What do they teach flying instructors these days?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

How do you know you have an excellent track record--

By examining my past flying record.

and as for a flawless safety record, what difference does that make?

Let me turn the question around and ask you one.

The next time you get in an airplane to fly somewhere as a passenger will it make any difference to you if the pilot flying you has over half a century of safe flying without wrecking anything, or a pilot who has a long history of accidents?

DFC-have to say you are the only person who seems like an instructor on here!

Fortunately there are others who are flight instructors on this forum flythisway, in fact I received my first instructors rating in 1958.

You must bear in mind that different instructors present information in different manners......I tend not to be an acronym slave and prefer to use logic and observation as a means of ensuring I am making the correct decisions and carrying out the correct actions at a given time.

Note:

I am not saying that following proper check lists is not necessary, what I am saying is check lists should reflect the aircraft POH / AFM and not be cluttered up with unnecessary actions such as checking the gear is down on a fixed gear aircraft......that to my way of thinking is poor airmanship.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I must confess I have never heard of these two acronyms.

FREDAI

PLANTT

Had someone put them in front of me I would not have had a clue what they stood for.

[Say again s l o w l y]

You're not missing much Chuck, that I can assure you.

Are you suggesting that people should read and understand the Flight Manual before they fly Chuck? Coo, there are some people (who are dearly in need of a kick in the pods obviously) who would suggest that as heresy.
Well, given the nonsense I see promulgated as fact by some FI's that's the only conclusion I can come to.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Have to say I'm totally with Chuck on this. Having flown a few different types, including amphibs, I'd simply say "fly the aircraft you're flying".

http://www.pprune.org/5354842-post12.html

just to show I'm not agreeing for convenience

C'mon folks we all do OK for ourselves,..No?

[DFC]

I tend not to be an acronym slave and prefer to use logic and observation as a means of ensuring I am making the correct decisions and carrying out the correct actions at a given time.

I have said this to you before Chuck, it is not about you. It is about the student. What you (or I) do when flying is a totally different situation from what the student learning a new skill in a new environment will do.

You seems to be ignoring the fact that we are not talking about checklists.

Let mje try for the last time to explain it to you.

FREDA and similar acronyms are not checks. They are procedures / flows.

At many levels it makes sense where possible to have common procedures that are easily remembered, well understood and in common use.

Lets look at a very typical example of not slavishly following the idea of ""fly the aircraft you're flying".

Big Airline operates B737, A320 and several other types. They have a company wide Noise Abatement Procedure - Maximum Thrust and TO Flap to 1500ft AAL, Maximum Continuous Thrust and TO Flap to 3000ft AAL then accelerate and clean-up.

Not all airports will have a noise abatement restriction. However, in the interest of standardisation and safety, the company insists that the Noise abatement departure is flown in all cases unless safety gives the pilot a reason not to.

If the first level-off is 2500ft do they accelerate and retract the flap. No. Putting a random element into the scenario is opening up the posibility of a distraction and the flap limit speed being exceeded.

Of course that would never happen to you. But it happens to plenty of operators who don't have a cast iron system in place to prevent flap overspeeds during departure.

Getting back to checks. If one is flying a C150 in a club environment there will hopefully be a reasonably standard procedure to configure the aircraft for landing. But what should the checklist be? I can only think of 2 items - Mixture and Security - but that is the checklist and not the procedure.

I have provided training for many people who learned to fly on and and lots of experience on C152 and C172 aircraft (they always checked the gear) and then were moving onto a type such as the PA-28-R (Arrow).

Guess what - they never forgot the Gear. They did frequently however forget the Fuel Pump. They forget to turn it off after departure and they forget to turn it on before landing. Yes the pre-landing checklist caught it but the point is that they have been doing it one way for 150 hours and we don't have another 150 hours practice for them to get it right.

So please don't base the training of a student on what you (with your experience) do but rather develop a system that will ensure that the student can cope and can safely progress with the minimum fuss............unless of course you insist that every student reaches your level of experience and ability in 45 hours or less.

