Flying Instructors who refuse to spin
 

On the private flying thread there's a comment about instructors who 'refuse to spin'. Assuming the a/c is cleared for spinning, are there any FIs out there who won't spin?

I prefer to wear a parachute if at all possible though I guess 98% of my spinning has been done without I consider it a sensible precaution (FAA have it spot on).There was a time in my youth 25 years ago when I used to go up and spin for pleasure ,nowadays I prefer not to unless required.I like the aircraft to be in good condition (many club aircraft even with a Public Cof A are not) and I like lots of height at least 3000 ft.agl.after recovery I strongly disapprove of clubs in the London area for example who start at 2400ft QNH.Its an area of flying that is seeing experience levels diminish except in a few specialist areas as most new pilots never ever see a spin even demonstrated.For training I like a nice gentle slow entry spinner both the Tiger Moth and the Stampe seem good in this respect.It would be nice to think that the pilots who carry out the post Cof A test flights carry out the correct tests (3 turns left and right) but I guess a mixture of weather /commercial expediancy and in some cases nervousness by the people authorised to conduct the flights means this part of the test is sometimes shall we say "abbreviated".:eek:

I am happy to.

Aircraft must be one I have flown before for a couple of hours.

Aircraft must be approved and in general good nick.

Will only enter a spin with 5000ft+ agl.

Recovery initiated by no less than 4000ft agl.

No parachute required.

RAS/RIS required.

Weather must be 9999, no more than 3/8ths coverage, no gusty wind.

Student sits on hands - literally - for first two spins, one left, one right.

WWW

I like spinning.

If it's in a C150/152 Aerobat, looking through the roof windows makes the horizon go past as if it's in one of those 1920's movieola penny arcade machines :D It makes me laugh.

I am also happy to spin, providing its a type that is spin approved, and that I've spun with someone more experienced on type. (eg my CFI etc ).
(I'm not at all keen on spinning the PA-38 though)

High enough to recover by 4000ft AGL

Winds not Gusting, good vis, in radio contact with either home airfield or RIS.

Spinning is something that should be taught IMHO, as it gives the student confidence in dealing with tricky situations. Having done it a few times, most students will view it as more of a non-event than they first thought.

I believe the benefits outweigh the minimal risks

Whilst not being glib, spinning the cessna is not really all that much of a drama(Subject to all of the above common sense precautions being taken)

Most interesting spin ever encountered was in an ex BAE Prestwick AS202 Bravo, used to increase rotation rate and do two more turns after the appropiate recovery action had been taken.

With the cessna more or less sorting itself out if you leave it hands off, we should strictly speaking practise the recovery more often so that the recovery is down to us and our proper technique - not the airplane.

WWW did you used to spin the PA-38? is it all that bad?

In Australia, it isn't mandatory to endorse instructor trainees in full spin training, meaning that a lot of instructors aren't endorsed in full spins. When I did my instructor rating, I asked to be endorsed on full spins, however there wasn't (and still isn't) anyone qualified to endorse me, so I haven't got spin approval. This obviously means that my students don't get to experience full spins at all in their training (through no choice of my own) which is the way it is for a lot of students.

I firmly believe that full spins should be demonstrated at least once prior to a student being able to take passengers. There have been too many accidents as a result of low time private pilots doing low and slow manoevers and spinning it in. Had they witnessed one, they would have had a greater appreciation.

Surely it's an important part of any pilot's training, instructors who refuse to teach it are probably in the wrong job.

G-SPOTs Lost - the bravos did spin well - an excellent aircraft for what it was used for. Shame they were sold off at criminally little money but thats another story.

Yes I have spun Pa38 Tomahawk II's many many times. Only ever had one refuse to recover at the first attempt. This was from an entry at 8,000ft and recovery at about 6,200ft. Just reset to pro-spin pause, then recovery actions again and out she came.

Strangely the heartbeat didn't go up much until about 5 minutes later.

There really is no problem spinning PA38's. I think Bulldogs could bite you easier and more seriously.

WWW

Canada has just recently removed the requirement for teaching spins from the PPL sylabus. Personnally I think they were half right. The requirement to teach spin recovery prior to solo IMHO only served to scare the pants off most folks who were still a bit overwhelmed by the whole flying thing. However removing the requirement to demonstrate a spin recovery on the PPL flight test is not in my opinion a step forward. In TCs defence they did place more emphasis on spin recognition /avoidance. Personnally when I used to teach the PPL I always set up a base to final stall spin demo and I also got the student to FULLY stall the aircraft and then keep the stick full back and work the rudders to stop the aircraft from departing. This manoever is a particularly effective in the C 150 and convincingly demonstrated that if you control yaw the aircraft will not spin.

no problem teaching spinnig in an aircraft that is both approved for spinning AND does it properly, there are to many modern a/c that degrade to easily into a spiral dive, making it difficult to teach spinning properly.

