How do you teach the use of checklist?

[DFC]

So before landing prepare the a/c and then run the approach checklist

Exactly.

Far too often students are taught that the before landing actions and the before landing checklist are the same thing. They are not.

Typical Example -

Jonny is taught the typical memory actions - Brakes, off - Undercarriage, Down - Mixture, Rich -etc etc etc

Every time they fly, they carry out the actions but never run a checklist of any sort to check that the actions have indeed been done. When Jonny progresses to something with retracting undercarriage, they arrive downwind and start....Brakes, Off - Undercariage, Down (Moves lever) - Mixture, Rich..........and fail to note that they only have 2 greens. Far better to carry out the actions / flow from memory and then run a short checklist to check that the requires items have indeed been done correctly.

I would not get into much of an issue with regard to Challenge and Respond Checklists being for multi crew only. They are perfect for single crew also.

For those who have never flown multi crew, in an abnormal situation where a checklist must be run, it is normal for 1 pilot to fly the aircraft and look after the radio while the other pilot actions the checklist. The pilot actioning the checklist is doing just what a single pilot would do with a challenge and respond checklist -

Call out the item, Call out the Required Response, Check the indication / switch position etc and then Call out the Observed position

eg -
"Oxygen - Override"...(moves switch to override).....Override"
"No Smoking Signs - On".....(Checks switch position)....."On"
"Fasten Seatbelts - On".....(Turns on fasten seatbelts)...."On"

Note that in the above, the pilot tells themselves what the indication / switch position should be, they then compare the actual situation with the required situation and adjust as necessary and then when correct, announce the correct situation.

What they are doing is a "read and do" checklist. However, they are doing it correctly. They are reading the checklist, carrying out the action and then checking that the action has been completed.

1) The challenge and response methodology obviously does not literally apply with only one pilot so alternative approaches are necessary.

I don't necessarly agree 100%;

YouTube - Airbus A320 Video Training 2 of 32

Have a look at the above video of a simulator exercise. The part relevant to what I am saying here starts at about 3:10 when the non-flying pilot starts using a paper checklist in the read and do mode. Note how the checklist is actioned as a read and do checklist.

Compare that to what is done at about 5:25 when the after-take-off checklist is read. That checklist is backing up a flow / SOP and is being used simply as a check that things previously done have indeed been done i.e. no actions should be involved if everything is correct. I hope that you can see the big difference in how this checklist is read and how the read and do one is done.

As an aside, note where the hand remains while the flaps are moving i.e. note the LOI being used for flap retraction - "Speed checked, flap xxx selected, flap xxx indicated" and hand remains on the level until required indication is received.

Perhaps the one big thing that students and PPLs (and CPLs) can learn is that doing 50 checks in 10 seconds from memory is not cool / good.

These should IMO include carefully thought out flows so that the flow backs up the checks, and

2) I also believe that except for certain special circumstances the aircraft, should not be moving when carrying out any checks including flows, especially for ab intio training.

Checklists should back-up flows not the other way round.

Item 2 is 100% correct except that certain actions (flows) require the aircraft to be moving eg checking brakes, rudder and instriuments during taxi. Having said that. the taxi-checklist should only be actioned when the aircraft is stopped.

[Big Pistons Forever]

DFC

I do not aggree with you with respect to challenge and response checklists. You need two people to do achieve the full measure of extra rigour that this method gives. A good example of this is pulling the fire handle. The challenge and response requires one pilot to "challenge" the other pilot to "respond" with a confirmation that the correct handle is being pulled before the action is actually taken. Your discription is simply a single pilot properly performing a "do list". The video shows proper use of a flow which then is backed up by "checking" the checklist, which is I think what everyone has been advocating.

By saying flows should back up checklist my intent was to articulate that the flow and the checklist compliment each other. That is the order of the flow should be consistant from for each section of the checklist and should be in the same order as do and checklists. This concept is unfortuantely seldom followed in the checklists I have seen at flight schools.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Amazing that this conversation has taken on a life of its own.

