Student solo spinning sounds like asking for trouble to me. I see no requirement for it, and a spin is still not an entirely safe manoeuvre for the inexperienced, even if correctly taught. Again referring to UK military flying training, although the course involved the student practicing the spin many times, intentional spinnning was the only part of the VFR flying that was taught (or taught officially - there were some unauthorised aerobatic manoeuvres flown that I would not have dared solo!) but never practised solo.

Gday

I must admit haven't digested most of the posts but if I may suggest if you teach and won't teach spinning find another vocation as you are not doing your students justice only sending them out to find out the hard way DEAD

Cheers Q

Strewth, Qnim, I knew if I kept hanging about these hallowed halls, we would agree on sumint. :E
Cheers, Wiz. :ok:

what if the flying school you work for does not have any aircraft to spin in?
What am i supposed to do? Also when a student is flying a Pa28 or a C172 etc, what are the realistic chances that they could get the aircraft near the point it would be about to spin. A Pa28 does not spin easily - if at all but i could not say. The cessnas need to be forced into a spin and recover themselves if you just release the controls - surely if you wish to teach spinning then it must be done on an arcraft which has good spin characteristics eg something aerobatic (cap10 perhaps) otherwise imo it is a complete waste of time and does nothing more than build anxiety in the student and they will probably miss the whole point of the lesson becasue they are too terrified on what is going on.

Some years ago I experienced a C150 which was unrecoverable in the spin using Standard Spin Recovery technique. In the end I used in-spin aileron and recoverd at 1100 feet having been well over 4300 when I entered the spin. I was training an Instructor for aerobatics using his club's aircraft. The aircraft was subsequently grounded following my report to the CAA and it transpired that it was badly rigged and had been so for a loong time, despite being certified by the engineers as airworthy. A potential killer due to the fact that it is easy to be complacent about Cessnas as the myth states they recover so easily. One can easily be lulled into a false sense of security by assuming that the maintenance docs must be correct if you are flying an FTO's aircraft. I learnt a lot from this episode and would counsel against ever commencing a spin below 4000 feet, despite the fact that our H o T regularly does spins in C152s below 2400 during instrucotr tests - would not get me doing it though...

Which school is that, Lady? I ask because spinning at 2400' really is dangerous. This should be taken further, especially as it is the head of training.

Beaver - have you never taken a PA-28 into a proper steep turn, i.e. over 60 degrees? It is not difficult to spin if you overcook the turn, and if this aircraft is all that is available (it is at one of the clubs I fly for) then teach recovery from incipient. I have had a student send us incipient in an aircraft not cleared for intentional spins from over-enthusiastic response to wing drop at the stall. It is also easy to spin from a glide if you let the speed bleed off stretching the approach. In one study I read "Stall and spin" was found to be the final cause of over 30% of fatal accidents! Most were perfectly survivable power losses.

I know very students who are really scared of spinning, and most of those are a lot happier once they have actually done some. They often get the fear from those that have never been taught or not taught thoroughly. They often pick up fear from people who themselves are scared, or who talk about spins without the required reassurance.

Once did a spin in the glider whilst doing a test flight, with a Phantom pilot as ballast. Only looking to do an incipient, the type are very reluctant to spin, had only ever got a spiral dive before. However we were both lightweight and the cg was just right, I yelled 'yippee a spin'. the Phantom jockey just went quiet. He later said if they departed below 10,000' (I think that was the figure he said) their rules were to punch out, we were below 1000'!:E

I understand gliders are a little different! Well done for making an F4 pilot blanch. Always a good trick if you can manage it :E

Spinning certainly does teach an invaluable lesson about accuracy and confidence to a student, and boosts morale in the cockpit. Is it a good exercise? Absolutely.

Bucket, I'm surprised to see your comment. How long ago were you at 43rd? I heard a rumour that a few years ago they lost a PA28-180 in spinning training, hence the type is no longer certified for spinning in South Africa..

BucketEveryone in SA HAS to do it because it's a mandatory part of the syllabus - dual AND solo. I did it when I did my SA PPL and although the rumour was that lots of people just cruised around the GFA on their solo spinning detail, I did two, and I think succeeded in convincing myself that (a) the aircraft would recover if you did what you were trained to do and (b) I could recover from a spin. It's difficult to fit spinning into a UK PPL course because (a) you have to have the right aircraft and (b) you have to have the right student. On the latter, I reckon most instructors would choose to offer a demo of spin recovery to students who are at the more competent end of the ability scale. But it's actually the less able students who should be getting the training, not the whizz kids.

NS

I have always spun students at an appropriate point in their training, as a demonstration excercise only.

Whilst most modern aircraft are benign under normal circumstances, I feel that there is real educational value in teaching that if you abuse an aircraft it WILL bite, and steps should be taken to avoid the situation arising in the first place.