WWW spinning at 8000 ft in a PA38, were you not worried about being running out of fuel after being in the climb for 4 hours.;)

I have spun Bulldogs, Grobs and Fireflies, and all were benign though all had some aerodynamic anti-spin devices, due to poor characteristics of the basic design (Bulldog has spin strakes and a ventral fin, for example). However all were planned recovery by 3000 feet or leave the aircraft by the convenient exit formed by operation of the canopy release. When I have my instructor rating and when cleared I will spin, but not at the heights used by some civvy instructors.

Remember folks, check for fuel balance - even a C-152 will bite you if you spin towards the full wing when it's been feeding from the other! Was the subject of a "learnt about flying from that" I came across. Keep it within 3 gallons.

If you dont feel happy about spinning then you should not be instructing.

On a number of occasions a student has had a good go at getting me into an unintentional spin , what are the chances of a recovery if you dont practice once in a wile ?.

The only valid reason that I can see for an instructior not to instruct spinning is if repeated spins make him/her ill and then they should practice once in a wile to stay current.

MJR - this was in a souped up PA38. At the end of a rather lengthy instruments lesson in the climb...

WWW

Agree with A&C. It's part of the job; required to teach pilots to handle their aircraft safely. If an instructor is not comfortable with flying to the edge of the envelope, beyond and back again safely, then they should find another job.

I saw this thread title and just had to have a look, yep there it is just a couple of posts in the good old 'lets slag of the PA38'.


Phew I am back now after having ran around the cat screamng.

But hang on......WWW...... yes someone who knows what he is talking about.


There is nothing wrong with spinning PA38s I do it, the guy who tought me, did it, my examiner for my instructor rating made me do it and I love it. They behave perfectly, enter properly, recover gently, wait....the spin WILL tighten (which I think is where some may faulter) and then recovery occurs.

Climb up do it again.

Beats doing 4i any day.

Quite a few statements similiar to that of fibods.

To my knowledge there is no requirement for CFI's, Grade 1, 2 or 3 to have to be able to (or want to ) spin an aircraft (in Australia, that is). All that is required is that they have demonstrated that the he can exit a spin. The reason for that being quite obvious.

Therefore if the Regulator does not make it a requirment, and it is not part of the job description; why is the feeling that Instructor is less of an Instructor for not wanting to teach and worse, the feeling that he should not even be instructing.

Seems to me that there are enough testosterone loaded instructors out there to go around without all of us having to do it. I would hazard a guess some have even posted here on this subject. ;)

I used to teach it, and even used to enjoy it, but age and a few frights convinced me to let others do it

Yep, I voted to refuse.

I have spun only 152a aircraft, and of the 12 in our fleet there is one specifically that never comes out 1st go. Apart from that i find it not at all a worry to spin and believe every student should see one at some stage in their training.

I agree spinning should be available, and recommended to improve confidence. Unfortunately our ageing fleet of warriors will barely wing drop, and are not cleared for spinning. A pity.

muppet

There is nothing wrong with spinning PA38s I do it, the guy who tought me, did it, my examiner for my instructor rating made me do it and I love it. They behave perfectly, enter properly, recover gently, wait....the spin WILL tighten (which I think is where some may faulter) and then recovery occurs.

Sure... another "I've spun a traumahawk and survived" story :)

But I don't believe there is evidence that the Tomahawk actually passed the FAA's stall/spin recovery tests for initial certification, and if it was to do so today it would fail. The fatality rate for unrecovered spins is several times that of equivalent trainers. I guess at the end of the day its all a risk/reward analysis, which should change if you carry passengers.

I've never spun one, never will (intentionally), but I hear the tail twists and turns quite spectacularly during the maneuver. Have you taken a look behind you, is it as hairy as they say?

To the thread, people should not think they know how to spin an airplane purely because they have the three spins required to get their instructor's ticket. Sometimes a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Beggs/Muller, or even just letting go of the controls can be a safer approach.

IMHO it is far more important to teach recognition of and control at slow airspeeds than doing loads of spins, and learning to recognise and break the chain that could lead to a stall/spin (poor vis, distraction on a glide approach etc) because lets face it, it's not going to happen unless a lot of other things have already gone wrong. We encourage people to go for a spin in the aerobat with our aerobatic instructor as part of an aerobatic sequence, but they don't have to if they don't want to. Many students and instructors simply don't have the stomach for it.

