How do you teach turning?
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I was taught what 172_driver describes, but have come to realise that aileron and backpressure goes together in a synchronized movement, i.e. not aileron first and back pressure when correct bank angle is achieved.
A smoth increase from no back pressure to the nessecary back pressure during roll gives you a nice and smoth turn. Use the same smoth back pressure release movement when you roll out of the turn.
The thing I try to point out is that it's not a step1, step 2, step 3 etc.
And yes, I'm not an instructor, just a 60 hours post-ppl that learned this after my skills test
A smoth increase from no back pressure to the nessecary back pressure during roll gives you a nice and smoth turn. Use the same smoth back pressure release movement when you roll out of the turn.
The thing I try to point out is that it's not a step1, step 2, step 3 etc.
And yes, I'm not an instructor, just a 60 hours post-ppl that learned this after my skills test
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I agree, it's a simultaneous process. However, for a first time student you have to give them something concrete to work with. When they practice they are going to realise how to do all the steps in a smooth flow...
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Rudder is used in conjunction with aileron to prevent adverse yaw. Thus, when deflecting the aileron you have to deflect the rudder to stay coordinated.
To me, it sounds like your roll-out is uncoordinated. I don't know your level of experience though, perhaps higher than mine.
To me, it sounds like your roll-out is uncoordinated. I don't know your level of experience though, perhaps higher than mine.
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As to the use of rudder when coming out of a turn it will vary from one airplane to another for instance if you attempt to come out of a turn in say a PBY by leading with aileron as in this description.
Thirdly, exit of turn
1. LOOK OUT
2. Aileron
2. Rudder
3. Yoke slightly forward (..or remove back-pressure)
4. Centralize
The airplane will yaw in the opposite direction of deflection of the aileron, however in an Airbus you do not use rudder period.
I can't remember exactly how a 172 responds to the use of the controls but as I recall leading with rudder was the best way to stop yaw......but for sure it has been a long time since I flew one.
One more comment, the angle of bank and how quickly you wish to stop the turn will make a big difference in how aggressively you apply rudder even in a 172.
Thirdly, exit of turn
1. LOOK OUT
2. Aileron
2. Rudder
3. Yoke slightly forward (..or remove back-pressure)
4. Centralize
The airplane will yaw in the opposite direction of deflection of the aileron, however in an Airbus you do not use rudder period.
I can't remember exactly how a 172 responds to the use of the controls but as I recall leading with rudder was the best way to stop yaw......but for sure it has been a long time since I flew one.
One more comment, the angle of bank and how quickly you wish to stop the turn will make a big difference in how aggressively you apply rudder even in a 172.
Last edited by Chuck Ellsworth; 29th Oct 2009 at 02:35.
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I seldom post on this forum, however I thought I would share my thoughts on this.
Flying Instructors & Examiners (14 Viewing)
A place for instructors to communicate with one another because some of them get a bit tired of the attitude that instructing is the lowest form of aviation, as seems to prevail on some of the other forums!
You should never feel inferior as a flight instructor as it is the highest calling a pilot can aspire to.
Flying Instructors & Examiners (14 Viewing)
A place for instructors to communicate with one another because some of them get a bit tired of the attitude that instructing is the lowest form of aviation, as seems to prevail on some of the other forums!
You should never feel inferior as a flight instructor as it is the highest calling a pilot can aspire to.
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The term Rudder
I suggest that the term "rudder" should be used with the term "balance". If the aircraft is balanced the ball will be in the centre. Balanced flight is what you are trying to achieve in the turn and in most flight situations.
Tmb
Tmb
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I find that the balance ball brings its own particular problem. From the outset I've been told we should actively discourage use of instruments in the formative stages (I know the FAA way is different, but just hear me out please). However, it is very difficult for a student to recognise when an aircraft is out of balance without reference to the ball. How/when do other instructors introduce the balance ball? Do you use it to confirm something (ie set what you feel to be right and then check) or as more of an active instrument? Also, how would you introduce use of the balance ball when entering/leaving a turn? I'm not sure I would want to do it this way. I find I spend a lot of time teaching coordination during Ex4 where I'm trying to get the student to apply the correct amount of rudder against aileron (I demonstrate adverse yaw by 'weaving' the aircraft and then major on how to counter this with rudder). The aim must be for the pilot to sub-consciously apply rudder whenever he applies aileron.
Chuck - in the 172 the amount of rudder used depends on the direction of turn.
Chuck - in the 172 the amount of rudder used depends on the direction of turn.
