is a maintainence of the current conditions (which are better than those being proposed). BUT you now have a ticket to the chance of a vast improvement in your lot.
Isn't it better to have a very good chance of improving your conditions in the near future than definitively nailing closed the lid on the coffin of your future in this profession?
Ryanair are on the run, smell the fear in DOB's hysterical rant on crewdock. That letter was not the letter of someone riding high. They're beaten and they know it. So please please get on board and help copperfasten YOUR future. There is NO FUTURE in trusting fr management. Talk to your more expeienced colleagues, get onto repaweb and read it, get out a calculator and work out exactly how much you will lose. Have a look at the 2000 agreement to see exactly what was illegally stolen. Learn how well ryanair honour agreements that do not have indepedent arbitration.
You must also realise that the RPA is not pie-in-the-sky. It is the norm elsewhere. FR have some of you conditioned into believing your self-worth is very low. IT IS NOT. You are a highly trained and skilled professional and deserve to be treated as such. You are a pilot in the most profitable airline in Europe and should be treated as such. What you are worth is what is in the RPA, not what you are currently being offered. Pilots in other airlines feel they are worth an awful lot more than some FR pilots feel. Why is this??? Some of you even agree with this. What makes them better than you??? Do not be sucked into this mentality. You are worth every cent we are looking for.
Finally, do the right thing. For the sake of the profession, for the sake of your colleagues here and elsewhere, finally for the sake of yourself and your future, vote against any ryanair "offer", "deal" or "neogiation".
With the unity we have now, we can, and will, improve our lot for the benefit of all professional pilots.
IF YOU VOTE FOR THIS AGREEMENT, YOU ARE A TURKEY AND YOU ARE VOTING FOR A LIFETIME OF DAILY CHRISTMASES.
As we all know the countdown is in progress to the date in which this years pay reduction "deal" is to be voted on. I want to appeal to all those undecideds or those contemplating voting "yes".
I am posting this here, and not on REPAweb, as readers of repaweb are largely aware of the insidious nature of the game, and I want to reach, if even a few people, those who may not read Repaweb, but do read pprune.
I also want to our colleagues elsewhere know what's at stake here. Essentially, ryanair have offered a pay reduction "deal" that will reduce captains pay to even less than it already is and absolutely decimate pay for first officers (which is already the lowest in Europe). In pilot meetings, management have admitted that it is a pay reduction. They have offered also a few of the benefits illegally stolen from the pilots a couple of years ago, the types of benefits that are considered standard elsewhere. This partial restoration is made to appear to be a "generous" gift.To cap it all, they are insulting the intelligence of the entire profession by expecting us to agree to all this rubbish.
The idea to is to claim that the entire charade was "negotiated," thus removing any legitimacy from the pilots claims in court that no negotiations take place.
A rejection of the "offer" leaves the pilots broadly where they are now, BUT BUT BUT with the court cases and BALPA recognition to go-ahead. As ryanair will lose in the Labour Court and BALPA recognition will happen, they are desperate to trick the naive into voting for the "agreement."
The consequences of union recognition and an independentally verified working conditions agreement are obvious to almost all of us in the industry. For it to happen in ryanair, which seeks to drive the market conditions, it would represent a monumental victory for pilots everywhere in our seeking to maintain and improve our T&C's.
So this is where I appeal to ryanair pilots, particularly FO's. That the vote will reject the deal is not in question. However, the size of the no vote is important. There can be no question of equivocially rejecting it or it being close enough for ryanair to defraud the result.
Most captains and most senior (i.e. in the job more than a few months) FO's know that there can, and never will be, any trust in the current fr management. Not only have we seen "agreement" after "agreement" ripped up, and our pay and conditions disintegrate over the last few years, seen promises broken time and again, heard lie after lie, we have also seen a judge in a court of law specifically brand fr management as liars and perjurers. They will unanimously reject the deal.
Some people, newbies in the main I'm afraid, seem to trust the management and for some reason think the offer is a payrise. Some may vote for it. These pilots are typically young, low time and very new to aviation. If you are any of the above, and see the light, I apologise for generalising.
However, the fact remains that the fate of the entire industry rests in the hands of a few pilots with under a years airline experience. So I say to these pilots: DO NOT VOTE IN FAVOUR OF ANY AGREEMENT PRESENTED BY RYANAIR.
Our colleagues in every other airline in Europe are watching us very closely, make no mistake about that. We will be judged by our actions of the next few days. Fellow professionals everywhere are depending on us all to save this profession. We, the ryanair, pilots have connived for too long in destroying this profession. Now we can step forward and repair the damage.
