popay

Hi folks,
question raised regarding the commander's discretion upon departure away from home base. Following situation max FDP 13 hours, scheduled block 11:45+01:00 preflight=12:45 total FDP which is within the limits. However the actual flight time is known prior departure to be 12:12. That means, calculating the FDP 01:00 PREFLIGHT+12:12 flight time+10 taxi=13:22. Its obvious that max allowable FPD is gonna be exceeded. Here come the 1 000 000 $ question. How justifiable is the execution of the commander's discretion out of base in that case? It must be said that the discrepancies in argumentation are mainly due to interpretation of the term "unforeseen circumstance".
One opponent is saying that knowing in advance about longer flight time cant be considered as unforeseen circumstance, ergo the commander's discretion isn't justifiable. Unforeseen circumstance is basically something beyond the control of the commander such as ATC delay or baggage ID. The other opponent, on the other hand, means that longer flight time is an unforeseen circumstance, cause that longer flight time is abnormal for the season that particular flight is conducted and previous flights have been within the limits. The reasoning behind it is that the airline is calculating the seasonal block times and publishes them in the schedule and those times are compulsory and not advisory. Therefore the discretion is OK.
I can see both sides having their reasons and its indeed not an easy situation.
Would appreciate your comments and thoughts.
Thanks.

Bealzebub

Provided that the commander has taken note of the circumstances of other crew members and is satisfied that the flight can be made safely, then he may at (his) discretion extend the FDP beyond the tabled limits up to a maximum of 2 hours for an FDP involving 2 or more sectors and prior to the first and subsequent sectors. However this may be extended to 3 hours prior to a single sector flight or immediately prior to the last sector of a multi sector flight. 3 hours is the maximum permitted unless a situation arises which constitutes a defined "emergency" when the 3 hour limit may also be exceeded.
The original extension is calculated according to what actually happens rather than what was planned to happen.

As such in the example you present the flight was planned as 11:45 and actually resulted as 12:12 therefore the Captain may after taking into account the previously mentioned criteria exercise discretion as (he ) sees fit.

The reference to "unforeseen circumstances" relates to the extension of duty after a reduced rest period, when such application can only be done exceptionally, and then only to the extent necessary to allow for unforeseen circumstances that become apparent during the last sector.

In your example there is no mention of previously reduced rest being a consideration, therefore the flight time being longer than scheduled is irrelevant for the purpose of "unforseen circumstances". The commander may therefore excercise discretion as (he) sees fit. In fact it is an easy situation.

Semaphore Sam

All the above is true, including punishment for NOT proceeding under these circumstances. But...if something were to go wrong (engine failure, some other unforseen circumstance)....Captain is hung out. "Why did you proceed when you KNEW limits would be exceeded"? You're fine, provided something doesn't happen....if it does, you just bought a 'bad judgment' call. I'm glad my time is over.

issi noho

Fly faster.

popay

Bealzebub, hi there.
Thanks for the respond. You're absolutely right about the reference of unforeseen circumstance. Its indeed refers to extension after the reduction of rest. I have referred to the wrong phrase "unforeseen circumstance" in the previous post. I should have referred to the phrase "what actually happens, not on what was planed to happen".
An aircraft commander may, at his discretion, and after taking note of the circumstances of other members of the crew, extend an FDP beyond that permitted in 7.3.8., provided he is satisfied that the flight can be made safely. The extension shall be calculated according to what actually happens, not on what was planned to happen. An extension of 3 hours is the maximum permitted, except in cases of emergency (see Note).
For the record, we're talking about 1 sector of 12:22 BH with max allow FDP of 13BH.
That indeed, reflects the main difference in approaches for the reasons mentioned above. In other words a trip time of 12:12 was clearly planed and therefore its obvious that the normal FDP is gonna be bust. It can be suspected that rostering consciously has planed that particular flight counting on commanders discretion. Again if the flight would have been planed within the max allowable FDP and then something would have came up forcing the commander to consider the extension, that would have been completely different scenario though. The question here is: can a flight be planed knowing upfront that the max allow FDP will be extended and the commander's discretion will be necessary to conduct that flight? Following that logic, next question is: is the decision to extend FDP justifiable or not?
Speaking of the responsibility, do you think CAA can object that decision after reviewing the report and somehow cause the skipper troubles in case the CAA thinks the decision isn't justifiable. What is the general practise of dealing with that kind of things? Is that the communication between the CAA and company or the direct approach of CAA to the commander.
Thanks.

Bealzebub

Popay, respectfully I think you are tying yourself in knots on this one.

The flight was at the planning stage scheduled to be 11:45 with a one hour preflight period giving a total FDP of 12:45.

The flight on the day was actually 12:12 plus one hour prefight. In other words What actually happened was an FDP of 13:12.

