Forced Landings Without Power

[keni010]

Well done that man, not many people can say they landed at Heathrow! I bet you floated for a bit!!

[Pull what]

I used to land there twice a day sometimes but not in a Cessna 172 and yes I did float for an awfully long way!

[gemma10]

I was taught that immediately after power loss, gain as much height as possible with the energy that`s available prior to the glide.

[justmaybe]

Originally Posted by gemma10

I was taught that immediately after power loss, gain as much height as possible with the energy that`s available prior to the glide.

Well see how much height you gain from average GA single bumbling along at 100 kts if engine completely and suddenly quits! Hardly worth the effort.

[Centaurus]

I was taught that immediately after power loss, gain as much height as possible with the energy that`s available prior to the glide.

Well see how much height you gain from average GA single bumbling along at 100 kts if engine completely and suddenly quits! Hardly worth the

That is the problem with instructor generalisations; in this case engine failure and immediate actions.

If I recall from my Air Force training several decades back, the immediate pull up to gain height following engine failure, was meant to apply for low flying sequences. By low flying, I meant 200 feet which in those days was military low flying.

Obviously in a light single like a C172, by the time you have recovered from the shock of a sudden engine failure, 20 knots is lost in a flash so a pull up brings its own dangers and that is an immediate bunt again to fine-tune best glide speed.

So much depends on the IAS at time of engine failure. Where you can zoom rapidly another 200 feet if flying already at 200 ft, it gives breathing space if only for a few seconds. But again, so much depends on the skill of the pilot.

But as far as a pre-flight briefing is concerned, before undergoing a dual low flying sequence, it is up to the instructor to explain all the factors affecting any decision to trade speed for height. That includes airspeed at time of engine failure

[LexAir]

Good point Centaurus (as always!).
When are we going to get rid of what I refer to as "Bomber Command" (stuck back in the war) mentality?

[Mach Jump]

Quote:
I was taught that immediately after power loss, gain as much height as possible with the energy that`s available prior to the glide.
Quote:
Well see how much height you gain from average GA single bumbling along at 100 kts if engine completely and suddenly quits!

Most GA pilots will not have sufficient excess speed to zoom climb, and, as has been said, attempting to do so brings it's own hazards, on the other hand, most pilots tend to waste a lot of time, and height establishing the glide

I've found a more useful philosophy for GA training is:

'Conserve height, whilst reducing speed to the best glide speed.'

You can then expand on this to include the zoom climb case, if appropriate.


MJ

[TheOddOne]

on the other hand, most pilots tend to waste a lot of time, and height establishing the glide

I was taught to teach 'on loss of power, give a good 6 on the trim wheel. This will give a pallpark glide speed in PA28 and C172'

So I pass this on. Seems to work. Takes 2 or 3 seconds, then eyes out to pick a field. Probably zero altitude loss. Disaster on an aircraft like the Rallye with a much higher-geared trim system, though, so type-specific.

TOO

[briani]

I think that the big problem is that once a student has completed training, he/she will not try another practice unless it is required on a check or type conversion flight. Most 'experienced' pilots who I checked or tested had completely forgotten any sort of FLWP procedure. I always emphasised the need for practice - even suggesting that they demonstrated the excercise to their passengers when on local flights. If the failure occured at the usual operating altitude of 2000' to 3000', I taught ; set up glide, trim, turn into wind (this gave them a better idea of the landing direction) and then select a landing area (preferably on the left hand side if possible) and the 1000' area which would be kept in sight. A turn towards that point would then be commenced while checking for cause of failure (to include carb heat and fuel pump (if fitted) on, then vital actions (SIMULATE fuel/electrics off, harness secure, hatches unlatched) engine warms every 800' or so, hopefully, by then, the a/c position would be at the 1000' area for a turn to base leg. A Mayday call would normally follow the vital actions if over hospitable land, but if the failure occurs over sea or mountainous area I taught a prompt Mayday as soon as the engine stopped. If the height on base leg was low turn on to finsl sooner, but if high, a turning away and then back to final could be made to adjust the height. Once the student was prepared to stake his life on clearing any boundary fence or obstacles on the final approach, he could lower flaps to bring the planned touchdown point closer to the threshhold. Also emphasised the importance of back pressure on the controls after touchdown to keep weight off the noswheel in case of rough ground.