I am in a generous mood this morning so I am going to share some simple truths with all of you out there across the globe.

Check lists are nothing more or less than a method of assuring that certain actions have been performed that if not performed correctly could or will result in an accident.

So the first step in assuring safety is " Never do something stupid fast. " in other words take enough time to think about the action you are about to start.

That is lesson one for today.

I did something stupid yesterday, I burnt my hand because I was reaming out the hole in my tail wheel front spring attachment point without leather gloves on....amazing how hot those little pieces of steel can be isn't it?

[DFC]

A good example of this is pulling the fire handle. The challenge and response requires one pilot to "challenge" the other pilot to "respond" with a confirmation that the correct handle is being pulled before the action is actually taken.

I think that you are confusing an SOP that requires both pilots to confirm any action involving engine controls, fire handles etc with a totally separate issue of a challenge and respond checklist. If you look at the video again it is only the engine critical actions - throttle and fuel cut-of movements that are crosschecked. For many other actions, the non-flying pilot is completeing a read and do checklist in a challenge and respond manner just like a single pilot would.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Don't play Mr/Mrs. octopus in a plane no matter which camp you subscribe to

keep a fast mind and slow hands...don't rush either! keep your mind on the present while thinking five minutes ahead...and all the while it may be good to have one eye continually upon the traffic and another continually upon heaven

sounds a bit tough -no?

PA

[DFC]

There is plenty of time to view checklists when you fly multi-crew, for single pilot operation you need to fly the aeroplane first.

I am trying to think of situations where the pilot can not make suficient time to carefully and correctly run a well designed checklist.

Engine Failure at low level on a single or light twin
Fire
Running out of fuel

That is probably the only 3 occasions where there will not be time to execute the required actions and then run the checklist. Even the second two may give enough time.

I fear that your need to use memory rather than the written checklist stems from the problem that that chacklist contains far too many items.

I teach my students to only view the checklist when they're on the ground and parked. Ultimately you can't control an aeroplane safely if you have your head buried in paperwork!

Perhaps you might considder getting your student to learn the SOPs and the procedures / flows for each phase of flight and then have them complete a very short checklist at the appropriate moment.

After all, how many schools call BUMCPFHH (or similar) the pre-landing checks when in fact that are the pre-landing flow. The pre-landing checklist can simply be Mixtures Rich, Props Fine, Gear Down. Tell me that there is no time to read that and you have to be rushing unnecessarily.

Schools in general put very little thought into their SOPS, flows and checklists. They prefer to use a generic "checklist" which they sell to the students. The teaching of checklist use is practically non-existant. Exercise 1 and 2 is all but ignored.

Ultimately you can't control an aeroplane safely if you have your head buried in paperwork!

Makes me wonder how they read the map, record the progress on the OFP and brief the arrival procedure etc?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

DFC why would you put your props fine during the landing approach?

[DFC]

DFC why would you put your props fine during the landing approach?

The simple answer is that the POH / Flight Manual says that is to be done.

The better answer would probably so say that the fine pitch setting is the one for climbing at full power - like what one might want to do in the event of a missed approach / balked landing.

One could perhaps also say that the (slight) extra drag reduces the landing distance!

You could have also pointed out that putting he mixture to full rich for landing at an elevation of 9000ft is not a good idea.

-----------

What's so difficult about remembering BUM FELCH for your landing checks? If you use your initiative you can create an acronym for any checks you want.

The problem is not remembering "BUM FELCH". That is a good flow that gets things done. The problem is that if you miss something important out there is no check to catch the error.

I am looking at a checklist for a light aircraft. It has 9 Before Start checks, 18 Start Checks, 4 Taxi checks and 24 before take-off checks. Now it is mostly true that 55 things need to be done before take-off but there are not anywhere near 55 things that need to be "checked".

Just like "BUM FELCH", 8 items, not all of which have to be actioned / checked to land safely every time and some things that are checked regularly during the normal flying anyway.

