Side Slipping
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Side Slipping
Interesting article in this months pilot regards side slipping. Iwas shown this technique during my PPL and have sed it several times to expedite decents or drop through clouds. I have never tried a turning side slip though which sounds pretty interesting!
How many teach side slipping as a part of the PPL or during club checkouts?
Do any of you hate slipping?
How many teach side slipping as a part of the PPL or during club checkouts?
Do any of you hate slipping?
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Side slipping is not universally taught in the PPL syllabus as some aircraft are unsuitable for this technique in certain configurations. For example some aircraft with large flaps will actually mask the airflow over the elevator during a side slip. It is however a useful technique for losing height in the final stages of a forced landing.
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MJR
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MJR
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Agree with MJR about using it on 152/172 with flaps.
I occasionally fly a C120 (no flaps) where its a valuable part of the repetoir.
I'm surprised by the comment about dropping through cloud in a slip as it would be extremely difficult to coordinate by sole reference to instruments - T&S and airspeed I guess but botth instruments liable to errors in that configuration.
I demonstrate it during the PFL lesson as one (of many) techniques to control ROD towards low key position, but only on final approach if flaps are inoperative.
I occasionally fly a C120 (no flaps) where its a valuable part of the repetoir.
I'm surprised by the comment about dropping through cloud in a slip as it would be extremely difficult to coordinate by sole reference to instruments - T&S and airspeed I guess but botth instruments liable to errors in that configuration.
I demonstrate it during the PFL lesson as one (of many) techniques to control ROD towards low key position, but only on final approach if flaps are inoperative.
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I was taught it in a C152 but in a clean configuration, for the past 2 years though I have mainly flown an Archer III.
I think its definitely something worth demonstrating as part of PPL even if it isnt part of syllabus and I was probably lucky in the fact that the end of every lesson I had my instructor would have a quick 'playtime' where he would show you something not normally covered (I was also lucky enough to have the same instructor all through my PPL).
Mark 1, I have only used to drop through holes in clouds before I got my IR. As you say certain instruments are prone to erroneous indications and dont think I would like to try it blind! Final descent is another place although I have heard some guys I fly with say that their instructors on club checks have had a go at them for initiating a slip at this point.
I think its definitely something worth demonstrating as part of PPL even if it isnt part of syllabus and I was probably lucky in the fact that the end of every lesson I had my instructor would have a quick 'playtime' where he would show you something not normally covered (I was also lucky enough to have the same instructor all through my PPL).
Mark 1, I have only used to drop through holes in clouds before I got my IR. As you say certain instruments are prone to erroneous indications and dont think I would like to try it blind! Final descent is another place although I have heard some guys I fly with say that their instructors on club checks have had a go at them for initiating a slip at this point.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I was taught the side-slip during my PPL, but not the turning side-slip. The first time I saw a turning side-slip was with an instructor in the States, in a Super Cub. He demonstrated one first - in the circuit, downwind, abeam the numbers, cut power and full flaps, full right rudder, and almost-full left aileron as necessary to turn onto final. It felt like we were falling out of the sky!
Next time round, it was my turn, and I was far more gentle with the controls than the instructor. "No, not like that, like this", and the instructor pushed in full right rudder for me, and held it there, until I had the courage to use the necessary amount of aileron!
After a couple of goes, there was a twin a couple of miles out on the instrument approach. I expected ATC to have us extend downwind behind the twin. The instructor got on the radio to report "Super Cub 41E downwind, request short approach" "Super Cub 41E, short approach approved, cleared to land, number 1." What????? But, sure enough, with the aid of my new-found technique, we were on the ground and clear of the runway well before the other traffic was over the threshold.
It turns out that ATC at that airfield are very familiar with the technique, and quite often offer it to the club's taildraggers (but, as far as I can tell, only to the tail-draggers, and only to those tail-draggers operated by the that club!) Over the two months or so that I was flying out of the airport, there were about 3 or 4 occassions where ATC asked me "are you able to do a short approach?" Of course I was! I love the technique! It's just a pity that most of the noise-abatement circuits around SE England are so huge that I can't practice it more often now I'm back home.