When the roster was produced it was presumably based on an average block time of 11:45 and there was no real way of knowing that on the day the actual block time would be longer.

The schedule could not be based on an unrealistic block time as this would constantly result in discretion reports that would arouse the interest of the authority. Nevertheless discretion in this example is based on what actually happens, not on what was planned to happen. It is this distinction you need to accept. The actual block time on that day was not planned. The schedule of 11:45 was what was planned. The trip time of 12:12 was what actually happened on the day.

I note also that you now say this flight comprised only 1 sector. If it was a 2 crew operation that would normally in fact count as 4 sectors, so I am assuming there must have been an additional crewmember on board to remove this restriction. In such circumstances that crewmember who must be a current type rated pilot would be a resource to provide crew rest periods to the other 2 pilots in any event.

All of this is acceptable, normal and happens every day. If you think your companies schedules are unrealistic and you have the statistical evidence to substantiate this to support that contention, then a report to the relevant authority may be appropriate, beyond that all I can say is this is acceptable for the commanders consideration. Does it matter that on the day the flight will require commanders discretion before it has even left base ? No not one bit, as long as the commander is satisfied it can safely be made having taken into account...etc etc.

The last question concerning the CAA and the commanders decision is irrelevant since he has done nothing wrong.

popay

Bealzebub, thanks for the info man. I can see your point and the way you say it makes sense. However I'm not sure if a published schedule can be considered as legal base of operation. To me, its a flight plan produced by dispatch and that is a planing stage. Anything happening before moving on its own power, is before dispatch and therefore falls into planing. The problem is that the flight plan shows published block according to the seasonal schedule and predicted flight time based on forecasted wind conditions. I guess, its a question of interpretation, whats actual or planed. However if its a general approach throughout the industry, i guess I have to accept that.
True, but how about just to have a look at trip time? Isn't it why its called flight PLAN and not flight LOG.
Well if you're speaking about in flight relief, that's not the case. There was an additional flight crew member, but he didn't provide any relief neither to commander nor to f/o. Although on the same route another reputable carrier is having 2 commanders for the reason mentioned by your above. I don't think they would waste money. None the less my question about dealing of CAA with that matter is of big relevance to me, since I'd like to know what kind of consequences that might imply.
Cheers.

BOAC

popay - the use of discretion - if required - is considered to be a 'normal part of an FDP' by the CAA, as B says. An airline cannot re-roster a flight because the NAT, wind or bad slot makes it creep over FDP, but relies on the Captain to judge and use his 'discretion' where applicable.

The authority will sit up and take note if excessive discretion is used on a regular basis on a route and have acted in the past to stop this. If you feel the trip is regularly running into discretion, do as B says. What is not acceptable is airlines who regularly plan within 5 minutes of FDP or know that the planned t/round cannot be achieved. I believe the CAP guideline is that trips should be planned to FDP limit at chocks+30 - and this normally copes.

popay

BOAC, yea I totally agree with you about the fact that a discretion is considered to be a normal thing, provided the flight in the planing stage is within the limits. That's my understanding of it. Apparently the in flight relief has been stopped cause the flight time became shorter due to seasonal changes. Used to be 12:45, we did 12:12. Well might have been an exception, but I really wonder why the other carrier doing about 40 min less flight itme does have two skippers. Anyway, I'd love to read any kind of information released from CAA regarding that matter. Is there anything available online?
Thanks.

BOAC

Popay - it is getting a little confusing for me, as I do not know which set of FDP tables you are using. AFAIK, using the UK tables, the best planned 2 crew FDP I can produce is 11:45 on a Level2 variation. The issue would appear to be more about dropping the second crew member, which appears to make the flight unrosterable by my book. Which set of rules is your airline using?

You also say flight time 'used to be 12:45", then you quote scheduled block time "11:45" and 'doing it in 12:12" so I am getting a bit lost. All the UK FDP tables used are available at the JAA website in the sticky at the top of the 'Tech Log' forum.