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Everything (except slipping and spin entry) is done in balance. Keeping the aircraft in balance is a requirement from exercise 4.
Lookout
Attitude
Instrument
Please note that "Instrument" is singular. That part of the scan is not designed to be a full pannel scan but a brief check on 1 instrument and then while looking out again, decide if what was seen is corect or requires something to be done.
Taking a 0.2 second glance at the ball is not going to cause a major issue.
I teach how to maintain the turn and then teach the entry and exit.
The entry is simply;
"From straight and level flight select the turning attitude while keeping the aircraft in balance and altitude constant"
The exit is simply;
"From level turning flight select the straight and level attitude while keeping the aircraft in balance and altitude constant"
I would not subscribe to trying to tell the student in the air that ;
Rudder must be applied now because of adverse yaw.
Rudder must be applied now due to a change in power.
Rudder must be applied now due to a change in airspeed.
Far simpler to get it straight from the start - in all cases;
Rudder must be applied to maintain balanced flight. i.e. keep the ball in the middle. Who cares why it is not in the middle just kick it back in there or better still never let it out of the cage!!
Initially teaching the outside view, control pressures and then refining the accuracy with a glance at the ball / altimeter.
Lookout
Attitude
Instrument
Please note that "Instrument" is singular. That part of the scan is not designed to be a full pannel scan but a brief check on 1 instrument and then while looking out again, decide if what was seen is corect or requires something to be done.
Taking a 0.2 second glance at the ball is not going to cause a major issue.
I teach how to maintain the turn and then teach the entry and exit.
The entry is simply;
"From straight and level flight select the turning attitude while keeping the aircraft in balance and altitude constant"
The exit is simply;
"From level turning flight select the straight and level attitude while keeping the aircraft in balance and altitude constant"
I would not subscribe to trying to tell the student in the air that ;
Rudder must be applied now because of adverse yaw.
Rudder must be applied now due to a change in power.
Rudder must be applied now due to a change in airspeed.
Far simpler to get it straight from the start - in all cases;
Rudder must be applied to maintain balanced flight. i.e. keep the ball in the middle. Who cares why it is not in the middle just kick it back in there or better still never let it out of the cage!!
Initially teaching the outside view, control pressures and then refining the accuracy with a glance at the ball / altimeter.
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The use of rudder in turns can be quite different in a specific airplane if you convert the machine from wheels to floats.
I fly a Husky A1B which had control harmony much like the Pitts Special ( which was what prompted me to choose the Husky over the Super Cub ) until we installed Whipline amphibious floats.
Unless I use rudder during the entry and exit of a turn the ball will be way out of center and stay there.
Why would that be?
I fly a Husky A1B which had control harmony much like the Pitts Special ( which was what prompted me to choose the Husky over the Super Cub ) until we installed Whipline amphibious floats.
Unless I use rudder during the entry and exit of a turn the ball will be way out of center and stay there.
Why would that be?
Control of Yaw is IMO consistantly the weakest part of flying skills in the PPL's I have flown with. This is because unlike classic trainers (cub,champ,C140 etc) you can get away with flying modern trainers with your feet flat on the floor as much of the Yaw inducing factors have been designed out of the airplane. With respect to teaching turns in a C 172 or Pa 28, the adverse yaw is subtle enough it is not reasonable to have a student be able to detect and correct for it by visual indications and seat of the pants feel. Therfore you have to use the ball as an aid for the student. Eventually the student will automatically apply the appropriate rudder, and be come less dependent on using the ball to correct yaw. But I strongly believe this must be taught right from the beginning. An emphasis on maintaining coordinated flight that is established from the very first flight will build life long good habits.
Why would that be Chuck? Partly because of all the increased surface area in front of the CG, becoming affected by the slipstream, and your poor little rudder not being powerful enough to fight in a slip situation...
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Why would that be Chuck? Partly because of all the increased surface area in front of the CG, becoming affected by the slipstream, and your poor little rudder not being powerful enough to fight in a slip situation...
I thought it was because there is not enough side fuselage area and vertical fin area to counteract the added side area of the floats ahead of the vertical axis.
Thus the primary or most effective control surface to control adverse yaw would be?
When I first received my instructors rating over fifty years ago we were taught that attitudes and movements and effect of controls was the most important lesson in flight training and unless the student fully understood the subject and could demonstrate same we were not to move on to the next lesson.
Judging by what I observe flying with pilots now this seems to be ignored by far to many instructors.
