CRI at night
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CRI at night
Dear all,
As a CRI could I do say a night checkout/night recency for a PPL holder who already holds a night rating? I'm looking at 1178 and there is nothing that specifically precludes it however the FI is the only certificate the specifically includes the privilege to instruct at night.
As a CRI could I do say a night checkout/night recency for a PPL holder who already holds a night rating? I'm looking at 1178 and there is nothing that specifically precludes it however the FI is the only certificate the specifically includes the privilege to instruct at night.
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FI only required for intial training for rating.
If your legal to fly at night your good to go.
And unless its changed with EASA the 90 day rule doesn't apply to you as your boh counted as crew.
If your legal to fly at night your good to go.
And unless its changed with EASA the 90 day rule doesn't apply to you as your boh counted as crew.
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As a CRI you are unable to do this. The CRI instructional privileges do not include night and you would therefore be a passenger. Unless the person you are flying with is current at night the flight would not be legal.
I agree with Oxflyer. Unless you (or an FI for that matter) have completed the training to remove the No Night Instruction Restriction (which I don't think you can anyway as a CRI) the flight would be illegal. Perversely even an instructor correctly carrying out such a flight could not have any passengers in the back.....
FCL.905.CRI CRI — Privileges and conditions
(a) The privileges of a CRI are to instruct for:
(1) the issue, revalidation or renewal of a class or type rating for non-complex non-high performance single-pilot aeroplanes, when the privileges sought by the applicant are to fly in single-pilot operations;
(2) a towing or aerobatic rating for the aeroplane category, provided the CRI holds the relevant rating and has demonstrated the ability to instruct for that rating to an FI qualified in accordance with FCL.905.FI(i).
(a) The privileges of a CRI are to instruct for:
(1) the issue, revalidation or renewal of a class or type rating for non-complex non-high performance single-pilot aeroplanes, when the privileges sought by the applicant are to fly in single-pilot operations;
(2) a towing or aerobatic rating for the aeroplane category, provided the CRI holds the relevant rating and has demonstrated the ability to instruct for that rating to an FI qualified in accordance with FCL.905.FI(i).
To teach for the issue of a Night Rating is not within the above privileges.
No Night Instruction Restriction (which I don't think you can anyway as a CRI) the flight would be illegal. Perversely even an instructor correctly carrying out such a flight could not have any passengers in the back.....
Provided the instructor is night current, and is of course PIC, then a passenger may be carried regardless of who is doing the landing.
I stand corrected (as usual) on the CRI night bit but surely:
GM1 FCL.060(b)(1) Recent experience AEROPLANES, HELICOPTERS, POWERED-LIFT, AIRSHIPS AND SAILPLANES If a pilot or a PIC is operating under the supervision of an instructor to comply with therequired three take-offs, approaches and landings, no passengers may be onboard.
still prevents passengers on the one of three at night?
GM1 FCL.060(b)(1) Recent experience AEROPLANES, HELICOPTERS, POWERED-LIFT, AIRSHIPS AND SAILPLANES If a pilot or a PIC is operating under the supervision of an instructor to comply with therequired three take-offs, approaches and landings, no passengers may be onboard.
still prevents passengers on the one of three at night?
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I suppose that for a club checkout, confidence or night currency as the student is rated at night then you are not providing instruction for a night rating.
Any more opinions?
Any more opinions?
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AMC1 FCL.060(b)(1) Recent experience
When a pilot needs to carry out one or more flights with an instructor or an
examiner to comply with the requirement of FCL.060(b)(1) before the pilot
can carry passengers, the instructor or examiner on board those flights will not
be considered as a passenger.
GM1 FCL.060(b)(1) Recent experience
AEROPLANES, HELICOPTERS, POWERED-LIFT, AIRSHIPS AND SAILPLANES If a pilot
or a PIC is operating under the supervision of an instructor to comply with the required
three take-offs, approaches and landings, no passengers may be on board.
When a pilot needs to carry out one or more flights with an instructor or an
examiner to comply with the requirement of FCL.060(b)(1) before the pilot
can carry passengers, the instructor or examiner on board those flights will not
be considered as a passenger.
GM1 FCL.060(b)(1) Recent experience
AEROPLANES, HELICOPTERS, POWERED-LIFT, AIRSHIPS AND SAILPLANES If a pilot
or a PIC is operating under the supervision of an instructor to comply with the required
three take-offs, approaches and landings, no passengers may be on board.
that it seems to allow a choice between "Checkee PUT & Instructor PIC"
or "Checkee PIC & Instructor as Safety Pilot (nothing loggable)"
And unless its changed with EASA the 90 day rule doesn't apply to you as your boh
counted as crew
counted as crew
FCL 905 (Instructor Privileges)
e) the night rating, provided that the FI:
(3) complies with the night experience requirement of FCL.060(b)(2);
e) the night rating, provided that the FI:
(3) complies with the night experience requirement of FCL.060(b)(2);
see my points below.
The No night Restriction no longer exists under EASA
to instruct for the Night Rating and to do this they will have to pass
a "test" FCL 905: "has demonstrated the ability to instruct at night to an
FI qualified in accordance with (i) below"
Under EASA anyone can give any instruction they like to anybody.they
want to. PROVIDED it is not for License/Rating issue, renewal or revalidation - in this case there
would only be one pilot (the PIC) on board, everyone else being a passenger. Also I cannot
think of a scenario where any payment could legally be made.
