View Poll Results: Do you Spin
Yes, I\'m happy to teach spinning
315
82.68%
No, I\'m not happy to teach spinning, but I will if asked
46
12.07%
I won\'t spin or teach spinning
20
5.25%
Voters: 381. This poll is closed
Flying Instructors who refuse to spin
Join Date: Dec 1999
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As the same instructor had already covered spinning with you, and not that long before I can understand him not going over it again, especially as in some aircraft the spin is not really worth the name. (I would still have covered this again myself though).
Join Date: Nov 2001
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A question to fellow Slingsby pilots:
Have any of you experienced the "high rotational" spin? If so, were any special techniques required for recovery? I have a vested interest, having just checked out on the T67C. I have undergone spin training on this aeroplane, including spins out of various aerobatic manoevres, but did not include this particular variation.
WP
Have any of you experienced the "high rotational" spin? If so, were any special techniques required for recovery? I have a vested interest, having just checked out on the T67C. I have undergone spin training on this aeroplane, including spins out of various aerobatic manoevres, but did not include this particular variation.
WP
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While not relevant to this thread the following about spinning recovery in the Javelin may be of interest.
If stalled the aircraft would almost inevitably spin.
The direction of spin is usually unpredictable, even from turn to turn.
The rotation is very slow, and the nose pitches up and down fairly regularly, through as much as seventy degrees. The rates of yaw and roll will vary with the pitching. The stick forces are very light throughout, and there is no 'kick back'' on the stick. However, the rudder moves fiercely fully one way and the other, and the forces may be extremely heavy; it is recommended that the feet are merely kept lightly on it throughout the spin. The airspeed varies from "off the clock" to about ninety knots.
When the aircraft is clearly in a spin take the following action;
i) With the control column fully back apply full aileron in the same direction as the spin.
ii) With full aileron applied, move the control column fully forward into the corner.
iii) Keep the feet lightly on the rudder pedals.
It is unlikely that this action will have any effect for one or even two turns; certainly it seldom has any immediate result. The control column should be held fully in the corner; the direction of spin may reverse, and in this case the control column should be held right forward and moved sharply fully over into the new direction of spin.
No force should be used to oppose any rudder movement.
Recovery generally follows one of two main patterns, type (i) being the more usual:
i) The rotation ceases, and the aircraft hangs in a nose-down attitude for a second or two. However the control column must still be held fully in its corner until the aircraft does a sharp nose-down pitch or "bunt". Minus 2 1/2g is about the usual figure for this and is quite unmistakable.
Once the aircraft has done this, the spin has stopped.
The speed rises rapidly, and only then should the controls be centralized, and the aircraft eased out of the dive. Attempts to centralise the controls and recover in the stage when the rotation has ceased, but before the aircraft has "bunted", will lead to a further spin with delayed recovery.
ii) After taking recovery action, the aircraft enters a fast spiral in a steep diving attitude. The spiral may be in the same direction as the applied aileron, or against it, but this condition may usually be recognised because: a) the pitching ceases, b) the speed rises, c) the rate of rotation is steady and fast. Once the speed is over 200 knots, the controls may be centralized, and the aircraft eased out of the dive. The rudder will centralist itself when recovery is complete, and it should be left to its own devices.
If stalled the aircraft would almost inevitably spin.
The direction of spin is usually unpredictable, even from turn to turn.
The rotation is very slow, and the nose pitches up and down fairly regularly, through as much as seventy degrees. The rates of yaw and roll will vary with the pitching. The stick forces are very light throughout, and there is no 'kick back'' on the stick. However, the rudder moves fiercely fully one way and the other, and the forces may be extremely heavy; it is recommended that the feet are merely kept lightly on it throughout the spin. The airspeed varies from "off the clock" to about ninety knots.
When the aircraft is clearly in a spin take the following action;
i) With the control column fully back apply full aileron in the same direction as the spin.
ii) With full aileron applied, move the control column fully forward into the corner.
iii) Keep the feet lightly on the rudder pedals.
