Flying Instructors who refuse to spin

[slim_slag]

muppet

There is nothing wrong with spinning PA38s I do it, the guy who tought me, did it, my examiner for my instructor rating made me do it and I love it. They behave perfectly, enter properly, recover gently, wait....the spin WILL tighten (which I think is where some may faulter) and then recovery occurs.

Sure... another "I've spun a traumahawk and survived" story

But I don't believe there is evidence that the Tomahawk actually passed the FAA's stall/spin recovery tests for initial certification, and if it was to do so today it would fail. The fatality rate for unrecovered spins is several times that of equivalent trainers. I guess at the end of the day its all a risk/reward analysis, which should change if you carry passengers.

I've never spun one, never will (intentionally), but I hear the tail twists and turns quite spectacularly during the maneuver. Have you taken a look behind you, is it as hairy as they say?

To the thread, people should not think they know how to spin an airplane purely because they have the three spins required to get their instructor's ticket. Sometimes a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Beggs/Muller, or even just letting go of the controls can be a safer approach.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

IMHO it is far more important to teach recognition of and control at slow airspeeds than doing loads of spins, and learning to recognise and break the chain that could lead to a stall/spin (poor vis, distraction on a glide approach etc) because lets face it, it's not going to happen unless a lot of other things have already gone wrong. We encourage people to go for a spin in the aerobat with our aerobatic instructor as part of an aerobatic sequence, but they don't have to if they don't want to. Many students and instructors simply don't have the stomach for it.

As for the Tomahawk, well if you haven't spun one then I guess you'll never know! The problem there is often people do a half hearted recovery, which will work well enough in a 152, but the Tomahawk requires the recovery to be effected properly.

Sadly in my years in the industry, the only people I have known who have spun their way to kingdom come have been commercial pilots showing off with idiotic manouvres like a low pass and steep pull up, who should have known better.


slim-slag says:
"I've never spun one, never will (intentionally), but I hear the tail twists and turns quite spectacularly during the maneuver. Have you taken a look behind you, is it as hairy as they say?"

Ah yes the old tail wobbling story. It's an old wives tale. Next time you shut an aircraft down, listen to the airframe shudder. That's what happens in a spin, and not just to Tomahawks! As for certification, well read the POH.

[D 129]

As a related question ...

Just when did the (JAA) UK PPL stop requiring spin training ?. (Apparenty more people died from practicing rather than real accidents ... ).

When I was doing my PPL last year, I was shocked to find that it was no longer included. I've been gliding 20 years and although I'm not up to date with current teaching pratice, teaching spins was routine until a few years back. It was considered rather important because gross mishandling at the top of a winch launch coud see you spin in. Indeed, when undergoing instruction you would do a spin or two once every few flights to keep current - which took the fear out of it for new pilots.

By the way, "generally speaking" do light aircraft spin more aggressively than gliders ?. I'm thinking here of what a glider's long span might do ... rate of rotation ... (Most of the 2 seat gliders I flew were pretty docile - instructor holding it firmly in the spin before letting the student recover...).

I'll be doing my CPL soon - so will be reacquainted woith spinning soon ...

Thanks for any input ...

D 129

[slim_slag]

CFI

Ah yes the old tail wobbling story. It's an old wives tale. Next time you shut an aircraft down, listen to the airframe shudder. That's what happens in a spin, and not just to Tomahawks! As for certification, well read the POH.

Thanks. I admit, I've never flown a tomahawk, and I don't even know off the top of my head where I would go to find one! Round these parts it's hard to find something as underpowered as that on an FBO line, and I don't know anybody who owns one.

I've never heard the airframe shudder when I reduce power when I am spinning, but I use proper aerobatic certified planes. Do you mean buffet? I think that is different. Maybe I missed the shudder, I shall listen harder next time As for the tail twisting like I heard described, never seen that either, but I will look harder next time too I am happy to accept it is an old wives tale.