popay

BOAC, first of all there were 3 pilots on the flight deck not two, but the third one isn't a relief pilot, therefore no relief was provided. The FPD tables we are using imply factors like acclimatized and not acclimatized dependable on departure time and either two, three or with relief. It would simply explode the scope on that forum trying to explain and to copy all the tables. I can tell you that the table gives you 13 hours FDP with 3 flight deck crew (no relief pilot) and that's a fact. With the relief pilot, rest taken in the seat, you can go up to 15 hours FDP. That's, what we used to do during winter season. 1hour pref light+12:45 block=13:45, ergo you need a relief pilot to go above 13 hours. What happened on this flight is that switching to summer time table the flight time is supposed to be not longer than 11:30, which wasnt the case. The summer time table shows a block of 11:45 for the record. Once again that's the initial situation. Now, lets try not to make make it too complicated. My question is simple: If you see on your flight plan that you will bust max allw. FDP because of the longer flight time, are you good to go using commander's discretion or not? Is that a common practise to do it that way? Isn't dispatch supposed to check if the planed FDP can be satisfied prior to departure?
That's what I found on the CAA web side:
4.5 Commander’s Discretion
Q. In what circumstances can exercising Commander’s Discretion be requested?
A. Whilst there are a number of myths surrounding the exercise of Commander’s Discretion, it is purely a safety-based decision contingent upon events on the day. Where there is disruption to an operation through unplanned and unforeseen circumstances an operator may request a commander to consider an extension to the normal FDP, to allow recovery of operational plans, if he is satisfied it is safe to do so. On the day there is no restriction on departing from home base, in the knowledge that the exercise of discretion is likely to be required to extend the FDP, provided the extension is within the specified limitations. In determining the circumstances of other crew members, any crew member who considers himself likely to be suffering from fatigue at the end of the proposed FDP, such that the safety of the flight or passengers may be compromised, should not be required to operate. The commander, in completing the Discretion Report, should note the factors on which the decision was based.
Here we go again: "unplanned and unforeseen" Is a flight time of 12:12 unplanned and unforeseen, if you see it in front of you on the flight PLAN?
Thanks.

Bealzebub

Popay,

Although the third pilot is not a "relief pilot", and is carried in order to remove the multi sector restriction there is nothing whatsoever preventing the aircraft commander from utilizing this pilot in that capacity. Although he doesn't have to, and it may be unnecessary, the resource is there. Crew available as a Resource to be Managed. That is the premise on which the third crewmember is made available.

You ask if the flight plan (plog) on the day shows a flight time (12:12) that requires the commanders use of discretion despite a planned (at the scheduling stage)flight time of 11:45 can you still go ? The answer is YES,YES.
The discretion is based on what actually happens on the day. On the day when the plog shows 12:12 and not the 11:45 at the planning stage.

If on the day dispatch discover the flight can only be completed as planned by asking the commander to consider using discretion that is fine. Nothing prevents them doing it. You are refusing to see the wood for the trees. The planning stage is when the flight was originally scheduled to operate, not when you get the flight plan or navigation log in your hand on the day, that is what actually happens.

To be clear you ask :The answer is Yes, it was unplanned and unforseen at the stage the flight was originally planned to operate. It doesn't matter for this purpose that when the day of the flight arrived it couldn't actually happen because of the headwinds etc, that then became what actually happened on the day. You are getting too hung up on the flight plan (plog) as being the planning stage. For this purpose it isn't.

popay

Bealzebub, thanks mate. You got your point and I respect that. However you didn't entirely convinced me, as you just keep saying that longer PLANED flight time is an actual thing happening, which I don't agree. My understanding of proper chain of events is: flight is planed, using predicted block time, within max FDP and that is essential. Why else do you need a flight time limitation? That's not the case with flight time of over 12 hours, I hope you'd agree. One possible solution is to fly faster indeed, in other words new flight plan showing less than 11:45 block. Provided the flight is planed within max FDP and there is disruption to an operation through unplanned and unforeseen circumstances an operator may request a commander to consider an extension to the normal FDP, to allow recovery of operational plans Extraction from CAA comments. I cant consider a longer PLANED flight time as an disruption to operation, I'm afraid.
I would consider a longer flight time, while being en route, as unplanned and actually happening if the actual wind was stronger than anticipated resulting in longer flight time.
To make sure we aren't talking about an exception, I had reviewed randomly 6 flights within the last month and they all had a flight time over 12 hours. The average head wind component hasn't been less than 65 knots. That means each and every commander had to use his/her discretion. Another aspect which makes me reluctant to accept your theory is that on the same route with 30 min less flight time another carrier is having two commanders or in flight relief, simply meaning that a FDP longer than 13 hours is anticipated. Following your logic a flight can be planed in excess of max FDP counting on commander's discretion as well as the public time table can be a legal basis of flight planing. Do I understand you correct?
Thanks.

Bealzebub

I am sorry popay but I give up. you can either understand the rules (or theories as you call them) or you can elect not to.

I think we have all tried to cover each point you have brought up but you seem intent on sticking to your determination that the flight cannot take place with commanders discretion.

I suggest you put your interpretation and theories into effect and simply refuse to participate in this if you are convinced it is wrong. Good luck !

Mr Angry from Purley

popay

Is the route a new route or one that has been regularly flown for many years, is it weekly etc.
One suspects that the block time is incorrect so a reschedule should be considered. What are the implications of a reschedule for your Airline. Implications to how the flight is crewed and or slot times. If the flight was 12.00 hrs then you would be on max FDP. Can you establish how many times discretion has been used.
When the CAA audit your Flight Ops they will pick up a trend if there is one and suggest you do something about it. You could apply a level 1 or 2 variation but i'm not sure if you can apply these to trips which are supposed to be factored but not due to a third crew member. The likely answer is a specific variation for the flight or the use of crew rest facilities, (seats or bunk) something that the airline will shy away from.

