SEP Renewal After 24 months.
Join Date: May 2001
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Just one point worth mentioning is that thanks to a stupid CAA drafting cock up, the examiner signature has to be obtained within the 3 months prior to expiry of the rating regardless of when the instructor flight took place and regardless of how soon within the second 12months the necessary hours, take offs, and landings were accumulated.
This ridiculous requirement can have the effect of leading one to postpone the instructor flight until late in the second year when such issues as weather, availablity , inclination, finance, etc may become an issue, leading to expiry of the rating and the need for full retest etc. It can also mean having to go through the third degree from some examiner who does not necessarily recognise an instructor sign off obtained earlier in the year from someone he has never heard of, as being valid.
There is no reason at all why this situation cannot be corrected and both signatures obtained as soon as the necessary second year flying requirements have been met. All it takes if for the CAA to recognise and admit the cock up and put things back the way they used to be.
This ridiculous requirement can have the effect of leading one to postpone the instructor flight until late in the second year when such issues as weather, availablity , inclination, finance, etc may become an issue, leading to expiry of the rating and the need for full retest etc. It can also mean having to go through the third degree from some examiner who does not necessarily recognise an instructor sign off obtained earlier in the year from someone he has never heard of, as being valid.
There is no reason at all why this situation cannot be corrected and both signatures obtained as soon as the necessary second year flying requirements have been met. All it takes if for the CAA to recognise and admit the cock up and put things back the way they used to be.
......thanks to a stupid CAA drafting cock up......
As a result, many people have probably suffered because the Authority is too proud to admit that it ballsed this thing up...
Join Date: Jul 2000
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To keep the same validity dates it must be signed within the three months prior to expiry.
However, it can be signed before the three month prior to expiry but in that case your two years then starts from the date it was signed. Useful if you are going out of the country etc. but otherwise better to wait.
Also can't see any reason why this rule would make you delay your one hour flight with the instructor, the examiner just checks it was any time in the last year of validity, no reason to wait to the end of that year.
Both these rules can be found in LASORS, available free off the CAA website.
Don't trust everything you read here (including from me), check for yourself!
However, it can be signed before the three month prior to expiry but in that case your two years then starts from the date it was signed. Useful if you are going out of the country etc. but otherwise better to wait.
Also can't see any reason why this rule would make you delay your one hour flight with the instructor, the examiner just checks it was any time in the last year of validity, no reason to wait to the end of that year.
Both these rules can be found in LASORS, available free off the CAA website.
Don't trust everything you read here (including from me), check for yourself!
Last edited by Cloud Chaser; 8th Mar 2009 at 12:46.
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Signature & Endorsement when revalidating a PPL SEP
I have been asked to do an SEP revalidation one hour flight with a PPL and wondered if I literally just sign his log book (adding my licence number) - or whether I need to add any kind of endorsement and if so what wording is used. I see there are specific sticky labels for Differences training - but nothing is mentioned in Lasors about re-validation. I know in the US there is a specific BFR endorsement - is there anything similar that I need to use or should be aware of ?
I am an FI(R) and this will be the first bi-annual flight I have conducted.
I understand that I write nothing on the licence and that that has to go to an examiner subsequently.
I am an FI(R) and this will be the first bi-annual flight I have conducted.
I understand that I write nothing on the licence and that that has to go to an examiner subsequently.
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I just write in the remarks of the log book.
SEP 1 hour with instructor sign and lic number.
Some people put SATIS in but I got told by an old hand examiner not to put any comments about the quality of flight as it then means you are signing them off as competent. Your job is just to sit next to them for an hour to comply with the regulations not to test them on thier flying skills.
Its an old well run debate on PPrune what you are actually meant to do on these flights. If the person is competent they can very enjoyable, if the person for a better word is ****e you get into a grey area of rule interpretation which there are various opinions on. It is actually very rare you do get into "discussions" with the pilot if they are requiring additional training. The couple that I have had that did require a wee bit more, finished the discussion before it started by booking additional lessons before coming through for the debrief. But if they hadn't and refused my suggestion of futher training I would have signed thier log book as they had complied with the requirements of 1 hour dual.
SEP 1 hour with instructor sign and lic number.
Some people put SATIS in but I got told by an old hand examiner not to put any comments about the quality of flight as it then means you are signing them off as competent. Your job is just to sit next to them for an hour to comply with the regulations not to test them on thier flying skills.
Its an old well run debate on PPrune what you are actually meant to do on these flights. If the person is competent they can very enjoyable, if the person for a better word is ****e you get into a grey area of rule interpretation which there are various opinions on. It is actually very rare you do get into "discussions" with the pilot if they are requiring additional training. The couple that I have had that did require a wee bit more, finished the discussion before it started by booking additional lessons before coming through for the debrief. But if they hadn't and refused my suggestion of futher training I would have signed thier log book as they had complied with the requirements of 1 hour dual.
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Revalidation
Quote: 'Your job is just to sit next to them for an hour to comply with the regulations not to test them on thier flying skills'.
The above is confused;
The 1 hour flight is a 'training ' flight. Sitting there and doing nothing is not an option.
The Flight Instructor signing the log book is the means to ensure that in the future the revalidating examiner can know that the flight was valid and met the requirement. i.e. should the PPL refuse to cooperate with the training then the instructor may decline to sign the logbook and should not in my view.
A lot of the problems that pilots such as the originator of this thread complains is caused by the CAA themselves. It is a ridiculus rule that a pilot who has met all the requirements cannot revalidate 1 second after the stroke of midnight without now having to be flight tested.