It is unlikely that this action will have any effect for one or even two turns; certainly it seldom has any immediate result. The control column should be held fully in the corner; the direction of spin may reverse, and in this case the control column should be held right forward and moved sharply fully over into the new direction of spin.
No force should be used to oppose any rudder movement.
Recovery generally follows one of two main patterns, type (i) being the more usual:
i) The rotation ceases, and the aircraft hangs in a nose-down attitude for a second or two. However the control column must still be held fully in its corner until the aircraft does a sharp nose-down pitch or "bunt". Minus 2 1/2g is about the usual figure for this and is quite unmistakable.
Once the aircraft has done this, the spin has stopped.
The speed rises rapidly, and only then should the controls be centralized, and the aircraft eased out of the dive. Attempts to centralise the controls and recover in the stage when the rotation has ceased, but before the aircraft has "bunted", will lead to a further spin with delayed recovery.
ii) After taking recovery action, the aircraft enters a fast spiral in a steep diving attitude. The spiral may be in the same direction as the applied aileron, or against it, but this condition may usually be recognised because: a) the pitching ceases, b) the speed rises, c) the rate of rotation is steady and fast. Once the speed is over 200 knots, the controls may be centralized, and the aircraft eased out of the dive. The rudder will centralist itself when recovery is complete, and it should be left to its own devices.
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Waldo,
Although I don't have a lot of time in the Slingsby, I have deliberately abused both the A and 200M models without being able to provoke any abnormal behaviour.
The aircraft gave warning before departure in every case was stopped within a quarter turn.
Due to height restrictions we could not experiment so much with advanced spins.
It's a lovely aeroplane.
Although I don't have a lot of time in the Slingsby, I have deliberately abused both the A and 200M models without being able to provoke any abnormal behaviour.
The aircraft gave warning before departure in every case was stopped within a quarter turn.
Due to height restrictions we could not experiment so much with advanced spins.
It's a lovely aeroplane.
Join Date: Nov 2001
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Thanks for the comforting words Miserlou - during my spin training (up to 4 turns both right and left) there were no unexpected manoevres, but the POH does mention high rotational spins are possible!
It's back to practicing the aeros for me!
It's back to practicing the aeros for me!
Not sure about the T67 but the Bulldog has a nice high-rot spin mode if the stick is moved forward during a spin whilst maintaining pro-spin rudder - a significant push force is required. Recovery involves returning to full pro-spin inputs and then using a standard spin recovery, if you reverse the rudder without the stick being on the backstop there is a delayed recovery.
Rate of rotation is significant and some people feel "spun-up" for a significant time afterwards.
Words to the wise: do not try this unless you are proficient/comfortable with spins, start at 10,000 ft, wear a parachute and pre-brief a height at which to start abandonment (4000ft?)
Rate of rotation is significant and some people feel "spun-up" for a significant time afterwards.
Words to the wise: do not try this unless you are proficient/comfortable with spins, start at 10,000 ft, wear a parachute and pre-brief a height at which to start abandonment (4000ft?)
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Both the Slings and the Bulldog have similar tail feather configuration. This is the reason for their idiosyncracies.
Accurate and correct spin recovery technique is the key to coping with them.
Accurate and correct spin recovery technique is the key to coping with them.
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Top o the morning. On topic i have spin training coming up for my ppl. I am undertaking an IAA ppl, and for this they want all ppl students to have completed spin training, but in saying this, the student has to be demonstrated spin recovery, they dont actually have to carry it out themselves, so its just a matter of sitting there and watching while the instructor throws it around. I will be doing it in a c150 and im feeling a wee bit nervous. I have done stalls before a few years back and incipient spins, where the wing dropped. But this was a few years back. Im just wondering what to expect for spinning?? Is it a violent manoeuvre?? What are the sensations?? I would really appreciate it if someone could provide a little insight into what i can expect to ease my nerves a little. Im will be spinning with my regular instructor, who i trust.
