Flying Instructors who refuse to spin

[nonradio]

On the private flying thread there's a comment about instructors who 'refuse to spin'. Assuming the a/c is cleared for spinning, are there any FIs out there who won't spin?

[Stampe]

I prefer to wear a parachute if at all possible though I guess 98% of my spinning has been done without I consider it a sensible precaution (FAA have it spot on).There was a time in my youth 25 years ago when I used to go up and spin for pleasure ,nowadays I prefer not to unless required.I like the aircraft to be in good condition (many club aircraft even with a Public Cof A are not) and I like lots of height at least 3000 ft.agl.after recovery I strongly disapprove of clubs in the London area for example who start at 2400ft QNH.Its an area of flying that is seeing experience levels diminish except in a few specialist areas as most new pilots never ever see a spin even demonstrated.For training I like a nice gentle slow entry spinner both the Tiger Moth and the Stampe seem good in this respect.It would be nice to think that the pilots who carry out the post Cof A test flights carry out the correct tests (3 turns left and right) but I guess a mixture of weather /commercial expediancy and in some cases nervousness by the people authorised to conduct the flights means this part of the test is sometimes shall we say "abbreviated".

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I am happy to.

Aircraft must be one I have flown before for a couple of hours.

Aircraft must be approved and in general good nick.

Will only enter a spin with 5000ft+ agl.

Recovery initiated by no less than 4000ft agl.

No parachute required.

RAS/RIS required.

Weather must be 9999, no more than 3/8ths coverage, no gusty wind.

Student sits on hands - literally - for first two spins, one left, one right.

WWW

[Tinstaafl]

I like spinning.

If it's in a C150/152 Aerobat, looking through the roof windows makes the horizon go past as if it's in one of those 1920's movieola penny arcade machines It makes me laugh.

[Loony_Pilot]

I am also happy to spin, providing its a type that is spin approved, and that I've spun with someone more experienced on type. (eg my CFI etc ).
(I'm not at all keen on spinning the PA-38 though)

High enough to recover by 4000ft AGL

Winds not Gusting, good vis, in radio contact with either home airfield or RIS.

Spinning is something that should be taught IMHO, as it gives the student confidence in dealing with tricky situations. Having done it a few times, most students will view it as more of a non-event than they first thought.

I believe the benefits outweigh the minimal risks

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Whilst not being glib, spinning the cessna is not really all that much of a drama(Subject to all of the above common sense precautions being taken)

Most interesting spin ever encountered was in an ex BAE Prestwick AS202 Bravo, used to increase rotation rate and do two more turns after the appropiate recovery action had been taken.

With the cessna more or less sorting itself out if you leave it hands off, we should strictly speaking practise the recovery more often so that the recovery is down to us and our proper technique - not the airplane.

WWW did you used to spin the PA-38? is it all that bad?

[spin doctor]

In Australia, it isn't mandatory to endorse instructor trainees in full spin training, meaning that a lot of instructors aren't endorsed in full spins. When I did my instructor rating, I asked to be endorsed on full spins, however there wasn't (and still isn't) anyone qualified to endorse me, so I haven't got spin approval. This obviously means that my students don't get to experience full spins at all in their training (through no choice of my own) which is the way it is for a lot of students.

I firmly believe that full spins should be demonstrated at least once prior to a student being able to take passengers. There have been too many accidents as a result of low time private pilots doing low and slow manoevers and spinning it in. Had they witnessed one, they would have had a greater appreciation.

[ComJam]

Surely it's an important part of any pilot's training, instructors who refuse to teach it are probably in the wrong job.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

G-SPOTs Lost - the bravos did spin well - an excellent aircraft for what it was used for. Shame they were sold off at criminally little money but thats another story.

Yes I have spun Pa38 Tomahawk II's many many times. Only ever had one refuse to recover at the first attempt. This was from an entry at 8,000ft and recovery at about 6,200ft. Just reset to pro-spin pause, then recovery actions again and out she came.

Strangely the heartbeat didn't go up much until about 5 minutes later.

There really is no problem spinning PA38's. I think Bulldogs could bite you easier and more seriously.

