PPL Instructors wearing collar and tie

[lady in red]

So what about the students who turn up smelling of horses, or whatever they have been doing before flying? What about the ones wearing totally unsuitable clothing for a flying lesson -eg ehite designer jeans, high heeled boots, skimpy top showing rolls of white midriff? Or the guy expecting to fly a C152 wearing a fur lined mock flying jacket and white leather gloves? Why do we not decree a uniform for students too? dark trousers, trainers (not white) and warm pullover or sweatshirt (also dark so it does not show oil etc)?

I am in favour of wearing whatever portrays the correct image for the circumstances so if we are teaching for a professional course then the instructor and the student should look professional. But should women wear ties (I have asked this before) or does it mean they are trying to look like men? If you are doing a tailwheel or seaplane rating then jeans and jersey or flying suit may be more appropriate for the instructor and the student as the practicalities of keeping warm must prevail.

[WestWind1950]

clean and casual, that's my vote!

I have flown with many schools, both commercial and non-commercial, both in the USA and in Germany, and NO WHERE did the instructors wear ties!! Did I think them less professional? no!

Flying is also a "dirty" business... do a proper outside check and get your pretty white shirt all filthy... no thanks.

And as for the students... they should be informed BEFORE their first lesson, that they should wear comfortable shoes, even sneakers if need be, and comfortable clothes!! emphasising COMFORTABLE!

I sometimes visit my school during my free time, dressed in nice shirt or blouse and jeans, then get asked by the school to jump in and take over a training flight or something. No need to drive home to change!

So, that's my opinion and, btw, even our people in our CAA don't run around in shirts and ties (but yes, they do wear clothes heehee)

Westy

[Baseturn]

Collar & Tie

Personally I have no problems wearing collar and tie as I was very much used to it in my previous job. I think it puts you in the right frame of mind and dressing smart makes you feel good and also says to other people that you care about your appearance which says a lot about a person.

Secondly, you are a professional and selling a service to your student, if my instructor turned up for work looking like he just got out of bed I would question the quality of the product and the quality of the delivery! This would no be fare as the instructor has spent a great deal of time and money to get to the position of flight instructor but it's the way we all think.

Thirdly most of us are looking for an airline job and we will all have to wear a uniform then. The flying instructor is as much in the public eye, perhaps more so and it is just as important to present yourself well.

So yes folks I think it is a must, look good, feel good and you'll do good

[WestWind1950]

if my instructor turned up for work looking like he just got out of bed I would question the quality of the product

NO ONE is saying that they would look scrubby.... wearing a shirt and tie does not necessarily mean clean and NOT wearing a shirt and tie doesn't mean looking like something the cat dragged in.

Thirdly most of us are looking for an airline job and we will all have to wear a uniform then.

that, too, is not true. There are many instructors out there that do it just for the joy of instructing, often holding down other full-time jobs. I experienced many hour-building instructors and I didn't like their approach (sorry if I generalise here... and THAT would be something for a new thread I think). They didn't care much for the needs of the student, they only wanted to build hours.....

What you wear does NOT show whether you are good or professional or not.

My humble opinion.

Westy

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi all
Does anyone remember Gordon Baxter's(of Flying fame) "mystery shopping" story, in his excellent Bax Seat book? He visited airports were he didn't expect to be recognised and dressed up as Joe Average. The schools that made a good impression and thrived were those whose staff were well turned out, had well-kept premises and clean, well-maintained aircraft. The slobs with the tatty portakabins and the down-at-heel aircraft were, one and all, failures.It provoked pages of letters and debate in "Flying" and made for thoughtful reading. It should be compulsory reading for every CFI, school owner and FI.
regards
TDD

[FullyFlapped]

I'm not an instructor : I've been taught by quite a few of them, though, and I have to say that - just as in business or any other walk of life - if you take a prat and put a collar and tie on him, all you get is a prat in a collar and tie ! It doesn't magically improve his performance.

However, some people feel better about themselves when "dressed up" : and feeling good about yourself is, generally, good for your performance in whatever you're doing.

I personally don't do ties very often (even with a suit), unless I'm going into an environment where it's expected - I'm just lucky, I don't really have to wear one.

However, there are a good many people who - still, even today - see a tie as "professional" business dress. Others, like me, couldn't really care less. I wouldn't turn down an instructor for not wearing one, but there undoubtedly are some people who would. Therefore, the bottom line has to be - in any business - why piss off a percentage of your punters when there's no need ?

FF

[Vortex Thing]

I have never seen any school in UK or South Africa anywhere where instructors do not wear a white or blue shirt and black or blue trousers be they teaching CPL or PPL. I've instructed at three schools and flown at around 20 regularly either whilst training or since some based at international airports others at small fields.

Every instructor who taught me wore a a flying suit or a shirt and tie and most usually bars too.

I think it embarrasing that people would not want to wear a shirt and tie and call themselves professional pilots.