As for the Tomahawk, well if you haven't spun one then I guess you'll never know! The problem there is often people do a half hearted recovery, which will work well enough in a 152, but the Tomahawk requires the recovery to be effected properly.

Sadly in my years in the industry, the only people I have known who have spun their way to kingdom come have been commercial pilots showing off with idiotic manouvres like a low pass and steep pull up, who should have known better. :(


slim-slag says:
"I've never spun one, never will (intentionally), but I hear the tail twists and turns quite spectacularly during the maneuver. Have you taken a look behind you, is it as hairy as they say?"

Ah yes the old tail wobbling story. It's an old wives tale. Next time you shut an aircraft down, listen to the airframe shudder. That's what happens in a spin, and not just to Tomahawks! As for certification, well read the POH.

As a related question ...

Just when did the (JAA) UK PPL stop requiring spin training ?. (Apparenty more people died from practicing rather than real accidents ... ).

When I was doing my PPL last year, I was shocked to find that it was no longer included. I've been gliding 20 years and although I'm not up to date with current teaching pratice, teaching spins was routine until a few years back. It was considered rather important because gross mishandling at the top of a winch launch coud see you spin in. Indeed, when undergoing instruction you would do a spin or two once every few flights to keep current - which took the fear out of it for new pilots.

By the way, "generally speaking" do light aircraft spin more aggressively than gliders ?. I'm thinking here of what a glider's long span might do ... rate of rotation ... (Most of the 2 seat gliders I flew were pretty docile - instructor holding it firmly in the spin before letting the student recover...).

I'll be doing my CPL soon - so will be reacquainted woith spinning soon ...

Thanks for any input ...

D 129

CFI

Ah yes the old tail wobbling story. It's an old wives tale. Next time you shut an aircraft down, listen to the airframe shudder. That's what happens in a spin, and not just to Tomahawks! As for certification, well read the POH.

Thanks. I admit, I've never flown a tomahawk, and I don't even know off the top of my head where I would go to find one! Round these parts it's hard to find something as underpowered as that on an FBO line, and I don't know anybody who owns one.

I've never heard the airframe shudder when I reduce power when I am spinning, but I use proper aerobatic certified planes. Do you mean buffet? I think that is different. Maybe I missed the shudder, I shall listen harder next time :) As for the tail twisting like I heard described, never seen that either, but I will look harder next time too :) I am happy to accept it is an old wives tale.

I think the problem with the POH is that the 'production version' of the tomahawk does not have the same airframe as the 'test version' where the original spin certification was granted. I think it was the Swedes who later put the plane through the FAA certification process, and it failed. The NTSB were so concerned that they requested the FAA certify the plane again. Not sure what happened next.

As I said, getting into a plane involves a risk/reward analysis (as does getting into the car to the airport). If the airframe is not certified for spinning, and there is uncertainty, then some would not spin it. If you want to do so, then I think you should. Insert smart ass comments about becoming a test pilot here :D

cheers

I'm not an expert on the history of the Tomahawk, but I understand that initial spin problems were in the prototype, which had a low tail and less wing strength. Anyone out there know the full story?

The POH is serial number specific as required by CASA . So it's unlikely that I have the wrong one. Ref section 4.43 "Spins" which is in the "normal procedures" section..

Having said all that I prefer my students to do their spinning in a C152 Aerobat so they can see some other upside downy type things at the same time, and hopefully enjoy the experience a bit more!

OK maybe the word "shudder" was a little unspecific, but that is the way I describe the movement of the airframe and the sound it makes when you shut a little aeroplane down.

CFI

Anyone out there know the full story?

A quick seach on the NTSB web site found this NTSB Letter to the FAA.

OK maybe the word "shudder" was a little unspecific, but that is the way I describe the movement of the airframe and the sound it makes when you shut a little aeroplane down.

Shudder is a good word, I like it :D I just got back from putzing around in the aerobatics box with a Great Lakes. I could not get the airframe to make any strange noises/vibrations when shutting down power to idle, entering a spin or recovering. I turned around to watch the tail during the procedure - easy as it's an open cockpit biplane and you just stick your head out the side :) - and didn't see any nasty movements. Note to oneself: Hold expensive sunglasses on tight when back of head is pointing into wind, and make sure stomach is settled before spinning looking to rear :D

Having said all that I prefer my students to do their spinning in a C152 Aerobat so they can see some other upside downy type things at the same time, and hopefully enjoy the experience a bit more!

