Student instructed to Orbit on base
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Student instructed to Orbit on base
The scenario is the aircraft is on base leg, configured with approach flap, approach power, and ATC asks the student orbit, I think this overload for. the student so should "go-around" on to the dead side and rejoin
crosswind. Does anyone allow their students to orbit with the flaps out and low speed?
crosswind. Does anyone allow their students to orbit with the flaps out and low speed?
Orbits anywhere in the circuit are a bad idea and only lead to confusion. Orbits for students should be an absolute no-no, assuming ATC know it's a student, and even worse if low hours.
I seem to remember I got quite a few "270s" before turning base and extended downwinds (towards mountains and up to being "forgotten" by ATC) when doing my PPL training in the US. Not a big problem if you are briefed what to expect before going solo.
I think and extended downwind is much less of an issue, especially if the circuit is busy.
ATC should never instruct a student nor any pilot to orbit on base leg nor on final. Unfortunately this is not unknown. An orbit downwind should not be an issue when pilots are properly trained to do so.
Student should never orbit on base leg, if you can't continue the circuit you should Go-Around and you can do that from anywhere in the circuit patern. You should never orbit in the circuit unless told to do so by ATC and they should not do it with solo students, as stated use the STUDENT callsign. Maybe we should spend more time teaching people how to go around.
Here's an experience (quite some years ago) with a different take -
Me, back seat of a Cessna 172, experienced PPL plus instructor as a check flight for the former. In the circuit, instructed by ATC to advise turning base, call duly made, with response "caution wake vortex" (737 clearly visible just passing over the threshold). Also we hear another light aircraft joining behind us. Instructor immediately tells pilot to carry out a RH orbit. During the orbit (or maybe on completion, I can't remember) ATC calls "Instructor, report to ATC immediately on landing". I'm no expert (obviously) but even I twitched a bit!
Me, back seat of a Cessna 172, experienced PPL plus instructor as a check flight for the former. In the circuit, instructed by ATC to advise turning base, call duly made, with response "caution wake vortex" (737 clearly visible just passing over the threshold). Also we hear another light aircraft joining behind us. Instructor immediately tells pilot to carry out a RH orbit. During the orbit (or maybe on completion, I can't remember) ATC calls "Instructor, report to ATC immediately on landing". I'm no expert (obviously) but even I twitched a bit!
If a student pilot can’t orbit with anything else but clean configuration they have no business flying solo.
Flying a 360 at 70-80kts isn’t even slow flight.
This is exactly why you train this presolo.
Flying a 360 at 70-80kts isn’t even slow flight.
This is exactly why you train this presolo.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Wherever I go, there I am
Age: 43
Posts: 804
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This depends on where we are in the training program:
- PPL and in the first few flights before any thought of solo? I'd call for the go around and get instructions to rejoin the circuit. In fact, I might even take control myself and describe to my student what I'm doing and why.
- PPL and approaching solo or just after solo - I'd give the student the option and discuss with them afterward - either how they performed or what needs to happen in that scenario. I'd give examples of where we may have to execute such a maneuver outside of the circuit.
- PPL and just before the cross country work - they should be able to do it, especially if we've had any exposure to mountainous terrain where box canyon turns should have been discussed.
- CPL and after - if they cannot accomplish this simple ask, I'd be tasking them in their next solo flight to go do some steep turns with the maximum allowable flap for a 2g maneuver. Depending on where they will have their first operational job, orbits on base may be a frequent request and they can't just go missed every time ATC asks.
In all of our training activities, the instructor should weigh the benefit of any situation against the risk. Where the risk is judged to outweigh the benefit, then that situation should be avoided.
I would strongly suggest that asking an early solo student to orbit on base, or final is one of those situations.
Whenever I send early solo students in the circuit, at a controlled airfield, I will have agreed with ATC on booking out, that they are not to be asked to orbit on base, or final.
Orbiting in an uncontrolled circuit is very high risk, and should never happen!
MJ
Ps. And make sure they are using the 'Student' c/s prefix. as suggested earlier!
I would strongly suggest that asking an early solo student to orbit on base, or final is one of those situations.
Whenever I send early solo students in the circuit, at a controlled airfield, I will have agreed with ATC on booking out, that they are not to be asked to orbit on base, or final.
Orbiting in an uncontrolled circuit is very high risk, and should never happen!
MJ
Ps. And make sure they are using the 'Student' c/s prefix. as suggested earlier!
Last edited by Mach Jump; 18th Mar 2024 at 23:05. Reason: Added Ps
A million years ago, at the University of Illinois Flight Institute, it was common practice that one would be given “disciplinary vectors” if one didn’t keep the pattern tight.
Wasn’t considered a big deal, as the instructor had already taught the student how to do basic maneuvers (and in fact spin) before he got turned loose in the pattern solo
Wasn’t considered a big deal, as the instructor had already taught the student how to do basic maneuvers (and in fact spin) before he got turned loose in the pattern solo
The lack of awareness to avoid base leg orbits is invariably an ATCO tranining issue. A controller can qualify for his/her licence without any flying knowledge or experience.
Many years ago NATS would include a PPL Course in their ATCO training, that has been reduced or even now removed completely. Those self sponsoring their training get no flying experience unless they chose to do it voluntarily, and thereby fund it themselves.
I self funded my ATCO training and also a PPL. During my early post first solo circuit training I was instructed to “report final”, turned base, set up the descent, with 20 flap, power back and trimmed for the descent but then told to “orbit right” so that a scheduled flight could be lined up and depart ahead of me, not impressed to the extent I subsequently phoned the TWR ATCO to complain, he was totally oblivious to the problem that he had caused!
It's in MATS Pt 1 - following the recommendation in the report below (mentioned in post #6)
Therefore, with the exception of instructions to go-around, instructions shall not be issued to aircraft in the final stages of approaching to land that would require it to deviate from its expected flight path unless exceptional and overriding safety considerations apply.
https://assets.publishing.service.go...BABB_07-07.pdf
Therefore, with the exception of instructions to go-around, instructions shall not be issued to aircraft in the final stages of approaching to land that would require it to deviate from its expected flight path unless exceptional and overriding safety considerations apply.
https://assets.publishing.service.go...BABB_07-07.pdf
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I had a student go around with full flap, fly the circuit with full flap, orbit late downwind with full flap, and subsequently land! The first he knew about it was during the debrief! I refused to fly with him thereafter, and suggested he sought another career option. Not sure if he’s still alive!
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Not sure anymore….
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 1,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Situation that annoyed me, aircraft ahead and us in circuit asked to extend downwind, for aircraft joining long final. We were already further downwind than normally. Atc asked final traffic it's range.....6 miles!!
I said i was orbiting downwind, no one behind.
Ridiculous.
If my aircraft was solo student how far downwind would they have gone, far enough to lose site of the airfield?
More than 2 in arrivals should join overhead.
I said i was orbiting downwind, no one behind.
Ridiculous.
If my aircraft was solo student how far downwind would they have gone, far enough to lose site of the airfield?
More than 2 in arrivals should join overhead.