I feel it essential that the public can differentiate instructors (myself included) not only by bearing, manner etc but also by uniform. If you want to wear a polo shirt then go and be a life guard at the local swimming pool, or play polo.

I expect my doctor, lawyer, dentist, banker, etc to wear a tie and they do. Hey even the guys stacking shelves in Waitrose wear a tie how an earth can any professional feel that it is acceptable to not wear a shirt and tie.

It is this sort of pinko lefty softly softly american rubbish that is leading to the changes in society today that are less than desirable.

Sorry just had to sit on the fence for that one

So that'll be the pin pulled.

[FullyFlapped]

Vortex,

Just have to ask - because now I have images in my head which won't go away - what is it about your "bearing" which "differentiates" you ? Is there perhaps some special walk, or secret stance, which is picked up on the FI course ? Could you please describe the relevant physical characteristics, or let us know if any special implements are needed ? (only please be gentle - I'm having trouble typing with these tears in my eyes ...)

FF

[reynoldsno1]

how an earth can any professional feel that it is acceptable to not wear a shirt and tie.

aaaaahhh ... the triumph of style over substance - my lawyer doesn't, my doctor certainly doesn't AND wears a skirt t'boot - and come to think of it so does my banker ... most of the controllers I meet don't wear ties to work either - rank amateurs,eh?
Brown shirts, black ties and boots - very fetching...

[Darren999]

Hi all,

I think I may get slammed for this. I train where the tempreture get's a tad warm! I train in a helicopter which sometimes feels like I'm sitting in a green house. Students need to feel comfortble with there instructors on a one to one basis, I don't really feel people judge me for what I wear. I reguarly save my students lifes when things start to get interesting, shall we say. They then don't care what I'm wearing when they shout "YOU HAVE IT!!" and you show them everythings ok., in your clam, collected manner, where as perhaps inside your screaming, oh my god.. They must feel comfortable with you, I think is the biggest thing.
I train in shorts and a polo shirt, it's comfortable for me. Well that's my 2 penny worth for what it's worth.

Darren

[WestWind1950]

I think I may get slammed for this

not from me... I agree with you.

I guess it also depends on whether you teach at a "fancy" commercial school or "simple" club environment.

Westy

[Vortex Thing]

Oh come on tell me this is a wind up but just in case...

FullyFlapped: Quote unquote Oxford English Dictionary

bearing = a persons general social conduct, esp in manners, dress and behaviour

So what is it about me that differentiates me well all of the above defintion I would hope. i.e. not turning up unshaved or unshowered, not 'not' turning up, being generally courteous and providing solutions before even being asked to, showing the establishment in a good light whatever other pressures are present, always having time for the customer/client even when you are at the end of a 14 hour day for which you have been paid for 2 hours of it, not calling clients 'mate', 'darling', 'love' etc, saying good afternoon/morning/evening/bye, always thinking and planning ahead, always seeking more knowledge, further experience and never assuming that there isn't something to learn or take away from each and every minute of the working day.

Whilst I am sure that there are things missing, the point I am trying to make is that dress is a part of this because we are by nature visual animals.

If you took a wonderful steak and sauce bernaise not to mention a bottle of Chateau Lafitte and liquify it it still tastes reasonably similar (accepted texture will be different) but it doesn't look anywhere near as appealing.

If we think of our wives, husbands, boyfriends or girlfriends; if we take them and make them live in a pigsty for a week then though they are the same person if we were meeting them for the first time then we would see them differently. The reality is that whilst apperance makes no intrinsic difference to the product perception will override that for the majority of people.

Perception sells products and pilots/instructors anyone with a commercially oriented business is selling a product to a client. The bottom line is always what the client wants and pays for.

Oh and in answer to where did this get learnt. Not on the FI course its a nurture-nature issue that begins at prep school and with parents and finishes up with university, BRNC Dartmouth, RMA Sandhurst, RAFC Cranwell or wherever else life takes you it is not a course that you take it is your whole essence, bearing is what defines you.

If you genuinely cannot tell the difference in how somebody speaks, deports themselves and behaves from observation and interaction over a reasonably short period then that reflects on you rather than on them. I also assume that you drive a 1992 Skoda because it gets you from A to B doesn't it, I also take it that you live in a caravan because it provides warm, secure accomodation without wasting money on all that unnecessary rubbish that estate agents make us feel is important like location, amenities and the like.

ReynoldsNo1: Apologies I forgot to add 'or female equivalent' to my post but as for the triumph of substance over form then that is your subjectivity speaking. You say your lawyer and doctor do not wear ties well not withstanding the female equivalent if they don't and you think that acceptable then that is your look out. Would I describe them as rank amateurs well sorry but yes as I for one would not engage their services and no most of my friends and family have a similar outlook. Then again I wouldnt send my children to one of these modern prep schools which wears polo shirts as a uniform rather than a shirt and tie either it is bad enough that too many schools are mixed these days but that is another debate entirely

Your ball....