EASA specifies what a pilot can do (not what they cannot).
Therefore an Instructor can only act as such if within the privileges of their Rating (irrespective of
whether "the lesson" is actually for License/Rating action or not)
If outside their privileges then they are not an Instructor and can only be
either PIC or Pax
None of the privileges of a CRI require flight at night and as instructing for the
Night Rating is not listed I would suggest no instruction at night is allowed.
Therefore no, a CRI may not be on board whilst someone regains their night currency
for carrying passengers.
Last edited by Level Attitude; 31st Jul 2013 at 23:26.
None of the privileges of a CRI require flight at night and as instructing for the
Night Rating is not listed I would suggest no instruction at night is allowed.
Night Rating is not listed I would suggest no instruction at night is allowed.
My understanding is the same as yours, Level Attitude.
CRI privileges do not include night instruction. Hence if a CRI gives Class Rating instruction at night, both pilots must hold valid Night Ratings, including night landing recency.
CRI privileges do not include night instruction. Hence if a CRI gives Class Rating instruction at night, both pilots must hold valid Night Ratings, including night landing recency.
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My understanding is the same as yours, Level Attitude
The CAA have always been clear that for a flight to be an "Instructional Flight"
(ie One person logging PIC and teaching a second person who logs PUT) then
the Instructor must have instructional privileges for all aspects of the flight.
Hence their IN several years ago reminding FIs that they were not permitted
to "demonstrate" any aerobatic manoevre during a lesson/trial lesson unless
they also held aerobatic instructional privileges.
CRIs cannot exercise their privileges at night as they will not have
"demonstrated the ability to instruct at night to an FI qualified in accordance
with (i) below"
and EASA have not put in place a process whereby they can.
Instructing at night will not have been taught to a CRI and their competence
to so do never tested.
So why does anyone believe they have this privilege?
The CAA have always been clear that for a flight to be an "Instructional Flight"
(ie One person logging PIC and teaching a second person who logs PUT) then
the Instructor must have instructional privileges for all aspects of the flight.
(ie One person logging PIC and teaching a second person who logs PUT) then
the Instructor must have instructional privileges for all aspects of the flight.
I don't think there is any debate regarding a CRI not being able to train for a Night Rating however; there is nothing to prohibit Class rating training including refresher training being conducted at any time of the day so long as both pilots are appropriately rated e.g night rating at Night. If you go back to the old UK LPC/LST forms it actually included a column for night circuits (if required).
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Calling BEagle
Whopity we are going to disagree:
FCL.900 (a) General (1) (ii) "An instructor must hold a certificate
appropriate to the instruction being given"
I do not believe a CRI is an "appropriate certificate" to carry out (any)
instruction at night, whereas you, obviously, do.
Unless, and until, the wording of FCL.905.CRI CRI — Privileges and conditions
is ammended to specifically include/exclude night instruction, or there is
a court case to decide the issue, then it is the CAA, as the UK
Competent Authority, who would decide whether an EASA CRI is an
"appropriate certificate" to instruct at night.
BEagle,
Perhaps you could ask them?
It's down to what is written in Part FCL
appropriate to the instruction being given"
I do not believe a CRI is an "appropriate certificate" to carry out (any)
instruction at night, whereas you, obviously, do.
its no longer the CAA's call
is ammended to specifically include/exclude night instruction, or there is
a court case to decide the issue, then it is the CAA, as the UK
Competent Authority, who would decide whether an EASA CRI is an
"appropriate certificate" to instruct at night.
BEagle,
Perhaps you could ask them?
Last edited by Level Attitude; 1st Aug 2013 at 19:24.
FCL.900 (a) General (1) (ii) "An instructor must hold a certificate
appropriate to the instruction being given"
appropriate to the instruction being given"
The CAA can not be any more stringent than the basic regulation. If the conditions are not specified it is not up to to the CAA to make them up.
I consider that Class Rating training may be conducted at any time of day or night, just as instrument flying training may be conducted at any time of day or night.
However, instruction for the Night Rating, including dual instruction for the purpose of regaining night recency, may only be conducted by an instructor who has demonstrated the ability to instruct at night.
FCL.905.FI(e) concerns instructional requirements for the Night Rating; similar privileges do not apply to a CRI.
Of course there is no requirement for a pilot to take any night refresher training if his/her licence and ratings are valid - surviving one solo take-off and landing technically suffices....
However, instruction for the Night Rating, including dual instruction for the purpose of regaining night recency, may only be conducted by an instructor who has demonstrated the ability to instruct at night.
FCL.905.FI(e) concerns instructional requirements for the Night Rating; similar privileges do not apply to a CRI.
Of course there is no requirement for a pilot to take any night refresher training if his/her licence and ratings are valid - surviving one solo take-off and landing technically suffices....
Beagle,
Whilst I agree with your sentiment, a CRI may train a qualified pilot, no ab-initio. The night rating is ab-initio training but, refresher training is conducted with a qualified pilot, so there is nothing in Law to prohibit a CRI conducting that training. Whether it is desirable or not is another matter. Perhaps someone would like to ask Mathias Borgmeier at EASA for his view.
Whilst I agree with your sentiment, a CRI may train a qualified pilot, no ab-initio. The night rating is ab-initio training but, refresher training is conducted with a qualified pilot, so there is nothing in Law to prohibit a CRI conducting that training. Whether it is desirable or not is another matter. Perhaps someone would like to ask Mathias Borgmeier at EASA for his view.