I think the problem with the POH is that the 'production version' of the tomahawk does not have the same airframe as the 'test version' where the original spin certification was granted. I think it was the Swedes who later put the plane through the FAA certification process, and it failed. The NTSB were so concerned that they requested the FAA certify the plane again. Not sure what happened next.

As I said, getting into a plane involves a risk/reward analysis (as does getting into the car to the airport). If the airframe is not certified for spinning, and there is uncertainty, then some would not spin it. If you want to do so, then I think you should. Insert smart ass comments about becoming a test pilot here

cheers

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

I'm not an expert on the history of the Tomahawk, but I understand that initial spin problems were in the prototype, which had a low tail and less wing strength. Anyone out there know the full story?

The POH is serial number specific as required by CASA . So it's unlikely that I have the wrong one. Ref section 4.43 "Spins" which is in the "normal procedures" section..

Having said all that I prefer my students to do their spinning in a C152 Aerobat so they can see some other upside downy type things at the same time, and hopefully enjoy the experience a bit more!

OK maybe the word "shudder" was a little unspecific, but that is the way I describe the movement of the airframe and the sound it makes when you shut a little aeroplane down.

[slim_slag]

CFI

Anyone out there know the full story?

A quick seach on the NTSB web site found this NTSB Letter to the FAA.

OK maybe the word "shudder" was a little unspecific, but that is the way I describe the movement of the airframe and the sound it makes when you shut a little aeroplane down.

Shudder is a good word, I like it I just got back from putzing around in the aerobatics box with a Great Lakes. I could not get the airframe to make any strange noises/vibrations when shutting down power to idle, entering a spin or recovering. I turned around to watch the tail during the procedure - easy as it's an open cockpit biplane and you just stick your head out the side - and didn't see any nasty movements. Note to oneself: Hold expensive sunglasses on tight when back of head is pointing into wind, and make sure stomach is settled before spinning looking to rear

Having said all that I prefer my students to do their spinning in a C152 Aerobat so they can see some other upside downy type things at the same time, and hopefully enjoy the experience a bit more!

Indeed! It is so difficult to resist the temptation to go straight into an Immelmann or hammerhead when pulling out from a Spin. Cannot do that in a tomahawk, - or maybe some of you can

[Wing Root]

Slightly off topic perhaps but has anyone here done any spinning in the Diamond DA20-C1 Evolutions? I’m interested to know how they perform in the spinning department.

[African Drunk]

Where I used to instruct in SA we had 2 ppl's kill themselves + pax when they went spinning. I believe it gives some ppl's the idea to impress friends with a semi-aerobatic flight. In all my time flying I have never spun by accident nor seen a student come close. Most times when I have spun in C152+PA28 we had to attempt them more than once often without success. I firmly believe we should concentrate on stall/spin avoidance rather than showing them a new way to kill themselves.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

My sentiments exactly.
Had an incident a few years back when a cocky PPL decided to "impress" his 3 pax by deliberately putting a 172RG into a spin. They were lucky that time and lived to tell the tale (eventually). Quite apart from anything else, he was well beyond the W+B limits for utility catagory, and he put the wheels and flaps down for good measure. (the undercarriage had all sorts of probs after that)
When one of the pax finally confessed as to why he had been too terrified to continue his flying training, the CFI gave the pilot a well deserved bollocking.
His response was to argue with the CFI that he was only doing what his instructor had shown him. Monkey see, monkey do. All he could do to justify his actions was yell at the pax for "dobbing him in" He just didn't get it! I was all for barring him for life, but he had a nice little spot on the club committee so he was allowed to continue his suicidal flying. Funny that no-one ever wanted to be his passenger ever again.

Before an aeroplane goes into a spin it has to pass thorugh the folowing stages. Decreasing airspeed. Less effective controls. Abnormally high nose attitude. Stall warner. Out of balance. Wing drop. A pilot who can't recognise these warning signs and simply relax the back pressure to return to normal flight needs a better instructor.