[Parson]

When flying SE light aircraft, I often pull the throttle and set up a glide for practice. Was taught 4 turns on the trim for a 152 which works pretty well - as noted, the quicker you get into a stable glide, the better the PFL usually turns out to be.

briani - turning into wind is widely taught but by doing that, you could be turning away from the best field and miss it. On my CPL test I managed to find a grass strip for my PFL - Examiner just sat back and laughed....

[BigEndBob]

50% of candidates on Skill tests chose fields too far away.
Finding themselves into wind (I arrange that) they simply look ahead and chose a field which they have no idea whether they will reach.
On debrief I always tell them they will always reach the field immediately below, if the aircraft fell out of the sky!
So start looking there first outwards.

[blind pew]

Most of the replies aren't answering the question ..ie how it is flown and not the cockpit procedures.
It wasn't until I got into glider instruction and alpine flying that I really understood how it should be taught.
The French teach the constant angle...as in constant angle to the aiming point.
This I demonstrated with an approx 20 degree angle from the wing tip.
Patter..bisect the angle between wingtip and vertical...then bisect that..should give 22 1/2 degrees ..but the eyeball/brain flattens that angle naturally.
So you keep the aiming point at that angle to the wing tip.
Secondly the BGA patter talks about detail to judge height...windows frames...telegraph poles..legs on cows..etc.
Thirdly the Zig Zag circuit demonstartion.
Having had more chop flights than any other student who passed their commercial pilots license I know the problems...most instructors don't teach how to judge the perspective.
The other problem in judging the heights is knowing the size of the objects....in ireland the fields are much smaller than in east Anglia..and pine trees in the higher alps are smaller than in the lowlands.
Teaching the constant angle approach allows a pilot to carry out a forced landing wherever they fly and not just in the locality of their home base.
I failed my first FLWP as I was set up on the largest field on the Isle of Wight and consequently too high...my second was set up after a snow storm...

[Genghis the Engineer]

>>>Obviously in a light single like a C172, by the time you have recovered from the shock of a sudden engine failure, 20 knots is lost in a flash*

Negative.

In a light single, almost invariably reducing power will cause a natural pitch down.


Height will be lost, but speed will increase.

G

[foxmoth]

Whilst I agree with those that say a full engine failure is least likely you still have to train for it, though partial should also be properly covered. There are a number of different ways of flying this but the main thing is to get the aircraft properly set up and form SOME sort of plan of where you are going. Biggest faults I see:-
Taking too long to pick a field and form a plan - too many try and pick a perfect field, it needs emphasising that almost any field will be a compromise and if you leave it too long you cut down on choice.
Missing cause of failure (also forgotten, though not quite as important, mayday and crash)checks - as said, not great landing perfectly, hitting a rabbit hole then finding you had an empty tank of fuel one side and loads in the other!
Taking flap too early - Flap should really only be used in the last 1,000' to bring the touchdown point back, above that height should be adjusted by manouvering the aircraft.
The subject of landing downwind is an interesting one, whilst not to be ruled out it makes judging the approach very difficult, so even with an upslope most people will go sailing over the top into the forest/village etc. beyond!

[BigEndBob]

I point the nose where I want to land.
Keep best glide or better still slightly higher.
Then use flap as an air brake if diving causes speed to increase.
Just a variation of a powered approach.

[sheppey]

During dual instruction in a Cessna 152 the sequences was gliding and gliding turns in the training area. . We were several hundred yards off the coast at 3000 ft. The sea was calm. A small river inlet adjacent to a few holiday houses had several small yachts floating at anchor in the mouth of the inlet. A sports oval was also adjacent to the holiday homes. The student had about three hours flying experience. The aerodrome we departed from was about three miles away.

We were maintaining about 60 knots while gliding and around 1500 ft I had the strong impression the propeller was slowing down more than expected for closed throttle glide and carb heat control in hot position.

As I scratched my head over that one, I told the student to apply full throttle and climb away. He pushed open to full throttle while simultaneously raising the nose to the climbing attitude for 60 knot climb. The prop slowed and stopped and at that point we were around 1000 ft above the water.

