How do you teach turning?
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 11
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From: Canada
As for how I was taught to teach it in the air-
Look out, roll aircraft to desired angle of bank, centralize, coordinate, if it will be a climbing/descending turn then establish the climb or descent first then add the turn.
When levelling out- look out, roll wings level, centralize, coordinate.
Seemed to keep the fed happy to flight tested me and had me teach turns.
Look out, roll aircraft to desired angle of bank, centralize, coordinate, if it will be a climbing/descending turn then establish the climb or descent first then add the turn.
When levelling out- look out, roll wings level, centralize, coordinate.
Seemed to keep the fed happy to flight tested me and had me teach turns.
Joined: May 2001
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1. Patter the look out and the roll into the turn and maintenance of turn.
2. Give control to student and get them to maintain.
3. Once they have that sussed tell them to fly S&L.
4. Get the student to initiate turn if they make a real mess of it tell them to fly S&L again and if you think they didn't grasp what they were doing patter it again if they just made a pigs ear of it get them to do it again.
Repeat for opposite direction.
5. Once they can do all 3 bits start getting them to roll out at physical references.
6. When they have that sussed do roll outs on bearings.
Then personally I combine practise with trimming practise putting it out of trim then S&L and pointing somewhere else.
Then depending if they have put the thing into a spiral dive by mistake in which case I would have had a look at it before. If they are not knackard by this point or are nervy I would do spiral dive recovery. If in my opinion they are not up to it I would put it in there student notes and cover it after revision before starting the next airwork lesson. I know most do the lesson in 30-40 mins, I make it last for 1 hour with the additional time used to hammer in the S&L and trimming practise. Pays dividends in the circuit in my opnion.
It might be out of kilter with the official place for spiral dives but it just the place I have found it most useful and the student actually gets the most out of learning Spiral dives recoveries. If you do it to soon they don't grasp whats gone wrong and the whole thing is a fire fighting exercise of actions without knowledge. And I don't like leaving it until steep turns like some do.
2. Give control to student and get them to maintain.
3. Once they have that sussed tell them to fly S&L.
4. Get the student to initiate turn if they make a real mess of it tell them to fly S&L again and if you think they didn't grasp what they were doing patter it again if they just made a pigs ear of it get them to do it again.
Repeat for opposite direction.
5. Once they can do all 3 bits start getting them to roll out at physical references.
6. When they have that sussed do roll outs on bearings.
Then personally I combine practise with trimming practise putting it out of trim then S&L and pointing somewhere else.
Then depending if they have put the thing into a spiral dive by mistake in which case I would have had a look at it before. If they are not knackard by this point or are nervy I would do spiral dive recovery. If in my opinion they are not up to it I would put it in there student notes and cover it after revision before starting the next airwork lesson. I know most do the lesson in 30-40 mins, I make it last for 1 hour with the additional time used to hammer in the S&L and trimming practise. Pays dividends in the circuit in my opnion.
It might be out of kilter with the official place for spiral dives but it just the place I have found it most useful and the student actually gets the most out of learning Spiral dives recoveries. If you do it to soon they don't grasp whats gone wrong and the whole thing is a fire fighting exercise of actions without knowledge. And I don't like leaving it until steep turns like some do.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
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Good for you ed603em and I presume they also told you to apply enough back pressure to maintain the picture to perform the maintenance of the turn. Instructors call it the Patter.
I took this thread to be a question on Instructors stuff. Which is the break down of a manoeuvre into its components and then teaching it in a manner which is both logical to the student and also builds on previous skills which they have been taught.
I took this thread to be a question on Instructors stuff. Which is the break down of a manoeuvre into its components and then teaching it in a manner which is both logical to the student and also builds on previous skills which they have been taught.
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
1. After an 'at the end of the lesson this is what you'll be able to do demo', teach maintenance of the turn first. Concentrating on the L00kout, Attitude, Instruments cycle. Handover to the student and let him/her practise.