[scubawasp]

I think if your supposed to be a professional then some sort of uniform is in order, just like any training, continuity is key.

The only thing I'd disagree with is the tie, it has no place in the cockpit.

But what is so badly wrong with shoes like DMs that do not mind oil and petrol, black trousers so your casual wear does not get ruined and a white shirt (or whatever top is appropriate to what climate your in) and during the winter the NATO pullover to help keep you warm.

Clothes may not matter for the quality of teaching, but bring a professional image and help with identifying your instructor(s)

Then again a PPL hired one of our A/C and turned up as mentioned with 4 gold bars draped on each shoulder. As I don't bother to wear them I felt very HUMBLE in his presence

[reynoldsno1]

Vortex Thing
Well, I guess we know who put the pom into pompous....

[Vortex Thing]

ReynoldsNo1

Ha.

If you really believe that someone is pompous for wanting the standards of our society that are clearly in decline to be maintained then hands up, I'm guilty.

IMHO the reason that the balance of power is shifting in Europe politically and commercially is due mostly to the erosion of these standards and the acceptance of mediocrity which starts in our schools and is portrayed by people who feel that dressing down Microsoft style is the way forward.

If we remove all outward signs of professionalism on the pretence that only the substance matters what do the next generation strive for when everyone looks the same, sounds the same, eats the same and has the same entertainment. At a guess mediocrity.

This is why our brightest and best dissapear off to countries where they are rewarded better for excellence rather than just be mediocre in comfortable shoes here.

So when we can't get any high quality British Engineered products, fly abroad for medical treatment and import just about everything just because we did not want to seem stuffy or 'pompous' by having standards and competition in society our economy dives from the point where it was at the turn of the last century to a point where we have little or no influence on the world stage and become puppets to the United States of Europe but at least they won't think were 'pompus'.

Oversimplified.. Maybe
Mountain out of a molehill...Maybe
But it takes many drops of rain to make a river...

[mad_jock]

I always used to wear a pair of blue PRIMARK chinos and a white cheap shirt. With no tie in one establishment and a tie in another.

Reason:

1. it was cheap, trousers were 4 quid a pair and shirts 5 quid.

2. you didn't need to think in the morning.

3. Trial lessons the punter has an image of what a pilot looks like. If you don't fit that image they get nervous and you have sod all chance of selling a PPL afterwards.

4. Parents of kids spending alot of money like to see the image and like to think that the money is well spent.

5. On a hot day it was by far the most comfy thing to wear.

6. Makes you different from the student so security types seem to treat you different.

7. Your a sales person. You have to fit in with what joe bloggs thinks to extract the money out of them.

Once you have started teaching them it dosn't really make a difference. You are on the next stage of the instructor student relationship.

Personally i would wear the same stuff even if it wasn't required purely because of the sales side of things

MJ

[FullyFlapped]

VORTEX

'Tex old son,

Just a little too much, I'm afraid. You see, truly great wind up merchants know when to pull back from the brink of the absurd, to leave the faithful reader with at least a little seed of doubt as to the legitimacy of the ranter, even when face value says he/she is most certainly a cretin. Never mind, I'm sure you'll develop nicely over time, although your spelling and grammar both require attention.

Anyway, my butler thinks you're a fake, so you must be ....

FF

[Vortex Thing]

Hmmm Touche not....

Fully Flapped

Why is it that because someone poses an antithetical view to yours you feel the need to challenge it quite so rudely rather than just state your view and maybe even cause a writer or another reader to change their stance when you show them something in a light they have never seen before.

I will actually admit that if you, or anyone were to think deeply about it, you may see that what I am saying isn't untrue, maybe not politcally correct but hey it's just my opinion.

Now if someone has a well thought out, coherent view or logical argument that they wish to share then isn't that what these forums are here for!

If on the other hand you decide to retort

even when face value says he/she is most certainly a cretin. Never mind, I'm sure you'll develop nicely over time, although your spelling and grammar both require attention.

and thus pitch headlong across the line of departure in an attempt to enter a battle of wits would it not be reasonably fair if were both sides were to be suitably equipped?

Pistols or swords, Sir?

[WrongWayCorrigan]

Ties aside, I know at least two male instructors who think it's ok to teach dressed up as women. One in particular wears an ill fitting ladies wig. Apparently he's a good instructor, but who cares?

[cubbuster]

I have always tried to judge people by what they do, not by how they look or say. When learning to fly I had several instructors. The best of the bunch was friendly, always on time, fully prepared and organised (in spite of the flying clubs unique concept of organisation) and meticulous in his teaching. He was also inseparable from his jeans and T-Shirt. The worst worked for a large and well-known training organisation and always wore a uniform. He made no secret of the fact that he was only instructing while waiting for his airline job and frankly it showed.

As my father used to say, "never forget that spivs and con-men always wear suites".