Of course, as with all new techniques, don't try it without an instructor who's familiar with the technique, or, if you have to, at sufficient height to recover if it goes wrong, and I make no guarantees about it working on other types.
FFF
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PS - CFI & WWW - I'm sure this thread would be of interest to the Private Flying forum - any way we can copy it over there? Or should I just post a link to it?
Next time round, it was my turn, and I was far more gentle with the controls than the instructor. "No, not like that, like this", and the instructor pushed in full right rudder for me, and held it there, until I had the courage to use the necessary amount of aileron!
After a couple of goes, there was a twin a couple of miles out on the instrument approach. I expected ATC to have us extend downwind behind the twin. The instructor got on the radio to report "Super Cub 41E downwind, request short approach" "Super Cub 41E, short approach approved, cleared to land, number 1." What????? But, sure enough, with the aid of my new-found technique, we were on the ground and clear of the runway well before the other traffic was over the threshold.
It turns out that ATC at that airfield are very familiar with the technique, and quite often offer it to the club's taildraggers (but, as far as I can tell, only to the tail-draggers, and only to those tail-draggers operated by the that club!) Over the two months or so that I was flying out of the airport, there were about 3 or 4 occassions where ATC asked me "are you able to do a short approach?" Of course I was! I love the technique! It's just a pity that most of the noise-abatement circuits around SE England are so huge that I can't practice it more often now I'm back home.
Of course, as with all new techniques, don't try it without an instructor who's familiar with the technique, or, if you have to, at sufficient height to recover if it goes wrong, and I make no guarantees about it working on other types.
FFF
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PS - CFI & WWW - I'm sure this thread would be of interest to the Private Flying forum - any way we can copy it over there? Or should I just post a link to it?
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If you've not been taught slipping as a student, you've been short changed.It's a v. natural flying manoeuvre and it always seems odd that it's placed in the 'special' category. A certain flying school (in Oxfordshire!) frowned upon slipping in Pa28s due to possible fuel supply probs. Shame, because an ex school instructor (ingrained in the anti slip ways) then landed long during a forced landing (engine off) and wrote off the C152. He accepts that a timely slip would have helped.....
Didn't anyone read Biggles?
Didn't anyone read Biggles?
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In the US slips to landing are actually REQUIRED to be demonstrated.
And as for those who say you can't teach slips in a C152/172... not true. Slips with the flaps down are fine in a C152 and are not recommended in a 172 with full flaps. So you put in 10 degrees, slip the plane down and then drop the rest of the flaps before the flare. It works great.
Weasil
And as for those who say you can't teach slips in a C152/172... not true. Slips with the flaps down are fine in a C152 and are not recommended in a 172 with full flaps. So you put in 10 degrees, slip the plane down and then drop the rest of the flaps before the flare. It works great.
Weasil
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It's required in the PPL syllabus here.
Students need to be taught how to do it properly, and know about the correct configuration; rather than giving it a try on their own after reading about it in their Trevor Thom!!
However IMHO it's more important to be able to do a correct approach without having to resort to sideslipping, which can get the unwary into trouble with a slow and out of balance configuration which could lead to a spin at low level.
Students need to be taught how to do it properly, and know about the correct configuration; rather than giving it a try on their own after reading about it in their Trevor Thom!!
However IMHO it's more important to be able to do a correct approach without having to resort to sideslipping, which can get the unwary into trouble with a slow and out of balance configuration which could lead to a spin at low level.
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I was taught to slip very early on in my training, probably due to one of our runways having extremley tight circuits due to villages and a MATZ and inexperienced studes always ending up too high. Did one on my own for the first time the other day (pa.28 - full flaps). It makes me a bit nervous as I'm still not quite sure of how to spot any symptoms if it's about to go wrong. I'm aware that I must only do it to the left (right rudder) so that the pitot tube isn't sheilded and that the ASI will still over-read. Any more tips?