Indeed! It is so difficult to resist the temptation to go straight into an Immelmann or hammerhead when pulling out from a Spin. Cannot do that in a tomahawk, - or maybe some of you can :D :D

Slightly off topic perhaps but has anyone here done any spinning in the Diamond DA20-C1 Evolutions? I’m interested to know how they perform in the spinning department. :D

Where I used to instruct in SA we had 2 ppl's kill themselves + pax when they went spinning. I believe it gives some ppl's the idea to impress friends with a semi-aerobatic flight. In all my time flying I have never spun by accident nor seen a student come close. Most times when I have spun in C152+PA28 we had to attempt them more than once often without success. I firmly believe we should concentrate on stall/spin avoidance rather than showing them a new way to kill themselves.

My sentiments exactly.
Had an incident a few years back when a cocky PPL decided to "impress" his 3 pax by deliberately putting a 172RG into a spin. They were lucky that time and lived to tell the tale (eventually). Quite apart from anything else, he was well beyond the W+B limits for utility catagory, and he put the wheels and flaps down for good measure. (the undercarriage had all sorts of probs after that)
When one of the pax finally confessed as to why he had been too terrified to continue his flying training, the CFI gave the pilot a well deserved bollocking.
His response was to argue with the CFI that he was only doing what his instructor had shown him. Monkey see, monkey do. All he could do to justify his actions was yell at the pax for "dobbing him in" He just didn't get it! I was all for barring him for life, but he had a nice little spot on the club committee so he was allowed to continue his suicidal flying. Funny that no-one ever wanted to be his passenger ever again.

Before an aeroplane goes into a spin it has to pass thorugh the folowing stages. Decreasing airspeed. Less effective controls. Abnormally high nose attitude. Stall warner. Out of balance. Wing drop. A pilot who can't recognise these warning signs and simply relax the back pressure to return to normal flight needs a better instructor.

CFI

You are quite right in insisting that spin recognition shouldbe properly taught but I m not sure I agree with your progression to the stall/spin. A significant nose high attitude is not necessarilly required to stall ( eg a C150 at gross will stall in an almost level flight attitude with 40 deg flaps ) , not all aircraft have stall warning systems and the ones that do don't always work ( eg the old Piper elec system ). The progression can go pretty fast in the wrong circumstances. ( eg heavy load, high density altitude, unintentional uncoordination due to illusion created by drift etc ).
Also older types are generally more unforgiving of low speed mishandling than than C150/172/PA28's. I still think spin entry and recovery should be taught and I will continue to do so eventhough I don't have to. But as always it is proceeded by a complete examination of slow flight including the game of " try to make the ASI go to zero without stalling" a great exercise in high power low airspeed handling and aerodynamic stall recognition.

In my training...
 

When I was in Victoria BC, Canada doing my PPL training, my instructor showed me the spin during the slow flight, stalls, steep turns part of the course so it fitted in well. We were out in the practise area, and for those who know the CYYJ area, its the one over the Duncan airstrip.
Went upto 3,000, did the HASEL check (he did) and I just tried to literally record everything he said and did so i did not screw us both up if I forgot something.

He had full power, "clean" config...and this was a cessna 152 and certified for spins. It scared the livin daylights outta me, and I was suprised I needed to hold my neck muscles tight during the maneouver. Anyhow, we recovered, with the AH spinning uncontrollably. Partial panel you could say. So I had a go the second time, but by following through, so he did two you could say. Again, i remembered what he said and did, and we went over and down again.

Got to my go, and during the nose UP attitude, I for some reason looked left slightly which rolled the wings because of my right arm lifting up for some reason. This screwed the spin entry up, and he shouted he had control and recovered from almost vertical with 0 airspeed. :eek: Anyway, i eventually got the hang of it after doing about 2 on my own and felt very comfortable with it.

However, on a side note, I am very suprised that some FIs refuse to do it with students. I feel it should be down to the instructor to TEACH the student, and not have a "lets forget the spin i dont like doing them" attitude. If you found out they crashed (god help them)...then it would be YOU at fault for not showing them should they have got into a position to stall and spin.

Smooth skies to all

Horses for Courses
 

This spin thread has been going round and round for some time !
I hope my post does not bring this thread to a natural close. My record in that respect is not good!

Now the tomahawk sounds interesting. The twisting tail saga sounds vaguely familiar - I recall the Vampire T11 twisted it's tails and you could see them doing so in the rearview mirror. As the machine proved difficult to recover, either through old age or mishandling, many stories circulated about jettisoning the canopy as a certain cure for this particular problem.

The Chipmunk needed 'strakes' to cure something to do with the spin but the exact explanation has escaped me for the moment.