Many thanks!
regards
Also i thought i would mention, that if it was not mandatory, i would without doubt ask my instructor anyway to demo spin recovery to me anyway, as a little confidence booster and to prepare me for anything adverse.
Many thanks!
regards
Also i thought i would mention, that if it was not mandatory, i would without doubt ask my instructor anyway to demo spin recovery to me anyway, as a little confidence booster and to prepare me for anything adverse.
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waldopepper42,
Incipient spin off manouever recoveries are indeed the best things to practice if you are going to aerobat the Firefly. Provided you apply the incipient spin recovery as soon as you recognise any undemanded roll the aeroplane will come out. As hugh flung-dung pointed out with the Bulldog, the high-rotational spin mode in the Firefly tends to occur when the stick is moved forward before opposite rudder is applied during a fully-developed spin recovery. During the subsequent correct recovery, the stick may go to the forward stop before rotation stops, sometimes resulting in a bunt as the aircraft breaks out of the spin.
Firefly rates of descent in a fully-developed spin can be quite high; the M260 is in the order of 7000 fpm. I am not familiar with the civilian versions of the aeroplane, but I fly both the M160 and M260 at work, and the full spin recovery techniques are subtely different for each type. Basically the M160 uses the 'standard' spin recovery technique, whereas in the M260 there is a 1 second pause between applying full opposite rudder and moving the control column centrally forward.
As regards jumping out, bearing in mind the 7000 fpm descent, we use transition level + height of the ground as a minimum abandonment flight level. In practice, with 1000' to go to minimum abandonment, I'd open the canopy early as a last ditch attempt to alter the spin mode before deciding to step outside.
ST
Incipient spin off manouever recoveries are indeed the best things to practice if you are going to aerobat the Firefly. Provided you apply the incipient spin recovery as soon as you recognise any undemanded roll the aeroplane will come out. As hugh flung-dung pointed out with the Bulldog, the high-rotational spin mode in the Firefly tends to occur when the stick is moved forward before opposite rudder is applied during a fully-developed spin recovery. During the subsequent correct recovery, the stick may go to the forward stop before rotation stops, sometimes resulting in a bunt as the aircraft breaks out of the spin.
Firefly rates of descent in a fully-developed spin can be quite high; the M260 is in the order of 7000 fpm. I am not familiar with the civilian versions of the aeroplane, but I fly both the M160 and M260 at work, and the full spin recovery techniques are subtely different for each type. Basically the M160 uses the 'standard' spin recovery technique, whereas in the M260 there is a 1 second pause between applying full opposite rudder and moving the control column centrally forward.
As regards jumping out, bearing in mind the 7000 fpm descent, we use transition level + height of the ground as a minimum abandonment flight level. In practice, with 1000' to go to minimum abandonment, I'd open the canopy early as a last ditch attempt to alter the spin mode before deciding to step outside.
ST
Awesome but Affordable
Henry Crun,
With regard to the spin in the Javelin, at least the Gloster variety, I well remember while at school at Fakenham in the early 1950's the solo Javelin aerobatic ace from CFE at West Raynham was doing a practice at medium level in an early mark.
He stalled and departed from controlled flight at the top of a looping manoever and settled rapidly into the flattest erect spin I ever saw until I encountered an unprovoked flat inverted spin in one of the Tiger Club's Super Tigers in, I recall, 1963.
The rotations seemed to be quite leisurely and after around four turns the pilot elected to use the alternative Martin Baker let down and left the aircraft to its own devices. The spin continued to impact only around a mile or so away so, as a keen ATC cadet, I pedalled my bike in that direction to be first on the scene.
The aircraft was in a field and essentially intact apart from the canopy and being a bit flattened on the undersurface. The T mounted tailplane was broken into a grossly annhedralled shape. No fire ensued and after a few minutes the emergency services, both civli and military arrived to assume control.