2. Then teach the entry.
3. Then let the student practise the entry and maintenance.
4. IHC; WIGYC all I want you to do is to recover to the S&L attitude when I say 'roll out', any questions, YHC. "Roll Out". Shortly after S&L has been regained, take control and teach the student how/where to L00kout after the rollout.
5. Then move on to rolling out on features and finally onto headings.
6. Then demo the whole thing the other way, emphasising the different attitude due to offset seating. Allow the student to practise.
Take the opportunity to include some turns in each direction on the way back to the aerodrome.
Of course the use of rudder etc will be covered, but the question was about the sequence, not the precise content.
2. Then teach the entry.
3. Then let the student practise the entry and maintenance.
4. IHC; WIGYC all I want you to do is to recover to the S&L attitude when I say 'roll out', any questions, YHC. "Roll Out". Shortly after S&L has been regained, take control and teach the student how/where to L00kout after the rollout.
5. Then move on to rolling out on features and finally onto headings.
6. Then demo the whole thing the other way, emphasising the different attitude due to offset seating. Allow the student to practise.
Take the opportunity to include some turns in each direction on the way back to the aerodrome.
Of course the use of rudder etc will be covered, but the question was about the sequence, not the precise content.
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 12
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From: Differing
Demo the entry, maintenance and the exit. Point out in maintenance the desired AoB for normal turn / attitude.
1.Teach- entry. Good pre turn lookout, look straight ahead then commence roll to desired AoB, neutralise controls (not always centralise). Return to wings level and let them have a go.
2.Teach- maintenance. Good lookout esp' in direction of turn, Check attitude, adjust as necessary, check instruments(airspeed etc). Let them have a go.
3.Teach- exit onto a specific heading reference. Lookout, then look straight ahead roll to wings level, anticipate roll out onto feature, lookout when wings are level esp' blind side. Let them have a go at all three obviously starting from wings level.
4.If it happens naturally during the above teach recovery from spiral descent if not I would induce it at this stage.
1.Teach- entry. Good pre turn lookout, look straight ahead then commence roll to desired AoB, neutralise controls (not always centralise). Return to wings level and let them have a go.
2.Teach- maintenance. Good lookout esp' in direction of turn, Check attitude, adjust as necessary, check instruments(airspeed etc). Let them have a go.
3.Teach- exit onto a specific heading reference. Lookout, then look straight ahead roll to wings level, anticipate roll out onto feature, lookout when wings are level esp' blind side. Let them have a go at all three obviously starting from wings level.
4.If it happens naturally during the above teach recovery from spiral descent if not I would induce it at this stage.
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: these mist covered mountains are a home now for me.
It emphasises the different attitude due to offset seating.
Get him used to one attitude first, whilst perfecting Bloggs' mechanical technique, before shocking him with the whole new picture of a turn in the opposite direction.
Get him used to one attitude first, whilst perfecting Bloggs' mechanical technique, before shocking him with the whole new picture of a turn in the opposite direction.
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: Europe
I don't know how all of this is done in JAR land, but during my 1500+ hours of instructing "over there", straight and level flight, climbs, descents and turns were all taught in the first few lessons (is ex9 the same as flight #9?) together with the use and effect of controls. With letting the student play around with the controls a bit, a bit of demonstrating a comfortable entry and exit, and focus on keeping the airplane trimmed, it all seemed to work out by itself. Magic, isn't it?
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
I don't know how all of this is done in JAR land, but during my 1500+ hours of instructing "over there", straight and level flight, climbs, descents and turns were all taught in the first few lessons (is ex9 the same as flight #9?) together with the use and effect of controls.
12 exercises are taught - the same exercise 12 times.
Whereas in €uroland, a structured approach is used with specific lesson objectives. And students never 'play around with the controls a bit', they are taught to fly in a disciplined manner.
Joined: Apr 2009
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From: Hotel Gypsy
I don't offer an alternative, but I often think that Ex9 sits uncomfortably after 4, 6, 7 & 8.