[big pistons forever]

CFI

You are quite right in insisting that spin recognition shouldbe properly taught but I m not sure I agree with your progression to the stall/spin. A significant nose high attitude is not necessarilly required to stall ( eg a C150 at gross will stall in an almost level flight attitude with 40 deg flaps ) , not all aircraft have stall warning systems and the ones that do don't always work ( eg the old Piper elec system ). The progression can go pretty fast in the wrong circumstances. ( eg heavy load, high density altitude, unintentional uncoordination due to illusion created by drift etc ).
Also older types are generally more unforgiving of low speed mishandling than than C150/172/PA28's. I still think spin entry and recovery should be taught and I will continue to do so eventhough I don't have to. But as always it is proceeded by a complete examination of slow flight including the game of " try to make the ASI go to zero without stalling" a great exercise in high power low airspeed handling and aerodynamic stall recognition.

[Tonic Please]

In my training...

When I was in Victoria BC, Canada doing my PPL training, my instructor showed me the spin during the slow flight, stalls, steep turns part of the course so it fitted in well. We were out in the practise area, and for those who know the CYYJ area, its the one over the Duncan airstrip.
Went upto 3,000, did the HASEL check (he did) and I just tried to literally record everything he said and did so i did not screw us both up if I forgot something.

He had full power, "clean" config...and this was a cessna 152 and certified for spins. It scared the livin daylights outta me, and I was suprised I needed to hold my neck muscles tight during the maneouver. Anyhow, we recovered, with the AH spinning uncontrollably. Partial panel you could say. So I had a go the second time, but by following through, so he did two you could say. Again, i remembered what he said and did, and we went over and down again.

Got to my go, and during the nose UP attitude, I for some reason looked left slightly which rolled the wings because of my right arm lifting up for some reason. This screwed the spin entry up, and he shouted he had control and recovered from almost vertical with 0 airspeed. Anyway, i eventually got the hang of it after doing about 2 on my own and felt very comfortable with it.

However, on a side note, I am very suprised that some FIs refuse to do it with students. I feel it should be down to the instructor to TEACH the student, and not have a "lets forget the spin i dont like doing them" attitude. If you found out they crashed (god help them)...then it would be YOU at fault for not showing them should they have got into a position to stall and spin.

Smooth skies to all

[40 yearflyer]

Horses for Courses

This spin thread has been going round and round for some time !
I hope my post does not bring this thread to a natural close. My record in that respect is not good!

Now the tomahawk sounds interesting. The twisting tail saga sounds vaguely familiar - I recall the Vampire T11 twisted it's tails and you could see them doing so in the rearview mirror. As the machine proved difficult to recover, either through old age or mishandling, many stories circulated about jettisoning the canopy as a certain cure for this particular problem.

The Chipmunk needed 'strakes' to cure something to do with the spin but the exact explanation has escaped me for the moment.

The Jet Provost was spun solo by students in the 60's until a few - perhaps 2 - mishandled the recovery and took the Martin Baker option.

The Jet Provost MK5 had an interesting VERY high speed rotation if you applied half rudder in the recovery. Nystagmus was something to see ! If that is the name for leaving your eyeballs several degrees behind the nose of the aircraft.

The Slingsby had a similiar very high rotation in the spin if you left power on after a spin off manoeuvre. It would stop pointing vertically down for a couple of seconds just to fool you then spin like nothing on earth about 6000 ft per minute rate of descent.

The 152 was a poor excuse for a spin.

The Zlin is ok but always 'lumpy' in recovery.

A 'story' - I went to Florida this girl told me, and the American who taught me spinning said I should learn to be able to recover with the aircraft 'pointing' in a certain direction because, and I quote, 'Ya never know when you might spin on 'finals' and ya would want to be pointing at the runway' ! !