They quickly escorted me away from my interested and close viewing of, what was then, the latest fighter in RAF service. Much to my disgust at the time.
I believe the Javelin was immediately banned from aerobatics pending the inevitable investigation.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
With regard to the spin in the Javelin, at least the Gloster variety, I well remember while at school at Fakenham in the early 1950's the solo Javelin aerobatic ace from CFE at West Raynham was doing a practice at medium level in an early mark.
He stalled and departed from controlled flight at the top of a looping manoever and settled rapidly into the flattest erect spin I ever saw until I encountered an unprovoked flat inverted spin in one of the Tiger Club's Super Tigers in, I recall, 1963.
The rotations seemed to be quite leisurely and after around four turns the pilot elected to use the alternative Martin Baker let down and left the aircraft to its own devices. The spin continued to impact only around a mile or so away so, as a keen ATC cadet, I pedalled my bike in that direction to be first on the scene.
The aircraft was in a field and essentially intact apart from the canopy and being a bit flattened on the undersurface. The T mounted tailplane was broken into a grossly annhedralled shape. No fire ensued and after a few minutes the emergency services, both civli and military arrived to assume control.
They quickly escorted me away from my interested and close viewing of, what was then, the latest fighter in RAF service. Much to my disgust at the time.
I believe the Javelin was immediately banned from aerobatics pending the inevitable investigation.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
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G-KEST: IIRC there was no blanket ban on all aeros.
The pilots notes had a specific prohibition against aerobatics in the looping plane from the time the aircraft entered service because of the danger that you describe.
A number of aircraft were lost in similar circumstances because pilots did not observe this restriction.
The pilots notes had a specific prohibition against aerobatics in the looping plane from the time the aircraft entered service because of the danger that you describe.
A number of aircraft were lost in similar circumstances because pilots did not observe this restriction.
Awesome but Affordable
Thanks Henry,
At the time my membership of the school ATC squadron, number 1361, did not give me access to such esoteric and certainly "restricted" publications as the Pilots Notes or service release information on the Javelin. I am now better informed, thanks to you.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
At the time my membership of the school ATC squadron, number 1361, did not give me access to such esoteric and certainly "restricted" publications as the Pilots Notes or service release information on the Javelin. I am now better informed, thanks to you.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
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Interesting reading throughout the thread. Any who have experienced delayed recoveries (I remember WWW's from 8000ft) considered the possibility of the altitude the spin was commenced at adversly affecting the recovery due to the air not being quite so thick? Came from an interesting discussion I had with an old and wise instructor when I was starting out in the game after the CAA consulted him about an instructor in another part of the country who was spinning with a student. The 152 aerobat didn't come out for a frightnening long period of time after numerous recovery initiations and (when the situation became more urgent) doors opening/power application/pair of them shifting their weight from the dashboard to the baggage area. And please no nonsense about the same IAS for a stall please.
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Spinning????
I spun today in a PA-38 which was cleared for spinning. The POH (AFE Pilots Guide) describes the tomahawk as an aircraft with classic spin characteristics.
I spun and recovered twice and found it OK, (I haven't spun any other aircraft mind!).
The spin does tighten up but with the correct recovery procedure it recovers. Some don't recover very well and often you only find out when you try it.
I would cerainly refuse to spin in an aircraft not certified for it. It should be practiced once in a while but remember this is an aerobatic manouvere and one where control has to be regained.
Perhaps we should all do an hour of aerobatics a year to keep our hand in??
I spun and recovered twice and found it OK, (I haven't spun any other aircraft mind!).
The spin does tighten up but with the correct recovery procedure it recovers. Some don't recover very well and often you only find out when you try it.
I would cerainly refuse to spin in an aircraft not certified for it. It should be practiced once in a while but remember this is an aerobatic manouvere and one where control has to be regained.
Perhaps we should all do an hour of aerobatics a year to keep our hand in??