My point is that, by the time you have squared away S&L, climbing, descending and all the other gubbins, many students have already had exposure to turning - In reality, they have some idea what is required. Of course, 9(ii) should pull everything together but I do find that elements of 9 appear earlier in the whole process. My only constructive point is that these first exercises should have the continuity of a single instructor so that any 'melding' can be captured.
PS. Bank, balance, back-pressure. With sharp students I do the whole lot in one. With the vast majority of students I break it down into entry, maintenance and 'rolling-out' (somewhat different order to Beagle but we all have a good reason for a bit of variance). I always start with right turns and, as Beagle says, get the student to be comfortable with those before doing left turns (more disconcerting for the nervous type).
My point is that, by the time you have squared away S&L, climbing, descending and all the other gubbins, many students have already had exposure to turning - In reality, they have some idea what is required. Of course, 9(ii) should pull everything together but I do find that elements of 9 appear earlier in the whole process. My only constructive point is that these first exercises should have the continuity of a single instructor so that any 'melding' can be captured. PS. Bank, balance, back-pressure. With sharp students I do the whole lot in one. With the vast majority of students I break it down into entry, maintenance and 'rolling-out' (somewhat different order to Beagle but we all have a good reason for a bit of variance). I always start with right turns and, as Beagle says, get the student to be comfortable with those before doing left turns (more disconcerting for the nervous type).
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,658
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From: Canada
I make a particular point of not discussing the AI untill all the presolo exercises are mastered. Students should learn to recognize the bank angle and the aircraft attitude by what they see looking out the windshield. I have found too many students from other instructors were going head down at the same time they were rolling into the turn. This is particularly bad with ab initio students who have been polluted by MS Flight Simulator. I always cover the AI if I find the student flying the instruments instead of the horizon.
Joined: Jan 1999
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
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From: Slowly decaying (disgracefully)
BEagle has it in post #6 
.
A question to those who say teach the entry first - how does the poor bod know what attitude to set/hold in the entry if they haven't previously memorised it? teaching maintenance first is clearly a more logical teaching sequence.
HFD
.A question to those who say teach the entry first - how does the poor bod know what attitude to set/hold in the entry if they haven't previously memorised it? teaching maintenance first is clearly a more logical teaching sequence.
HFD
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,658
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From: Canada
RE post 6
I bring the rudder in at the very start. Every time the ailerons are deflected the rudder should be used. You have to develop good habits right away because modern trainers will let you get away with poor or non existance yaw control.
I bring the rudder in at the very start. Every time the ailerons are deflected the rudder should be used. You have to develop good habits right away because modern trainers will let you get away with poor or non existance yaw control.
Joined: Jan 2006
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
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From: Between a rock and a hard place
Even though teaching in US, I have my JAA FI and try to implement the structured approach on my students..... I know I know, I do step away a tad from the syllabus but I try to be flexible, and the end result is better. Team leader agrees, all fine!
And for the original question, how to teach level turns;
Firstly, let the students maintain a level turn I put them in, emphasizing the "visual picture" by using dashboard, cowling, horizon... give them small hints what I use.
Secondly, teach entry
1. Look Out!!
2. Aileron
3. Rudder
4. Back-pressure
5. Opposite aileron
6. Relieve some rudder (not very noticeable in C172)
Thirdly, exit of turn
1. LOOK OUT
2. Aileron
2. Rudder
3. Yoke slightly forward (..or remove back-pressure)
4. Centralize
...with instruments more or less covered up, quite early in their training. I fly with too many FS nerds!!
And for the original question, how to teach level turns;
Firstly, let the students maintain a level turn I put them in, emphasizing the "visual picture" by using dashboard, cowling, horizon... give them small hints what I use.
Secondly, teach entry
1. Look Out!!
2. Aileron
3. Rudder
4. Back-pressure
5. Opposite aileron
6. Relieve some rudder (not very noticeable in C172)
Thirdly, exit of turn
1. LOOK OUT
2. Aileron
2. Rudder
3. Yoke slightly forward (..or remove back-pressure)
4. Centralize
...with instruments more or less covered up, quite early in their training. I fly with too many FS nerds!!