The Jet Provost was spun solo by students in the 60's until a few - perhaps 2 - mishandled the recovery and took the Martin Baker option.

The Jet Provost MK5 had an interesting VERY high speed rotation if you applied half rudder in the recovery. Nystagmus was something to see ! If that is the name for leaving your eyeballs several degrees behind the nose of the aircraft.

The Slingsby had a similiar very high rotation in the spin if you left power on after a spin off manoeuvre. It would stop pointing vertically down for a couple of seconds just to fool you then spin like nothing on earth about 6000 ft per minute rate of descent.

The 152 was a poor excuse for a spin.

The Zlin is ok but always 'lumpy' in recovery.

A 'story' - I went to Florida this girl told me, and the American who taught me spinning said I should learn to be able to recover with the aircraft 'pointing' in a certain direction because, and I quote, 'Ya never know when you might spin on 'finals' and ya would want to be pointing at the runway' ! !

Most pilots 'hate' spinning because it is the one manouevre where a control input actually does nothing for the first few seconds except to make things worst ! i.e. the spin speeds up - conservation of mass as per the ice skater - I believe.

Get checked out on you particular steed. If you don't understand B over A ratio the you shouldn't be spinning.

If it wasn't for the blonde tresses wafting in the fresh air in my frontal vision from under and behind a leather flying helmet, ( my instructor was an older woman of about 25 years), I believe I might have chucked flying in on the spot.

The up and over, followed by the rotating of green and brown patchwork fields is still etched in my memory.

After several spinning exercises I actually began to enjoy it, and on moving to Cherokees many years later, made it a habit to go spinning several times a year.

Now with the realisation that if anything goes wrong an inextricable situation exists, I no longer indulge.

As current airplanes are usually not cleared for spinning, and are not as prone as the old timers to enter a spin, is there really a need to take the risks of spinning aircraft in the UK perhaps tens of times weekly?

The powers that be appear to have decided that flying training should target flying in a manner such as to avoid spinning, and accident statistics seem to confirm the correctness of that decision.

That is not to say spins do not form part of aerobatic flying, but aerobatic flying is not PPL flying, and not all instructors will necessarily feel comfortable with spinning, particularly in non aerobatic aircraft.

Bluskis:

You should not confuse aerobatic aircraft with aircraft approved for spins.

There is quite a large difference between the two types.

Aircraft approved for spins are by definition safe to spin.

Even if they are spinning in the UK. :D

Cat Driver:

Do not under estimate the 150/152 spin with 20 flap. Years ago I was giving a PPL with a gung ho attitude to his flying a club check, and I talked him into a 20 flap spin, wich happens very suddenly, and he pulled the stick hard back and tried to stop the roll with aileron. Nedless to say, the 150 kept winding up until I took control. He said to me after that he thought he was dead, then noticed the grin starting to show on my face. The point is, because it was unexpected, he followed his natural instincts instead of getting the boot in. I have been out of instructing for a long time, but I do not think enough effort goes into showing advanced students the subtle traps, probably because a lot of new instructors don't know them themselves. Before any comments are made, I new the guy well enough to know he would not be upset by such an experience, and in fact, he thanked me. Have fun.

Croquetier

All cessna's have a lower allowable positive load factor with flaps down. It is only 3.5 G on the C-150. Also the flaps will blank the tail, hence the exciting ride, so all in all your story does not in my opinion represent good flying practices.

BPF Rubbish! I taught on 150s for over 1200hrs, and if you don't demo 20 flap stalls, you are failing your students, naturally you make sure the a/c is not oversrtessed. With a handle like yours, I thought you would have a more robust attitude to flying.

Croquteer

I guess I was not clear. My point is your post talked about letting a student spin a C-150 with the flaps down. I stand by what I said. This is poor airmanship because an over agressive pull out could overstress the aircraft. Also the certification standards only required cessna to demonstrate safe spin caracteristic with the flaps up. That why the airplane is required to have a placard in full view of the pilot that lists the relavent limitations and specifically states quote Intentional spins with flaps extended are prohibited unquote. ( See the limitations section of the POH ).
Yes I do include a full demonstration of the stall in all configurations and attitudes but I will NEVER let a spin develop with the flaps down.

BPF The chap was not a student but an over confident PPL. How many people have killed themselves losing control of a cessna in the landing configuration?

As BPF says Intentional spins are prohibited in 152s but incipient aren't so I suspect Croqeteers point holds good if it didn't 'wind up' too much . The fear Cessna Inc has is for excess airspeed during recovery or even entry given their rather benign (spinning) characteristics. The sometimes rapid departure with flap down is well known and should be part of flying training on type. Especially for gung ho chaps