I thought it was because there is not enough side fuselage area and vertical fin area to counteract the added side area of the floats ahead of the vertical axis.
Thus the primary or most effective control surface to control adverse yaw would be?
When I first received my instructors rating over fifty years ago we were taught that attitudes and movements and effect of controls was the most important lesson in flight training and unless the student fully understood the subject and could demonstrate same we were not to move on to the next lesson.
Judging by what I observe flying with pilots now this seems to be ignored by far to many instructors.
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I see this discussion is still ongoing so I thought that it may be beneficial to examine it a little bit closer.
When referring to situational awareness with regard to the airplanes attitude and mentioning the word parallax how do you relate this picture in mountainous regions with the quickly changing surface horizon?
When referring to situational awareness with regard to the airplanes attitude and mentioning the word parallax how do you relate this picture in mountainous regions with the quickly changing surface horizon?
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With nothing better to do at the moment I thought I would share some of the patter we were taught in the fifties for attitudes and movements.
To demonstrate how to produce desirable yaw we did it this way and the patter was as follows.
From straight and level flight we banked the airplane to approximately 30 degrees of bank and checked the bank angle with aileron and neutral rudder, as the bank angle stopped we had the student note that the nose moved toward the down wing, that movement they saw was called yaw and in that instance was produced by aileron.
Then back to wings level in level flight and once again we demonstrated yaw by rolling the airplane into a 30 degree bank and checking the bank angle but this time we used opposite rudder to stop the yaw and explained that rudder can prevent yaw.
Back to straight and level flight and have the student pick out an object ahead of the airplane and this time we demonstrated that the rudder can not only prevent yaw but it can also produce yaw.
Holding the wings level with aileron we then demonstrated how the rudder will yaw the airplane back and fourth..therefore rudder will both produce and prevent yaw.
I find that a great percentage of pilots really do not fully understand the effects of controls with regard to attitudes and movements..especially rudder.
To demonstrate how to produce desirable yaw we did it this way and the patter was as follows.
From straight and level flight we banked the airplane to approximately 30 degrees of bank and checked the bank angle with aileron and neutral rudder, as the bank angle stopped we had the student note that the nose moved toward the down wing, that movement they saw was called yaw and in that instance was produced by aileron.
Then back to wings level in level flight and once again we demonstrated yaw by rolling the airplane into a 30 degree bank and checking the bank angle but this time we used opposite rudder to stop the yaw and explained that rudder can prevent yaw.
Back to straight and level flight and have the student pick out an object ahead of the airplane and this time we demonstrated that the rudder can not only prevent yaw but it can also produce yaw.
Holding the wings level with aileron we then demonstrated how the rudder will yaw the airplane back and fourth..therefore rudder will both produce and prevent yaw.
I find that a great percentage of pilots really do not fully understand the effects of controls with regard to attitudes and movements..especially rudder.
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Chuck that pretty much how we are still taught how to teach it over the pond.
My experience in the US was
"this is a turn, you have control try one"
"i have control, not quite right i will show you again hurdey gurdy"
"you have control, well done, now try one the other way"
"well done, now i will show you one while we are climbing"
........
And people wonder how some get to go solo in 4-5 hours.
And it was an Emberly Riddle trained Instructor.
200 hours later on my Instructors course I learned how to fly properly.
My experience in the US was
"this is a turn, you have control try one"
"i have control, not quite right i will show you again hurdey gurdy"
"you have control, well done, now try one the other way"
"well done, now i will show you one while we are climbing"
........
And people wonder how some get to go solo in 4-5 hours.
And it was an Emberly Riddle trained Instructor.
200 hours later on my Instructors course I learned how to fly properly.
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Can someone explain to me why the private pilot license was taught in thirty hours in the 1950's and on tail wheel airplanes and today the average is around 75 to 100 hours on very basic simple to fly nose wheel trainers?
Maybe I was poorly trained?
Maybe I was poorly trained?
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There are many airplanes that have no artificial horizons and are flown in mountainous areas.
Therefore we must go back to basic training to determine how one maintains a constant angle of bank and altitude turn in that environment.
For sure the answer does not lie in using an artificial horizon.
Are you an instructor ?
I am asking so as not to get into an unnecessary argument as it serves no useful purpose.
Therefore we must go back to basic training to determine how one maintains a constant angle of bank and altitude turn in that environment.
For sure the answer does not lie in using an artificial horizon.
Are you an instructor ?
I am asking so as not to get into an unnecessary argument as it serves no useful purpose.