That is why we need to teach the difference between a procedure / flow and the checks that are completed after to catch the posibility that something was missed.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Lets dig a little deeper into this putting the props full fine during the approach DFC.

First off if the POH / flight manual calls for this to be done can you give me a link to a POH that requires this to be done so I can see where exactly on the approach you must do it?

I have found that leaving the props in cruise setting on piston engine airplanes during the approach works just fine, I select full fine when I close the throttle / s for the landing for two reasons....

(1) If for some strange reason I need to reject the landing I will be able to apply take off power and the prop / s will be selected full fine.

(2) They will be in the correct position for take off on the next flight.

If for what ever reason I might need to reject the approach and go around it is easy to increase RPM to climb RPM and then apply climb power.

Why would you need to add take off power to do a missed approach?

Have I been doing it wrong?

[1049]

Folks, Its clear that there are many ways to interperet the use of checklists. However, when it comes to the training and establishing of time proven aviation habits I believe that the student should be taught to do the checklist verbatim not just pay lip service to it.
The habits and respect for checklists you develop aquiring a PPL will serve you well in the future in whatever aircraft you fly. You will not last long at an airline if you neglect proper checklist procedures - end of story.

[Pugilistic Animus]

1049 excellent post,...I have a few more things to add to the discussion unfortunately I don't have time to properly construct my rants now as may have been noted by others.... I suck at fast typing and my thoughts out run my hands


...lively little thread

PA

[Dudley Henriques]

Lets dig a little deeper into this putting the props full fine during the approach DFC.

First off if the POH / flight manual calls for this to be done can you give me a link to a POH that requires this to be done so I can see where exactly on the approach you must do it?

I have found that leaving the props in cruise setting on piston engine airplanes during the approach works just fine, I select full fine when I close the throttle / s for the landing for two reasons....

(1) If for some strange reason I need to reject the landing I will be able to apply take off power and the prop / s will be selected full fine.

(2) They will be in the correct position for take off on the next flight.

If for what ever reason I might need to reject the approach and go around it is easy to increase RPM to climb RPM and then apply climb power.

Why would you need to add take off power to do a missed approach?

Have I been doing it wrong?

You're not doing it wrong, but it all fairness, this is a HUGE issue in the United States in the Warbird community anyway where we're running Merlins, Allisons, and round engines all the way to 4360's.
Basically speaking, we're taking a long hard look at prop settings on final due to accidents involving ham handed pilots cramming in high MP with the props in (fine pitch for you Brits:-) . The resulting go around considering an initiation at high angles of attack and low airspeed has killed quite a few operators.
First of all, running up the props to full increase or even METO as is the case in most prop fighters (in my case specifically the Mustang) creates a huge drag on final in many cases causing power to be used that if you get low enough can result in a backside approach which by any definition isn't optimum.
Next, we have the various factors that come into play as something like a P51 is ham handed into a go around in the conditions I have mentioned. Having the prop all the way up allows all the power you can cram in.

Couple this into the addition of an 11 foot 2 inch Hamilton Standard 24D50 prop up front with a nice set of 6547 Paddle blades grabbing a ton of air when you rotate with high alpha/ slow airspeed/ and a prop disk rotating in pitch and you can throw in gyroscopic precession and P Factor to boot, not to mention slipstream effect.
The result here will be a yard of right aileron needed for the torque and two yards of rudder needed for the rest of it.
Operator not ready for this = dead operator.
It has been suggested by one side of the issue that leaving the prop in cruise on final and accepting any ham handed MP over boost during a go around attempt won't hurt the engines and is acceptable and even preferred procedure that will save lives.
The other side of the issue postulates that the airplane should be set up for approach as the dash 1 dictates and that pilots should be trained properly not to cram in go around power.
I've flown these airplanes for years using the dash 1 recommended procedures. I flew my approaches slightly high in the Mustang, and ran up the prop as the dash 1 asks for, at 2700RPM (METO) as I got close in on final.
This is simply my preference. I also agree that leaving the prop in cruise is a viable option. The main thing is that you are flying the aircraft in a manner that YOU can handle if suddenly faced with a go around.
So for me, it's Prop to 2700 close in. I was trained in proper throttle response and I teach proper throttle response so the prop position recommended by North American for the P51 is fine for me.
Different strokes for different folks :-))))))))))))))
Dudley Henriques