My favoured tool for the job (like WWW) is the pa38 which despite its unjustified reputation, demonstrates inadvertant spin entry perfectly, and predictably.

My one and only experience in a Tomahawk (training solo for incipent spin) resulted in an inverted spin at 4000 over the sea near Cairns in FNQ (Aus). I might mention it was totally unintended and resulted in the loss of about 1500ft, and I had the grand total of (about) 20 hours tt
at the time. The only thing that saved my bum was the words of my FI ( bless him) if in doubt let the wheel go take your feet off the pedals and see what happens ....what happened was a spiral dive which was fairly easy to correct. When I was inverted I didnt have a clue which way was up as I had a panaroma of blue above and below.

1. Although many non-aerobatic are rated for spinning, I prefer to spin only in aerobatic aircraft.

2. Don't skimp on the altitude - as high as practical is always comforting.

3. It is not a manoeuvre to be taught for one lesson only - any student undergoing training needs to be comfortable and competent in all phases of the spin. Keep doing it until you (the instructor) are completely happy with Blogg's skill.

4. Having instructed in a quasi-military environment (BAe, Aus) I prefer the Military Attitude to spinning - Pick reference points, set a well defined standard (e.g. recover after 'x' turns on a particular reference point), pre and post spin checks and etc.

Fark!

In our FTO we always demonstrate spins to our studens before first solo flight according to JAA flight syllabus for PPL.
If meteorological conditions and the student is all right I do spins mission after stalls mission although for JARs spins are before stalls.
We usually use for that demontration a C152 aerobat.

Ciao!!!

Rosanna

When I did my PPL, going back a few years now, spinning was demonstrated to me on more than a few occasions. I think that spinning should be continue to be taught just in the case of the student pilot ever committing a gross mishandling error - eg - the old fashioned, leaving it late to turn onto finals, with 20' flap and airspeed below 65, so that the pilot would immediately know what action to be taken should the airplane exhibit any sign of entering one. It should be seen as being an important part of training - just in case that situation I described above does ever come up in real life, when the student is flying solo.

Personally, I'm not too keen on spinning, but it is important that people know what one is, know the warning signs of it, and know what to do when that wing starts dropping, and failing that, know exactly what to do if confronted with a full blown spin.

I figure that spin training is important. Not only is it heart warming to be able to recover from an unintentional spin, but spin training definitely gives a student confidence in him/herself and the aircraft.

Most of my spinning experience has been in the C172 / C150 whilst instructing, although I have spun a number of different types. A spin in a C172 can be a very docile manouver if conducted properly, and recovery is usually virtually instantaneous. I have no qualms whatsoever about spinning a C172, and the manouver probably puts less stress on the airframe than a spiral dive demonstration.

For some reason I frequently had students apply full power in the dive following recovery from the spin - probably a response to stall training. I also found a tendency for students to overdo the forward elevator application, occasionally leading to a bunt in the recovery.

I find that the spin demonstration that most instructors do is unrealistic and gives the student the impression that a spin is extremely difficult to get into and requires large and aggressive controls movements. Typically the power will be off, the nose will be raised above the horizon and at the stall full rudder will be applied to induce a spin. In a C172 you need to be quite heavy handed to induce a spin in this way.

If you try the same excercise with 20 degrees of flap and power on, the plane will flick into spin a lot more readily. I am not advocating that you go and spin with the flaps down, since the aircraft is not certified for this, but I used to demostrate the wing drop in this configuration and then catch it before a spin developed. Typically this is exactly the configuration where the low time pilot will get himself into trouble. A scenario would be a go-around from an approach with landing flap, pilot forgets to retract flap, applies power, raises nose to climb attitude, speed bleeds off, possibly crossed controls, wing drop followed by spin.

One exercise I used to practice with my students was controlling the wing drop at the stall with rudder. Lower flap, apply power, raise the nose until the aircraft is at the stall and hold the aircraft at the stall using rudder to control any wing drop tendency - like riding a bucking bronco. If the wingdrop cannot be controlled immediately lower the nose and close power to prevent incipent spin from developing.

In my gliding instructing days I used to "talk" a student into a spin, a typical scenario being a low skidding turn onto final approach. The instructor sets out the scenario to the student that he is returning from a cross country and low on the turn onto final approach. You tell the student to start the turn (at a safe altitude), coax him into raising the nose since he is getting to low, and finally tell him to kick in some rudder since he is overshooting the runway. Suprised a couple of students that way! Most gliders spin readily.

The only aircraft that frightened me in a spin was a C150 Aerobat with a 150 hp engine upfront. The first time I spun it, the aircraft took a good couple of turns to recover, and then only after the control collumn was fully forward. I spun the aircraft on many occasion thereafter and never got it to duplicate the behaviour on the first spin, despite my best efforts.