My compulsion when doing PFL's is that, in the real situation I'd much rather be too high and have to slip than be too low and, well..... Never really get to practice this on a PFL due to not really wanting to lose that much height, but I think I'd always end up too high in the real situation and would want to have practiced slipping.
Interestingley, at my club, one particular instructor is very keen on the manouver, another is quite happy to use it, while others shy away from it when I ask, saying that I'll be taught more about it later in the course. I was always under the impression it was part of the JAA syllabus. Am I wrong?
My compulsion when doing PFL's is that, in the real situation I'd much rather be too high and have to slip than be too low and, well..... Never really get to practice this on a PFL due to not really wanting to lose that much height, but I think I'd always end up too high in the real situation and would want to have practiced slipping.
Interestingley, at my club, one particular instructor is very keen on the manouver, another is quite happy to use it, while others shy away from it when I ask, saying that I'll be taught more about it later in the course. I was always under the impression it was part of the JAA syllabus. Am I wrong?
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I suspect that the pitot story might be one of those folkloric tales of aviation ....
Long time since I have been near the little Piper so I can't recall the pitot static configuration specifically. However, generally the system (on most, if not all, aircraft) is not overly sensitive to the pitot orientation compared to static port airflow problems. In general, any aircraft in a significant slipping attitude is going to have questionable pressure indications, for which the PEC charts are not applicable ...
Long time since I have been near the little Piper so I can't recall the pitot static configuration specifically. However, generally the system (on most, if not all, aircraft) is not overly sensitive to the pitot orientation compared to static port airflow problems. In general, any aircraft in a significant slipping attitude is going to have questionable pressure indications, for which the PEC charts are not applicable ...
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There was a thread recently about side slips/forward slips
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ward+slip+side
I flew recently with a PPL who had 140hrs and had never side slipped (i.e. for xwind landing). Unfortunately on that day there was a strong xwind and lets just say an interesting landing.
My strongest leg usually determines which way the aircraft slips
Ironically I was told that my PPL examiner would fail me if I used a forward slip on the PFL
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ward+slip+side
I flew recently with a PPL who had 140hrs and had never side slipped (i.e. for xwind landing). Unfortunately on that day there was a strong xwind and lets just say an interesting landing.
My strongest leg usually determines which way the aircraft slips
Ironically I was told that my PPL examiner would fail me if I used a forward slip on the PFL
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I learned to side slip while flying gliders. The bulk of training gliders (certainly the K13 I learned on) don't have flaps. They do have airbrakes or spoilers, which will steepen the descent. However, if you've got it badly wrong and really need to steepen your approach (remember, a go 'round isn't an option) then a hearty side slip is the answer!
I haven't ever had any problems side slipping a Warrior (-151 or -161), but usually have the fuel pump on by the time I come to do it (especially true on final!) Has anyone out there had a problem, (fuel or otherwise) or is this the aviation version of an urban myth?
I usually slip to the left but only because it gives me a far better view. It so happens that the pitot is on the left wing (for J-T, the pitot is at about mid-span, just inboard of the aileron, and towards the rear of the wing).
If anyone has had a genuine problem (personally, please - not rehashed bar talk) please let us all know. I'd rather learn from your problem rather than experience it myself...
Pronto
I haven't ever had any problems side slipping a Warrior (-151 or -161), but usually have the fuel pump on by the time I come to do it (especially true on final!) Has anyone out there had a problem, (fuel or otherwise) or is this the aviation version of an urban myth?
I usually slip to the left but only because it gives me a far better view. It so happens that the pitot is on the left wing (for J-T, the pitot is at about mid-span, just inboard of the aileron, and towards the rear of the wing).
If anyone has had a genuine problem (personally, please - not rehashed bar talk) please let us all know. I'd rather learn from your problem rather than experience it myself...
Pronto
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Static source is in the same head, with a back-up inside the cabin.
Pronto, I initially assumed the left slip was because of vilibility also. With the pressure head so far out on the wing, is a right slip really likely to be a problem?
Pronto, I initially assumed the left slip was because of vilibility also. With the pressure head so far out on the wing, is a right slip really likely to be a problem?