I took control and turned towards the river inlet planning to ditch near the yachts. While the local aero club had a VHF set in the club house there was no guarantee anyone was there. I switched to the main ATC radar frequency and at the same time dialled 7700 into the C152 transponder that covered a nearby international airport and got a quick Mayday out saying I was ditching at the mouth of the XXX River. This was quickly acknowledged.

Thought about trying for the sports oval which was near the shore at the mouth of the river but it was obvious it would be safer to ditch rather than be tempted to stretch the glide. I told the student (who had no idea of the seriousness of the situation of course) to check his harness secure and to crack open his door. I also told him to lean back in his seat so that I could lean over to his side and operate the primer pump.

The primer pump on that particular Cessna 152 had a history of seizing making it hard to pull it out and push it in. No one had ever bothered to write it up before. Typical GA operation. Fortunately I had written up the primer defect a few weeks earlier and the maintenance people lubricated the shaft and fixed it.

We were down to 400 feet by the time I was able to unscrew the handle of the primer and give it one full burst of prime. Then I turned the starter key and the engine started immediately and I was able to get full power straight away. I got the climb going at 300 ft and saw the look on the crew of one yacht looking up at me as we passed over where we would have ditched at the mouth of the inlet.

We cancelled the Mayday and after landing safely at our aerodrome, I wrote up the defect in the maintenance document. A new instructor then admitted he had had the same trouble a few days earlier when the prop stopped in that aircraft when he was doing stalling practice at 3000 ft in the training area. He did not attempt to re-start it by using the starter motor but instead dived the aircraft to get the prop to revolve which it did.

He failed to write up the defect because he said this was his first instructor job and didn't want to make waves with the aircraft owner or the CFI. I pointed out to him that because of his failure to write up the defect we very nearly were forced to make a bloody big wave if we had been forced to ditch...

[dobbin1]

The nearest I have come to a PFL turning into a real forced landing was in a Piper Cub. My student turned the fuel to off instead of changing tanks during the re-start drill. I had no inkling until we opened the throttle to go around, at which point the engine stopped. An awkward situation, because I could not see or reach the fuel cock from the back seat. Fortunately the student was a good one and we managed to get the problem diagnosed, the fuel back on and the engine started with about 100 ft to go.

Had the engine not started we would have made the target field, but I suspect we would have ended up in the far hedge.

I learned a big lesson from that one - touch drills only during ex 16.

[IdiotPilot]

Most simply important - always FLY the aircraft first. Worry about communications and systems next.

The first thing I would do is establish best glide and look for a spot to land, and I like to advocate circling the landing area instead of flying out and around to make a "pattern" (too risky, you want to land -here- so why the heck would you fly way over -there-)

Of course in some instances it is okay to stretch a tiny bit if you're wicked high/fast, but I wouldn't really teach that right off the bat, it is easier to add flaps, and or slip, then to stretch a glide.

A lot of students and even seasoned pilots have a habit of looking in front of them to pick a landing zone, while forgetting that some of the best zones may be behind you! Look everywhere. Not just at the pretty green field that's about the size of a baseball field.

Upon the forced landing, I stress that no matter what the circumstance, the surface is the height of the rough stuff (i.e. trees, crops, really high snaggy grass, etc). There's a good chance you're not landing on airstrip quality turf.

But once again, the most important thing you can do is relax (as best as you can) and FLY the aircraft.

[Mach Jump]

...I taught ; set up glide, trim, turn into wind (this gave them a better idea of the landing direction)...

Although I can understand the thinking here, it reminded me of a Candidate on a PPL GFT(as we called them back then) who, immediately upon experiencing a simulated engine failure, adopted the glide, and then made a 180 degree turn to head downwind, losing 500' in the process. This, he explained later, was the procedure his instructor had taught him, on the basis that he would cover more ground and be more likely to pass a good field in which to land.

So, ...........as we headed out to sea, .......................................


MJ

[Pull what]

...I taught ; set up glide, trim, turn into wind (this gave them a better idea of the landing direction)...

If you cannot visualise the fields you could use with their alignment into wind this can help-as some pilots just cannot get this but this procedure can waste vaulable height so should be taught as a last resort unless you have plenty of height to waste.

Aviate- Navigate- Communicate isnt correct in this procedure, Early communication is essential including 7700 on the transponder.