WWW

[big pistons forever]

Canada has just recently removed the requirement for teaching spins from the PPL sylabus. Personnally I think they were half right. The requirement to teach spin recovery prior to solo IMHO only served to scare the pants off most folks who were still a bit overwhelmed by the whole flying thing. However removing the requirement to demonstrate a spin recovery on the PPL flight test is not in my opinion a step forward. In TCs defence they did place more emphasis on spin recognition /avoidance. Personnally when I used to teach the PPL I always set up a base to final stall spin demo and I also got the student to FULLY stall the aircraft and then keep the stick full back and work the rudders to stop the aircraft from departing. This manoever is a particularly effective in the C 150 and convincingly demonstrated that if you control yaw the aircraft will not spin.

[foxmoth]

no problem teaching spinnig in an aircraft that is both approved for spinning AND does it properly, there are to many modern a/c that degrade to easily into a spiral dive, making it difficult to teach spinning properly.

[MJR]

WWW spinning at 8000 ft in a PA38, were you not worried about being running out of fuel after being in the climb for 4 hours.

[Send Clowns]

I have spun Bulldogs, Grobs and Fireflies, and all were benign though all had some aerodynamic anti-spin devices, due to poor characteristics of the basic design (Bulldog has spin strakes and a ventral fin, for example). However all were planned recovery by 3000 feet or leave the aircraft by the convenient exit formed by operation of the canopy release. When I have my instructor rating and when cleared I will spin, but not at the heights used by some civvy instructors.

Remember folks, check for fuel balance - even a C-152 will bite you if you spin towards the full wing when it's been feeding from the other! Was the subject of a "learnt about flying from that" I came across. Keep it within 3 gallons.

[A and C]

If you dont feel happy about spinning then you should not be instructing.

On a number of occasions a student has had a good go at getting me into an unintentional spin , what are the chances of a recovery if you dont practice once in a wile ?.

The only valid reason that I can see for an instructior not to instruct spinning is if repeated spins make him/her ill and then they should practice once in a wile to stay current.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

MJR - this was in a souped up PA38. At the end of a rather lengthy instruments lesson in the climb...

WWW

[fibod]

Agree with A&C. It's part of the job; required to teach pilots to handle their aircraft safely. If an instructor is not comfortable with flying to the edge of the envelope, beyond and back again safely, then they should find another job.

[muppet]

I saw this thread title and just had to have a look, yep there it is just a couple of posts in the good old 'lets slag of the PA38'.


Phew I am back now after having ran around the cat screamng.

But hang on......WWW...... yes someone who knows what he is talking about.


There is nothing wrong with spinning PA38s I do it, the guy who tought me, did it, my examiner for my instructor rating made me do it and I love it. They behave perfectly, enter properly, recover gently, wait....the spin WILL tighten (which I think is where some may faulter) and then recovery occurs.

Climb up do it again.

Beats doing 4i any day.

[Gen Ties]

Quite a few statements similiar to that of fibods.

If an instructor is not comfortable with flying to the edge of the envelope, beyond and back again safely, then they should find another job

To my knowledge there is no requirement for CFI's, Grade 1, 2 or 3 to have to be able to (or want to ) spin an aircraft (in Australia, that is). All that is required is that they have demonstrated that the he can exit a spin. The reason for that being quite obvious.

Therefore if the Regulator does not make it a requirment, and it is not part of the job description; why is the feeling that Instructor is less of an Instructor for not wanting to teach and worse, the feeling that he should not even be instructing.

Seems to me that there are enough testosterone loaded instructors out there to go around without all of us having to do it. I would hazard a guess some have even posted here on this subject.

I used to teach it, and even used to enjoy it, but age and a few frights convinced me to let others do it

Yep, I voted to refuse.

[hombre_007]

I have spun only 152a aircraft, and of the 12 in our fleet there is one specifically that never comes out 1st go. Apart from that i find it not at all a worry to spin and believe every student should see one at some stage in their training.

[Charlie32]

I agree spinning should be available, and recommended to improve confidence. Unfortunately our ageing fleet of warriors will barely wing drop, and are not cleared for spinning. A pity.