[Dave Unwin]

Using your argument about checking the C150s undercarriage (even though its fixed) why don't you also train them to turn the C150s fuel pump on/off - even though it doesn't have one.
As for your airline analogy - I hardly know where to begin.
Fly the thing you're flying! If its got a retract U/C, fuel pump, cowl flaps etc etc use them as required. If it doesn't - well, it doesn't.

[DFC]

Using your argument about checking the C150s undercarriage

I have never argued that the Checklist should include a check of the undercarriage on fixed gear aircraft.

What I have argued is that where an individual or club operates a mixture of types it makes sense in safety terms to have reasonably standard actions during various stages of flight.

Ultimately, the landing checklist for the C150 could have no items. After all, what is there to check for the competent pilot?

But,

I think that even if you decided that the Pre-Landing Checklist was "Nil" you would still expect several things to be done before landing eg Check Carb Heat / Clear any Ice etc etc etc

Let me Quote Mr Cessna;

" Section I lists in Pilot's Check List form, the steps necessary to operate your airplane efficiently and safely. It is not a check list in its true form as it is considerably longer, but it does cover briefly all of the points that you should know for a typical flight."

So even Mr Cessna is hoping that the pilot will not simply rely on the laminated checklist (which should be very brief) but will also cover all the points that you should know for a typical flight.

You will notice that I previously used FREADI as an example.

Note that I did not expand on each item. I did not because each item is something to be considered rather than a required action.

For example F - Fuel : Contents, Tank Selection, Pump (if you have one) On or Off, Fuel Pressure, Mixture, Expected amount remaining at Destination....are all things that come under that simple heading. Some may not be applicable today (or this hour) but they may be tomorrow or during the next hour in a different aircraft.

There is nothing wrong with something being considered during flight and it being determined to be "not applicable".

What is wrong (and potentialy dangerous) is to open up the posibility that an important item could be overlooked / forgotten.

Considering something, actioning something and checking something are all things that can be done without a checklist. the checklist is simply a final catcher after you think everything is done.

So again I say. I am not in favour or a checklist having non-applicable or unnecessary items eg Gear on a fixed aircraft but when talking about GA light aircraft I am infavour of keeping things simple and where possible having simple basic actions / considerations for each phase of flight which don't change from aircraft to aircraft.

Many commercial operators limit the number of types that a pilot can fly (EU-Ops has a requirement). We can't do the same with GA PPL / recreational fliers.

Still waiting for someone to come up with a simpler option.

[Dave Unwin]

Pure semantics. You have consistently proposed - have you not - that a pilot should confirm the position of the U/C, even if it is fixed. Surely (applying your own logic) the same pilot should also consider the props, fuel pumps, cowl flaps, oil cooler doors, leading edge slats, airbrakes, spoilers, drag chute, water rudder, yaw damper, autopilot, water injection, supercharger, afterburner, etc etc. After all, the next aircraft that pilot flies may well have fuel pumps, cowl flaps, oil cooler doors, leading edge slats, airbrakes, spoilers, drag chute, water rudder, water injection, supercharger or even an afterburner. Or, it might not.

[Dave Unwin]

Oooops. Sorry everyone - I forgot to mention the thrust reversers, Master Armament Switch, JATO selector and bomb bay doors. Which was a mistake, as I flew an aircraft in January which did indeed include 'Close Bomb Bay Doors' as part of the after-start checklist! Honestly, what am I like?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Word salading is not really one of my passions DFC, especially with an unknown entity on the internet.

I appreciate the time you take to try and enlighten me in the finer points of how to teach people how to think about a flight they are about to set out on.

However I am afraid you are truly wasting your time if you are expecting me to change my ways and adopt your view of how to teach flying.