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Well I teach sideslips to students..think its ex8.3.4 from memory...
PA28s....problems in sideslip?! none. If you are *that* low on fuel that you have a problem during a sideslip then you shouldnt be airborne! I think my time spent sideslipping PA28s must be several hours worth now!!!
C152 - Interesting one this - I checked the approved FM of a Cessna 152 the other day and searched without success for the mention of 'no sideslips' or 'do not sideslip with flaps down'. Oh yes the 172 has restrictions but AFAIK the C152 does not and this is an extension of an urban myth 'you cant sidelsip a cessna'....One of the reasons for the sideslip limits on the 172 AFAIK were mainly structural but as one poster did say you can upset the airflow over the elevator....
Anyone got any further info on the Cessna 152?
PA28s....problems in sideslip?! none. If you are *that* low on fuel that you have a problem during a sideslip then you shouldnt be airborne! I think my time spent sideslipping PA28s must be several hours worth now!!!
C152 - Interesting one this - I checked the approved FM of a Cessna 152 the other day and searched without success for the mention of 'no sideslips' or 'do not sideslip with flaps down'. Oh yes the 172 has restrictions but AFAIK the C152 does not and this is an extension of an urban myth 'you cant sidelsip a cessna'....One of the reasons for the sideslip limits on the 172 AFAIK were mainly structural but as one poster did say you can upset the airflow over the elevator....
Anyone got any further info on the Cessna 152?
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FF: you clearly don't fly for OŁT$ (or they've changed SOPs)!Pa28s slip fine, as indeed do Boeing airliners viz the Gimlet(?) Glider!
A full flap max slip in a 152 is possible (we all knew that didn't we) but I once had a little pitch instability in the form of a gentle nodding... The manual for 1980 models doesn't have a reference to 'no sideslips', only to minimum flap required during x-wind landings; flaps are not permitted during intentional spins due to excess airspeed fears during recovery not because of 'blanking' as a previous contributor implied.
Field in Sight: If true, your examiner was odd.
Slipping left or right makes no difference in my experience though witha left side pitot a slip to the right can produce slightly more fluctuation in the IAS ( I'm guessing due to turbulence off the Propwash), but fly attitude and there's really no problem; in any case initial student slipping practice often produces a nose drop and increasing airspeed!
So can we all agree: a. slipping is a good thing, b. most of the training fleet slips nicely (yes I know Ercoupes can't) and c. it can be useful in x-wind landings as Chuck says?
A full flap max slip in a 152 is possible (we all knew that didn't we) but I once had a little pitch instability in the form of a gentle nodding... The manual for 1980 models doesn't have a reference to 'no sideslips', only to minimum flap required during x-wind landings; flaps are not permitted during intentional spins due to excess airspeed fears during recovery not because of 'blanking' as a previous contributor implied.
Field in Sight: If true, your examiner was odd.
Slipping left or right makes no difference in my experience though witha left side pitot a slip to the right can produce slightly more fluctuation in the IAS ( I'm guessing due to turbulence off the Propwash), but fly attitude and there's really no problem; in any case initial student slipping practice often produces a nose drop and increasing airspeed!
So can we all agree: a. slipping is a good thing, b. most of the training fleet slips nicely (yes I know Ercoupes can't) and c. it can be useful in x-wind landings as Chuck says?
sideslip PA28
There are sideslips and sideslips,
I think it depends on the bankangle and the fuelsystem.
I´ve tried some sideslips on our clubs PA28 yesterday. With 10 gallons of fuel in each tank. slipping with full rudder stopped the engine after 30 seconds....
Aircraft like the Piper Cub or the Citabria habe a small headertank where both maintanks are connected to. This makes their fuel system less critical to sideslips
inbalance
I think it depends on the bankangle and the fuelsystem.
I´ve tried some sideslips on our clubs PA28 yesterday. With 10 gallons of fuel in each tank. slipping with full rudder stopped the engine after 30 seconds....
Aircraft like the Piper Cub or the Citabria habe a small headertank where both maintanks are connected to. This makes their fuel system less critical to sideslips
inbalance