The consequences of accepting this deal for FO's is an ENORMOUS pay cut over the life of the deal. The common refrain to these concerns are:
1) quick command - Unlikely as the companies rate of expansion slows. You can expect maybe 5-7 years on the appalling money you would sign up for.
2) get out, go elsewhere. BUT with almost 1500 pilots on the books, there won't be jobs for us all. Like it or not, most of you are here for the long term. Protect that long-term interest and vote against the deal. And even if you do move, it's only a matter of time before fr methods catch you. They must be stopped here and stopped now. This is our best opportunity yet.
You may say REPA/IALPA/BALPA will get us nowhere. This is wrong, even mol can't beat the law forever. Witness Easyjet, as the best example going.
So lets examine the options; you have 2:
1) Vote for the deal. This is a guaranteed reduction in your pay and conditions. You have no protection whatsoever. There is no concieveable way a yes vote will improve your financial, professional and personal well-being.
2) vote against. The worst that can happen here is a maintainence of the current conditions (which are better than those being proposed). BUT you now have a ticket to the chance of a vast improvement in your lot.
Isn't it better to have a very good chance of improving your conditions in the near future than definitively nailing closed the lid on the coffin of your future in this profession?
Ryanair are on the run, smell the fear in DOB's hysterical rant on crewdock. That letter was not the letter of someone riding high. They're beaten and they know it. So please please get on board and help copperfasten YOUR future. There is NO FUTURE in trusting fr management. Talk to your more expeienced colleagues, get onto repaweb and read it, get out a calculator and work out exactly how much you will lose. Have a look at the 2000 agreement to see exactly what was illegally stolen. Learn how well ryanair honour agreements that do not have indepedent arbitration.
You must also realise that the RPA is not pie-in-the-sky. It is the norm elsewhere. FR have some of you conditioned into believing your self-worth is very low. IT IS NOT. You are a highly trained and skilled professional and deserve to be treated as such. You are a pilot in the most profitable airline in Europe and should be treated as such. What you are worth is what is in the RPA, not what you are currently being offered. Pilots in other airlines feel they are worth an awful lot more than some FR pilots feel. Why is this??? Some of you even agree with this. What makes them better than you??? Do not be sucked into this mentality. You are worth every cent we are looking for.
Finally, do the right thing. For the sake of the profession, for the sake of your colleagues here and elsewhere, finally for the sake of yourself and your future, vote against any ryanair "offer", "deal" or "neogiation".
With the unity we have now, we can, and will, improve our lot for the benefit of all professional pilots.
IF YOU VOTE FOR THIS AGREEMENT, YOU ARE A TURKEY AND YOU ARE VOTING FOR A LIFETIME OF DAILY CHRISTMASES.
Last edited by CamelhAir; 24th Mar 2007 at 16:01.
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Did'nt realise all was not well at FR....Do the cabin crew get such a bum deal like you guys?
The fact that ryanair didn't want the facts becoming public,and known to prospective recruits, rather speaks for itself.
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I read this memo about the "new deal." in it's whole threatening entirety. DO NOT VOTE FOR IT. All this crap about asking the ltn based pilots how good the 5/4 is etc, etc. I was ltn on this deal and it's not worth the paper it's written on. I was earning less than I was 3 years ago. My sector pay was on average down £1000 per month due to constant standby. The roster is unstable between Jan and April, so you can't plan anything. A/L is imposed on you at random, so when you take the leave YOU planned in the previous April, they tell you you've had too much and won't pay you. I had a very important commitment in the unstable period and I'd planned leave the year before. 2 weeks before the event and the roster changed to 5/3. My pattern was thrown into chaos. I told personnel numerous times I couldn't fly, but they did nothing until the last minute. I was told I had to operate and the only way I couldn't was "if I was dead." They're a bunch of c*nts. Glad I'm out of there, but I look forward to seeing an apron of blue and yellow aircraft with no-one to fly them. Get a union now!
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Very well said,
That is the mind to have, I am not from FR but I deffinetly support this position not just for Fr but anywhere else. As colleagues now or in the future we must stand and support the market for us and the continuance..
Very well said, I hope evryone in FR reads this and takes a solemly thought to act in consequence.
I wish you the best in this struggle.
That is the mind to have, I am not from FR but I deffinetly support this position not just for Fr but anywhere else. As colleagues now or in the future we must stand and support the market for us and the continuance..
Very well said, I hope evryone in FR reads this and takes a solemly thought to act in consequence.
I wish you the best in this struggle.
suffice to say the vote will be NO
in fact i'm expecting it to be 90% plus against. the only fools who will vote yes will be the captains eager for 5-4, little do they know that its 5-3 wth one day AL!!!!! not so attractive with only 16s days AL per year!
unity unity unity
in fact i'm expecting it to be 90% plus against. the only fools who will vote yes will be the captains eager for 5-4, little do they know that its 5-3 wth one day AL!!!!! not so attractive with only 16s days AL per year!
unity unity unity
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Our colleagues in every other airline in Europe are watching us very closely, make no mistake about that.