Rosanna

Part of the problem is that spinning is no longer a required part of the JAA syllabus. Spin awareness is, and I take this to mean at the least a thorough briefing and a demonstration of "incipient" (for me usually from an over-cooked steep turn, as the PA28s will do this nicely). Unfortunately one of my employers has no aircraft cleared to spin.

;)

I quite agree with the advocates of spinning. If unspun, once spun you can really become unspun. The PA 38 is, in my opinion, a filthy piece of kit, but, if you pick up a wing at the stall with aileron, especially with full flap selected - the barn door hinge mechanism- the results can be invigorating to say the least. The trouble with teaching spinning in this aircraft ie: ex FAGC, JHB, on a hot highveldt day ie: pressure alt 5,500 ft, temp +35/38c - how do you climb high enougn to recover either safely or within the dictates laid down by the SA ANR ? I used to spin the beast with students but for demonstration purposes only but it cost them a lot of money in the time it took to get up there. Do remember to close the ashtray before demonstrating otherwise you'll get all covered in the volcanic.:p

I've got a fresh instructor's spinning endorsement, bring it on! It's great fun, just got to talk my students into wanting to spin!

What's the problem??
 

If spinning is done in an aircraft that is certified for it, and it's done the way it should be done (no funny entry's and all that "jazz" some instructors do to impress/scare there students) then there is no problem. You dont want your lic # or name coupled with somebody that died or had an accident because the got in a spin and didnt know how to recover!!

Just be safe!!!:ok:

My experiences:

I was taught spins in an aerobat with 'chutes, and that's the way I would prefer to teach them if asked. (Something aerobatic and with chutes.) At the college I used to work at, we had a dozen or so C-150/152s and a single PA38. One older 150 was the designated "spin bird", because they didn't want to keep buying gyros for the rest of the fleet. Instructors/students caught spinning one of the newer birds could expect to cough up the cost of an overhauled AH if they returned to the ramp with one tumbled.

We were prohibited from spinning the PA38 as well. I most certainly remember the tail wagging quite eagerly during stalls. IIRC, there was an AD for an extra brace on the vertical stab spar because of cracking on the first year models. Later years had the brace installed at the factory. It was an excellent X-country trainer though, more comfortable than the Cessnas for larger folks. I believe the stall/spin accident rate for the PA38 is double that for other common US trainers according to NTSB.

Though it never happened to me in my training, when I started instructing, I did learn that just when you thought a 150 was as tame as an elderly housecat, it would occasionally flick inverted during accelerated stalls.

One drill my original instructor used, which has stuck with me to this day is to have the student put hands in lap while instructor apply (nearly) full aft elevator and neutral aileron. Have student keep wings approximately level with rudder alone. Aircraft gently bucks and rocks in/out of a mild power off stall. Most benign GA aircraft won't spin if you don't let them yaw. We did this in a J-3 while slowly descending 2-3000'. Works well in the Cessnas, sometimes requiring almost full rudder to maintain wings level in turbulence.

vector4fun said: - I've never seen the point of this, what does the student learn?
At ab initio they need to be able to recognise and recover from: the approach to the stall, the full stall, the spiral dive (and ideally the spin). Where does "holding the aircraft stalled and using rudder to keep the wings level" fit into this? I agree that you want them to be able to deal correctly with a wing drop at the stall but the error that needs to be trained out of them is using aileron - having hands in the lap doesn't achieve this.
Yaw, wingdrop or some other cause of asymmetric angle of attack is required for any aircraft to spin.

PostScript, added 28/Apr.
Maybe the idea is that the student puts their hands in the instructor's lap :E there might be some merit in this with the occasional stude.

Yes - I know a CFI like that....

Still early days of PPL training. I was asked if I was happy to do it and I said yes so my instructor demonstrated a couple and then I did two or three. As well as being a good giggle, I think it does make you more confident in the a/c and your own abilities, despite it not being a mandatory part of the PPL course.

V1R

My first spin was in a fully developed wing-drop stall - SOLO! I was thus wide awake in the C152 aerobat. Exit spin 500ft later, as others will tell. Now officially rated for the spin, but it should be compulsary for all pilots.

ECT

Glad you are enjoying your spinning 'what time is ect'
I must be the silly instructor who rated yoo!
its fun, isn't it. especially when you are EXPECTING to spin.
ZK-DAN(the man) enjoys it too!, BUT I didnt have the pleasure in rating him, a certain flight examiner pulled rank!
ZK-JBL(The Aerobat) is a great little spinner!
BUT, guys, be warned, they are not all nice and docile and predictable like this one!(The Aerobat, not the instructor)
Be VERY careful when spinning, stay current, stay high, and keep a GOOD lookout!
We share the airspace with Big Burp, and MattyJ.
Signed, YOUR instructor!

reasoning from the bottom of my pants
 

"I'd rather be a live mouse then a dead lion" is one of my favorite quotations. The reason for me not willing to demo spins for my students are;
1. Training needed
2. Low time instructor
3. Haven't done a spin since 1992
4. Didn't recieve spin training during my FI/A training nor CPL

Although; I do teach spin entry demos and spiral desents, but a full spin - not for now... but want to be able though.