Most pilots 'hate' spinning because it is the one manouevre where a control input actually does nothing for the first few seconds except to make things worst ! i.e. the spin speeds up - conservation of mass as per the ice skater - I believe.

Get checked out on you particular steed. If you don't understand B over A ratio the you shouldn't be spinning.

[bluskis]

If it wasn't for the blonde tresses wafting in the fresh air in my frontal vision from under and behind a leather flying helmet, ( my instructor was an older woman of about 25 years), I believe I might have chucked flying in on the spot.

The up and over, followed by the rotating of green and brown patchwork fields is still etched in my memory.

After several spinning exercises I actually began to enjoy it, and on moving to Cherokees many years later, made it a habit to go spinning several times a year.

Now with the realisation that if anything goes wrong an inextricable situation exists, I no longer indulge.

As current airplanes are usually not cleared for spinning, and are not as prone as the old timers to enter a spin, is there really a need to take the risks of spinning aircraft in the UK perhaps tens of times weekly?

The powers that be appear to have decided that flying training should target flying in a manner such as to avoid spinning, and accident statistics seem to confirm the correctness of that decision.

That is not to say spins do not form part of aerobatic flying, but aerobatic flying is not PPL flying, and not all instructors will necessarily feel comfortable with spinning, particularly in non aerobatic aircraft.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Bluskis:

You should not confuse aerobatic aircraft with aircraft approved for spins.

There is quite a large difference between the two types.

Aircraft approved for spins are by definition safe to spin.

Even if they are spinning in the UK.

Cat Driver:

[Croqueteer]

Do not under estimate the 150/152 spin with 20 flap. Years ago I was giving a PPL with a gung ho attitude to his flying a club check, and I talked him into a 20 flap spin, wich happens very suddenly, and he pulled the stick hard back and tried to stop the roll with aileron. Nedless to say, the 150 kept winding up until I took control. He said to me after that he thought he was dead, then noticed the grin starting to show on my face. The point is, because it was unexpected, he followed his natural instincts instead of getting the boot in. I have been out of instructing for a long time, but I do not think enough effort goes into showing advanced students the subtle traps, probably because a lot of new instructors don't know them themselves. Before any comments are made, I new the guy well enough to know he would not be upset by such an experience, and in fact, he thanked me. Have fun.

[big pistons forever]

Croquetier

All cessna's have a lower allowable positive load factor with flaps down. It is only 3.5 G on the C-150. Also the flaps will blank the tail, hence the exciting ride, so all in all your story does not in my opinion represent good flying practices.

[Croqueteer]

BPF Rubbish! I taught on 150s for over 1200hrs, and if you don't demo 20 flap stalls, you are failing your students, naturally you make sure the a/c is not oversrtessed. With a handle like yours, I thought you would have a more robust attitude to flying.

[big pistons forever]

Croquteer

I guess I was not clear. My point is your post talked about letting a student spin a C-150 with the flaps down. I stand by what I said. This is poor airmanship because an over agressive pull out could overstress the aircraft. Also the certification standards only required cessna to demonstrate safe spin caracteristic with the flaps up. That why the airplane is required to have a placard in full view of the pilot that lists the relavent limitations and specifically states quote Intentional spins with flaps extended are prohibited unquote. ( See the limitations section of the POH ).
Yes I do include a full demonstration of the stall in all configurations and attitudes but I will NEVER let a spin develop with the flaps down.

[Croqueteer]

BPF The chap was not a student but an over confident PPL. How many people have killed themselves losing control of a cessna in the landing configuration?

[nonradio]

As BPF says Intentional spins are prohibited in 152s but incipient aren't so I suspect Croqeteers point holds good if it didn't 'wind up' too much . The fear Cessna Inc has is for excess airspeed during recovery or even entry given their rather benign (spinning) characteristics. The sometimes rapid departure with flap down is well known and should be part of flying training on type. Especially for gung ho chaps