What happens in this pay deal in Ryanair will affect every airline.
Not only would I never contemplate applying to work for them, I will never pay a single penny to fly as a passenger with them - ever! I also discourage family and friends from doing so. There are no words to describe the feelings of hate I have for O'Leary and his team.
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Am I glad I don't work for Ryanair. I went for a selection day and I was shocked at how the company presented themselves. I will never work for this outfit and I too tell all my family and friends NOT to travel with Ryanair. Go for it chaps, listen to your senior Captains and vote AGAINST this insult.
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Vote No
I am not working for FR, but have sveral friends who /are/have been working there. I can say from own personal experience that some other UK airlines already have started to implement measures to crews with reference to FR practices. This has to stop now as terms and conditions are deterioating at a steady rate. "If RyanAir can do, so can we". As a colleague in the European airline industry, to all in flight crew at RyanAir I urge to try to put a stop to this now before it is to late.
Be strong,
BlueVikingFlyer
Be strong,
BlueVikingFlyer
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I too tell all my family and friends NOT to travel with Ryanair.
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I've been doing this for some time. I send them copies of the FR incidents. The agreement I have with my daughter is that if it is cheaper with Ryanair, I'll give her the difference to fly with a more reputable airline.
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Wingswinger, thats not helpful. For a start its thread creep as it is FR Pay and conditions being discussed. Ask any FR pilot if he/she thinks the training and checking is not based around an extraordinary high level of safety and s.o.p. adherence. The issue under discussion is being suitably rewarded for doing that whilst the company turns a handsome profit.
p.s. All airlines have incidents. Print them all out, for fair comparison.
p.s. All airlines have incidents. Print them all out, for fair comparison.
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The post I refer to below, from well known ryanair stooge Inveritas, has been removed, which is almost a pity as it was so comical.
Essentially he made some ludicrous claims about a cash bonanza on offer from ryanair, whilst claiming he would happily screw over his colleagues for a few more pounds. Which he wouldn't get anyway.
It was the usual propaganda from the ryanair stooges, but looks like even the company realised this rubbish wouldn't wash and ordered it removed.
It's just not working this time Dave, is it?!
Which is why every ryanair pilot should (and most will) vote against. I will say it again, and anyone who can use a calculator, will agree: this is a pay REDUCTION.
Inveritas my good man, one understands why you are a LTC, given your support for this deal and the propesterous notion that you are going to get £12,000 extra. Perhaps you weren't at the meeting to hear DOB admit that it is in fact a pay reduction.
The lesson on the strength of unity will never get through to people such as this. So be it, you can't win over everyone. Thankfully most do understand.
You fundamentally misunderstand, or (more likely) seek to follow to companies agenda by misleading. IALPA/REPA/BALPA won't alone force changes. The law will do that, as it has the power to do. IALPA/BALPA are merely the conduits to allow the pilots to use the law to their advantage. Ryanair know they're licked here, DOB's letter being confirmation if any were needed.
oops, wrong again inveritas. Micko admits that the labour court hearing will be held in a matter of weeks.
How right you are, it is not about pride or respect or unity for you inveritas. You have no pride, no respect for yourself and certainly no unity. And if it's all about money, rest assured that your colleagues are going to win a deal that will see your financial future assured. Once you've crawled out of your bosses rear orifice, you too will be able to enjoy the fruits of your colleagues backbones and balls.
Essentially he made some ludicrous claims about a cash bonanza on offer from ryanair, whilst claiming he would happily screw over his colleagues for a few more pounds. Which he wouldn't get anyway.
It was the usual propaganda from the ryanair stooges, but looks like even the company realised this rubbish wouldn't wash and ordered it removed.
It's just not working this time Dave, is it?!
It is all about money. Simple.
Inveritas my good man, one understands why you are a LTC, given your support for this deal and the propesterous notion that you are going to get £12,000 extra. Perhaps you weren't at the meeting to hear DOB admit that it is in fact a pay reduction.
I don't care about other airline pilots.
The Aer Lingus pilot union IALPA will have to get rid of Michael O'Leary from Ryanair before the company will ever really deal with unions. Simple.
Let's get real. If they do get rid of MOL then maybe there will be REPA power!
Let's get real. If they do get rid of MOL then maybe there will be REPA power!
But that is many years away - many, many years.
It is all about money - not pride or respect or unity.
Last edited by CamelhAir; 25th Mar 2007 at 18:47. Reason: The post I refer to has been removed. Also i have spelling and grammatical difficulties on occasion!