[Big Pistons Forever]

Guys I think it is time to go back and re read post No 1. The tread initiator is asking about checklist with respect to PPL training. So frankly I think the correct way to handle large radial engines (of which I have a lot of personal experience, hence my posting handle) is IMO not very germain. The issue of advancing the props for small aircraft with controllable pitch props used in a flight training environment is however an area that is IMO worth some discussion. When I am flying any aircraft with a constant speed prop I leave the prop lever in the cruise RPM position untill very short final and then bring the prop lever up to full forward when the airspeed is reduced to a low enough value that the prop is allready on the fine pitch stops. I used to teach that method from the beginning but found if given an unexpected go around low time pilots were reverting to the Cessna 172 or Piper PA 28 habits and instinctively firewalling the throttle and forgetting to bring the prop up first. So now I get them to set the POH derived minimum RPM setting which will still allow full MAP to be applied (It seems to be 2400 RPM for most 4 and 6 cylinder GA engines) as part of the prelanding checklist items. I then get them to do the full fine on very short final method. As they gain experince and confidence I would see them moving away from the intermediate higher RPM setting and just go from cruise to full fine on short final. However going to a higher setting earlier will have no effect on the working life of any of the common direct drive GA engines although it does increase the noise level a little

[Dudley Henriques]

Guys I think it is time to go back and re read post No 1. The tread initiator is asking about checklist with respect to PPL training. So frankly I think the correct way to handle large radial engines (of which I have a lot of personal experience, hence my posting handle) is IMO not very germain. The issue of advancing the props for small aircraft with controllable pitch props used in a flight training environment is however an area that is IMO worth some discussion. When I am flying any aircraft with a constant speed prop I leave the prop lever in the cruise RPM position untill very short final and then bring the prop lever up to full forward when the airspeed is reduced to a low enough value that the prop is allready on the fine pitch stops. I used to teach that method from the beginning but found if given an unexpected go around low time pilots were reverting to the Cessna 172 or Piper PA 28 habits and instinctively firewalling the throttle and forgetting to bring the prop up first. So now I get them to set the POH derived minimum RPM setting which will still allow full MAP to be applied (It seems to be 2400 RPM for most 4 and 6 cylinder GA engines) as part of the prelanding checklist items. I then get them to do the full fine on very short final method. As they gain experince and confidence I would see them moving away from the intermediate higher RPM setting and just go from cruise to full fine on short final. However going to a higher setting earlier will have no effect on the working life of any of the common direct drive GA engines although it does increase the noise level a little

I think I'm getting out of this thread as it's going around and around in circles.
My last post was in direct response to a post directly related to prop rpm on landings. I posted several times prior addressing the exact reasoning behind the use of checklists in PPL training.
I guess there's a bit too much thread creep here at that, so I'll leave it to you nice folks and go feed the cat.
:-)
Dudley Henriques

[DFC]

I have found that leaving the props in cruise setting on piston engine airplanes during the approach works just fine, I select full fine when I close the throttle / s for the landing for two reasons....

(1) If for some strange reason I need to reject the landing I will be able to apply take off power and the prop / s will be selected full fine.

(2) They will be in the correct position for take off on the next flight.

If for what ever reason I might need to reject the approach and go around it is easy to increase RPM to climb RPM and then apply climb power.

Why would you need to add take off power to do a missed approach?

Have I been doing it wrong?

You have proved my point perfectly - There is a lot of confusion out there about the big difference between a checklist / checks and a procedure / technique.

First, since this is an instructor forum, should it not be more about what the student will do. Quite a lot of "I"'s highlighted in your above statement.

Second. I said;

The pre-landing checklist can simply be Mixtures Rich, Props Fine, Gear Down

I did not say when the actions would be done. All I said is that at a suitable moment, a check would be made that they were indeed done.