Didn't receive spin training in the FI course? Where did you do that? Seemed to me a vital part, as to demonstrate safely whilst pattering it demands the most care in the set up, especially that nasty one from the fouled-up go-around that the Cessnas particularly keen to show you. May just be that my FI instructor (one of the most highly-qualified in the country) just happens to enjoy spinning - in fact I know he does - but I genuinely saw it important, even having spun a lot before.

Get up and spin! Come to England, we'll go and autorotate until you enjoy it :E

Question for you instructors...sorry if it's been asked:

As a PPL can i spin solo? I did spinning during my PPL course and loved it, and have done the Spin/Aeros bit of EFT but we aren't allowed to spin solo; but can I in civvy land?

Nothing in the rules against it if the aircraft is cleared and all precautions taken (use the military method of calculating spin height, it is safer than what some civvy instructors teach!). Careful thoguh, and talk to a club instructor before you do so. I first entered an intentional spin as captain of the aircraft when I was an instructor.

Top Tips for untrained spinners.

1. Wear a parachute.
2. Calculate a Minimum Abandonment Height (MAH)/Altitude.
3. If aircraft has not recovered from spin at MAH, jettison airframe.
4. Refer to point 1.:ok:

Having done both mil and civvy, civvy always seems so gash!
I always feel a little uneasy without a chute!

FLIK ROLL, there's nothing in the rules against solo spinning provided you follow the usual safety rules.

Some words of caution:
No two spins are exactly the same.
Some aircraft are very sensitive to stick position and have interesting spin modes; ... make sure an instructor has shown you any surprises that your particular type may have in store for you before you spin solo.
Wear a parachute, pre-plan your abandonment height and remember to check the altimeter as part of the recovery.

Spinning is great fun but needs to be treated with a little more caution than some other aspects of aviation; why not do an aeros course?

HFD

I got checked out for solo and pax aeros last year and love it, but for some reason I didn't cover spinning?
The aircraft I fly in civvy land if fully aerobatic and I have spun in it before (a long time ago!) so plan to go and get checked out. There are no chutes for this aircraft - what are the regs on having your own with regards servicing and packing?

No aeros instructor I know would check someone out for aeros without covering spinning, this and recovery from unusual attitudes I consider more important than actually being able to carry out the manouvers properly:sad: :eek:

It did involve recover from unusual attitudes etc etc. but no spin. Bearing in mind I had the same instructor for what I did of the PPL course who had covered spinning with me about 5 months prior and covered spinning with me previously. Shows how gash civvy world is im afraid! I always feel under a greater workload in civvy land due to the, how can you put it...lower airmanship standards of many pilots; just in the circuit alone; and out in the big wide world im afraid it's even worse.

To keep this on topic, spinning in full should be taught to every PPL stude. Ijust can't believe that there are people out there with licenses who have never recovered from a spin or even seen what one looks like. Not to mention the people that think they might go and 'try' some aeros :ugh: Like some guy at GWC as few years back who stuffed a Robin in.

And foxmouth, I agree wholly with you - recovery from the vertical, inverted and other unusual attitudes is far more important. Safety in the air is paramount, perfection comes through safe practise over time.

This chap had actually been properly taught Aeros having done a full AOPA course (not by me but I know the instructor who taught him). His problem was that he decided to ignore what he had been taught about safe heights and try things at low level:suspect: You can only teach people how to do it - afterwards you cannot make them follow what you have taught:rolleyes:

Yeh I know...I fly from GWC

and re-iterates my point on gashness...

Flik Roll,
:Rant on.
I'm appalled that an aeros course or checkout did not include spinning! That's gross negligence on the part of the instructor in my (not so humble) opinion and a good opening for your family lawyer if ever you have the misfortune to have a terminally unpleasant experience that involves (or might have involved, m'lud) a spin.
:rant off.

The AOPA course includes precision spins (normally 1.5 turns) and both "academic" spin and spin avoidance but I normally also include spins from a bad roll off the top and a bad stall turn, plus a demo of recovery from aggravated/accelerated spins.
Post-AOPA we get into spins from flick rolls and various other fun areas.

EGLS isn't a million miles from GWC so get in touch if you want to extend your comfort zone.

AFAIK there are no regs for private-use emergency 'chutes in the UK.

HFD

I'm appalled too and being 'niave' to flying at the time I didn't think!
It wasn't the AOPA course I did...

(Now far more aware and a lot less niave)