May we ask where the destination is?

popay

"I think we have all tried to cover each point you have brought up but you seem intent on sticking to your determination that the flight cannot take place with commander’s discretion."

Bealzebub, I have never said that. With absolute certainty can a FDP be extended using commander’s discretion. My statement is very much clear: a flight can’t be planed in excess of max FDP based on commander’s discretion. You didn’t answer my questions mate. Operational wise I’d have conducted the flight to avoid enormous costs and image loss of the airline. However I’d consider a voyager report or even an ASR.
I might be wrong, but for the time being, I just can’t see logic in your argumentation.
Mr Angry from Purley, this route has been flown for about a year, I believe.
It’s 4 or 5 times a week. I can’t tell you how many reports have been filed, but I’m pretty sure it’s quite a number. The implication would be a different crew composition, namely either two captains or in flight relief, resulting in higher costs of course. The destination is in Japan.
Cheers.

On-MarkBob

Hi,
I just thought I would write to add my support to Bealzebub. He is absolutely correct in what he writes. When I explain this subject to newcomers, I try to put things another way. That is you must first appreciate that there is in fact two sets of rules here. The first set covers 'Flight Planning' and the second set covers 'Reality'. Fantasy Vs. Reality if you like. While it may appear that your schedule is leaning more towards Fantasy than others, you will find that the Authorities will become involved if the discretion reports become too prolific on a certain route.

Once you have departed, the rules of reality superceed those of the fantancy. It's real time now!

Further more, there is absolutely no requirement that once a problem ensues that the whole flight has to be replanned from the beginning. For Example: I had to divert into Vienna due to a bomb threat. After the Austrians were satisfied and we were happy, we continued the duty even though it meant we would do three sectors. They tried to tell me I had done 3 1/4 hours into discretion because they tried to apply the FDP for three sectors. They were wrong! The planned duty was for two sectors and since no-one could plan what happened in reality, the duty time allowed, was for two sectors! However, the Captain has to make a decision that requires him to take into account all factors, this of course would include the effects on the crew doing a third sector. Had it not been for a very experience F/O being with me at the time, I might have made a different decision. Most importantly, the Captain makes the decision, it is his discretion no-one elses and especially not those back at base no matter what their position. If the company can't handle that then they are in the wrong business.

I hope this helps!

popay

On-MarkBob, fair enough. You have just proved what I wrote before. The flight was properly planed within the max allowable FDP. However the unexpected unplanned circumstance, disturbance like bomb threat has forced you into decision while being down the route. That s exactly the scenario I have pictured before. Do I need to say more. Its very much clear that a bomb threat cant be. planed. I fully support that decision. I'd recommend to read a bit more carefully while you read the posts.

Cheers.

Don Coyote

The planned duty is anything before your report (i.e. what is on your roster). Once reported anything that happens is what is actually happening, the captain may then consider the use of discretion. In this case your roster and the schedule (the plan) was 11:45. You report and are given the flight plan which states that the flight time is over 12 hours (the actual). It is then permissable for the captain to choose to use discretion.

Points to note though, it is not sensible or good practise to regularly roster duties that are close to max FDP as this results in captains frequently having to consider the use of discretion. Secondly you mention the flightplan time was 12:12 but the FDP does not finish until the aircraft is on stand. The best that you could manage is 10 min to start up and taxi out and probably another 10 minutes to taxi in. This gives a total FDP 13:32 (including 1 hour report) or had you already taken that into account.

backofthedrag

From the CAA FODCOM and as popay quotes -
'
On the day there is no restriction on departing from home base, in the knowledge that the exercise of discretion is likely to be required to extend the FDP, provided the extension is within the specified limitations. '

The wording unplanned and unforeseen are however relevant. The scheduled block time of 11hr 45 mins fits very conveniently with the max FDP 3 crew of 13 hours does it not?
A charter operator may schedule say 10 only of these flights and find this time avoids a crew change stop and all the positioning necessary. By the time six discretion reports have gone in and the CAA takes an interest it is all over.
Unforeseen does not surely mean such things as not planning for the usual seasonal increase in headwinds for example. At check in ' the third pilot missed his positioning flight - will you do it with two ' may work exceptionally but not often. A last minute strike causing a reroute is probably acceptable as unexpected.
If an operator plans poorly at the scheduling stage and then repeatedly presents the crew with the necessity to use discretion then they are risking the fact that the Captain may decline '' in the interests of flight safety " and the resultant bad feeling or worse.
Surely there are two times for planning - the scheduling stage and flight planning stage at say ETA - 7hrs. Unplanned should really apply to both, especially in the charter case where the two may coincide.