Thus my point that many people seem to confuse actions to be done (flows) with checks. Putting the gear down does not also check that it is down. Moving the props to a fine setting (as per the POH) is not a check that the props are in the required position. If you put the props to fine as you cross the hedge then I doubt that there is a further deliberate check (memory or otherwise) that you have indeed carried out the action i.e. you either did it or you did not.

Someone said that they use a GUMPS check on final to set the props. So we have "BUM FELCH " or similar downwind and then GUMPS on final approach- both flows / actions. Hopefully getting distracted on downwind and leaving out the G will get caught on final but in effect the aircraft is alnding without having completed any check that the required actions have indeed been done other than having the required actions repeated several times rather than done and checked.

As other have said this is about teaching PPLs who on average will need to start with the basics and work up to your level of proficiency after how many thousands of hours on a particular type (something that most PPLs never reach).

In simple terms Chuck, this is not about "you" being able to advance props and throttles together it is about the student / average PPL.

Me? in most cases, I set the props after the MP has been reduced slowing for gear and flap extension. However where the fine setting described is specific eg 2500 or 2600RPM then it is impossible to set this RPM when the prop is out of the governed range. That is an SOP / Procedure and not a check since the check - Props..... will be separately checked in all cases.

The checklist (very short and written on the pannel) is then run to check the actions have been done and hey presto, you are at the start of a stable approach. Now don't go off jumping to conclusions that I set landing flap 4 miles out in a C182 because I have not said any such thing!!

[flythisway]

Landing gear in correct position for take off and landing. ( Improper gear position can kill you in a heart beat. )

But didnt you say you dont check Undercarriage in an aircraft not fitted with retractable gear?

[belowradar]

As a flying instructor and Examiner I enjoy taking the "war and peace" encyclopedia (checklist) from the pilot (qualified ppl normally) and throwing into the back seat, I then sit and watch as the pilot goes into a state of confusion and utter disbelief (what you can't be serious ? Oh yes I am !) Great fun and thoroughly enlightening for me and them.

So for what it is worth my method for checklists on pre departure

1 - Nothing is that critical on the ground.....I will say that again NOTHING IS THAT CRITICAL ON THE GROUND ! (Yeah I know that turbines can punish you if sequence of start is incorrect but you get my point for average PA28 / Cessna 172.

2- Get the thing started and forget about everything else for now

2 - Flow through the panel and check and setup everything that you need for taxi - then get clearance to taxi

3 - Do your taxi checks while you are taxying (I know this will offend many who don't think that checks should be done while moving but remember we are heads up and outside , not reading war and peace. So have a look to see if rudder is moving when pedals depressed, controls free and correct (why do only a few pilots actually look to make sure rigged correctly) set trim, set flaps and anything else that is appropriate.

3 - Stop and complete power checks from memory and final take off checks

Now when you think you are ready whip out the checklist and see if you missed anything (don't do all of the checks again !!!)

This works well after a few tries and has the following benefits

1 - Faster and more efficient
2 - Safer (eyes outside for much longer)
3 - You are forced to think about what you are doing
4 - Makes good use of taxi time (hell why not brief the departure if a long taxi)
5 - You still get to have a look at the checklist just to find out what you missed

[welliewanger]

How do you teach the use of checklist?

With a very big stick!

[CaptainInsaneO]

Flip / Tab type checklists

I'm trying to get a hold of the Flipper board type checklist that you mount on top of the instrument panel...

The type that, when you check things off as you takeoff, leaving all the tabs with an 'up' arrow. And when landing, it leaves all the tabs with a 'down' arrow.

Does anybody know of a supply shop or even a private seller that has these available for purchase?

Thanks in advance.

[Pugilistic Animus]

you will find that most generic GA checklist...are horribly formatted and designed for distraction...generally it's nice to only use those checklist for preflight, startup and run-up and if available use the placards for landing/ approach...and just have flows for emergencies....