I have not taught ab-initio flying since 1964 and I will admit time can dim ones memory but the basics have remained with me as I went on from teaching at the PPL level to teaching agricultural flying and from there to company training pilot on heavy water bombers for twelve years. Later in my career I started a business offering advanced flight training and as part of the business I went back to light aircraft again therefore I hope I understand the issues involved in how to teach people to fly.

I am quite sure you and I will remain at odds on this subject regardless of how much bandwith we waste here playing one upmanship, so lets just end our discussion at this point as there is really nothing much more to say.

[Pugilistic Animus]

READ AND USE THE



---------------------POH/AFM!!!------------------




OR RELEVANT SUPPLEMENTS

[mad_jock]

One from the S turns thread.

Apparently some consider sideslip as highly dangerous and bad practise

[Pugilistic Animus]

Sides slips are stressful, literally and,...for croswind initial approach it looks cheap and it is not natural but artificial,...good for getting into tight spaces with engine failure,..and keeping away the flames during an emergency descent

[Say again s l o w l y]

Oh God, the sideslip argument...

Numpty: "You can't do sideslip, you'll spin and die"

Me: "Start running, you've got 10 seconds until I release the hounds. They are particularly fond of stupid people, so you'd better be quick."

[Bob Stinger]

Sideslips are not generally taught in the PPL syllabus nowadays so this in my opinion leads the younger FI unsure of how to teach them resulting in the "we cant do them because there dangerous/scary etc argument", as a new FI I made sure on my FI course that I was taught how to teach them.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Generally not taught on the PPL? Please tell me you are joking or misinformed.

Why do you need to be taught how to teach a sideslip? It's not as if it's a complex aerobatic routine. It's a very simple and basic manouever, that anyone should be able to do.

No teaching of sideslip...I truly am speechless.

[Piper.Classique]

Generally not taught on the PPL? Please tell me you are joking or misinformed.

I wish he were. I have encountered many pilots unable or unwilling to use a sideslip, including instructors. May be different in the UK, and I hope it is, but here in France one of our club aeroplane instructors will reluctantly admit that I can sideslip if I want to, but not if he is on board. The other doesn't mind, but doesn't teach it to his students. I instruct on three axis microlights, and my students learn sideslips, straight and in a turn. Oh, and s turns, and anything else likely to help in the event of an engine failure or a Bu**ered approach where no go-round is possible. Quite a lot of hill sites for example.

[Centaurus]

Lets look at something a bit less contentious - the well known FREDAI;

Well known? I checked the ICAO glossary - strange...nothing there. Checked all the various Flight manuals, Flight crew Training Manuals - strange...nothing there, either.

I once saw a checklist mnemonic but I forget for what aeroplane. It was called My Friend Fred Had Hairy Balls or MFFHHB but was never quite sure what each letter stood for. Let's see now:

M for Mixture (or maybe even Magnetos or maybe Master Switch?)
F for Fuel (or maybe Flaps or maybe even check for FIRE).
F for (see above)
H for Hatches (or maybe Hydraulics or even Harness)
H for (see above)
B for Brakes?

Nmemonics only make sense to the person that invented them and should never be foisted upon other unsuspecting hapless individuals. Stick to the manufacturer's manual for the drills required of their aircraft only.

Of course mnemonics are good fun to invent but seriously, they are a bit, like, amateur, don't you agree?

[BillieBob]

Sometimes Fred, sometimes Flicka after the horse in the 1950s TV show, and applied to the Chipmunk: Mixture, Fuel, Flaps, Hood, Harness, Brakes.

Oh, and I recall an FE's conference some years ago where sideslipping on finals was described by a CAA staff FE as "The last resort of a scoundrel". Where do they find these people?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Oh, and I recall an FE's conference some years ago where sideslipping on finals was described by a CAA staff FE as "The last resort of a scoundrel". Where do they find these people?

Is the above even possible?, I know there are neuron deficient people in positions of power but how is it possible that one with no neurons slipped in?

Lets look at something a bit less contentious - the well known FREDAI;

I'm relieved to see I am not the only one who has never heard of that well known acronym....like I said above where do these things come from???