The revalidation process - paperwork scribbles- should be able to be undertaken anytime after the expiry date should the pilot have met all the revalidation requirements before expiry. They would not of course be able to fly until the signature is acquired.
The current system cannot make any claim to have a safety benefit!
The above is confused;
The 1 hour flight is a 'training ' flight. Sitting there and doing nothing is not an option.
The Flight Instructor signing the log book is the means to ensure that in the future the revalidating examiner can know that the flight was valid and met the requirement. i.e. should the PPL refuse to cooperate with the training then the instructor may decline to sign the logbook and should not in my view.
A lot of the problems that pilots such as the originator of this thread complains is caused by the CAA themselves. It is a ridiculus rule that a pilot who has met all the requirements cannot revalidate 1 second after the stroke of midnight without now having to be flight tested.
The revalidation process - paperwork scribbles- should be able to be undertaken anytime after the expiry date should the pilot have met all the revalidation requirements before expiry. They would not of course be able to fly until the signature is acquired.
The current system cannot make any claim to have a safety benefit!
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It has been shown by the CAA that the BFR, 90 day rules, annual MEP test, and the sea of unnecessary over regulation introduced by JAA and EASA has no safety benefit whatsoever. All it has done is add more expense and hassle and deter people from entering GA and increase the 75% or so who do not renew their licences on expiry (Renewable licences-another unnecessary tax introduced by the boys who invented it for their own benefit.)
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At the risk of restarting the debate, below is the wording for the instructor sign off as recommended by the CAA when the biennial training flight requirement was first initiated.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I certify that I have satisfactorily completed
with .
Licence No. .
The one hour instructional flight required by
JAR-FCL 1.245(c) (1) (ii) (B) for the revalidation
of a single-pilot, single-engine, class rating.
CRI;FI;etc. John Smith .
.
Date .
Signed .
PPL No. UK/PP*******/A
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note the wording on the first line. i.e. the use of the word "satisfactorily".
I.E The flight is not a test but must be completed to the satisfaction of the Instructor.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I certify that I have satisfactorily completed
with .
Licence No. .
The one hour instructional flight required by
JAR-FCL 1.245(c) (1) (ii) (B) for the revalidation
of a single-pilot, single-engine, class rating.
CRI;FI;etc. John Smith .
.
Date .
Signed .
PPL No. UK/PP*******/A
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note the wording on the first line. i.e. the use of the word "satisfactorily".
I.E The flight is not a test but must be completed to the satisfaction of the Instructor.
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It is an option if you define a goal and the person completes said goal with ease.
Its a stupid system and examiners like yourself should be doing these "flights" with the power to pull peoples tickets.
And what about us dodgy pro's who never have to sit with a SEP instructor because our multicrew LPC is counted as the hour.
Its a stupid system and examiners like yourself should be doing these "flights" with the power to pull peoples tickets.
And what about us dodgy pro's who never have to sit with a SEP instructor because our multicrew LPC is counted as the hour.
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And what about us dodgy pro's who never have to sit with a SEP instructor because our multicrew LPC is counted as the hour.
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Yes, the ridicule of the SEP instructor who has to fly with an SEP instructor to revalidate his SEP rating?
"Hi, my name is John I have 1200hrs SEP P1 in the last 2 years"
"Hi John, I'm Fred and I only have 300hrs total time. However I recently passed my FI course. You want me to sign you off?"
"Hi, my name is John I have 1200hrs SEP P1 in the last 2 years"
"Hi John, I'm Fred and I only have 300hrs total time. However I recently passed my FI course. You want me to sign you off?"
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"well John I can see you have done this quite a bit, but the way we were taught at oxford is that..........."
"Right Fred sign the logbook and if you get blood on it you will be copying the whole thing out into a new one. And I suggest you don't talk pish to the PFA lads because they are all famers and use thier teeth to castrate the piglets"
"Right Fred sign the logbook and if you get blood on it you will be copying the whole thing out into a new one. And I suggest you don't talk pish to the PFA lads because they are all famers and use thier teeth to castrate the piglets"
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I don't mean to open this can of worms again ... but there is no requirement for either training or assessment on the "training flight"; furthermore, it is not a test, so there can be no pass/fail assessment. The only requirement under JAR-FCL 1.245(c) is to fly for an hour with an instructor.
JD
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At 300 hours Fred barely knows how to fly themsleves.
They are not even remotely qualified to make a judgement about if johns habits are bad, good or standard. An FIE is in the position to to do this which is why john really doesn't give a
what fred thinks. And even if they are bad habits there is absolutely nothing Fred can do to stop John from flying or Instructing.
The mostly likely event which will occur flying with john is that Fred will do all the learning and John will have an empty pocket for a tick in the box.
They are not even remotely qualified to make a judgement about if johns habits are bad, good or standard. An FIE is in the position to to do this which is why john really doesn't give a
what fred thinks. And even if they are bad habits there is absolutely nothing Fred can do to stop John from flying or Instructing.The mostly likely event which will occur flying with john is that Fred will do all the learning and John will have an empty pocket for a tick in the box.
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More than Satisfactory Feedback
Many thx for the feedback so far - very, very useful. 
Any more thoughts as to writing the adjective "Satisfactory" ? Is this wording a requirement or purely optional ? And does that have any implications for me in terms of potential risk ?
Any more thoughts as to writing the adjective "Satisfactory" ? Is this wording a requirement or purely optional ? And does that have any implications for me in terms of potential risk ?
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Revalidation
The word 'satisfactory' should not be related to the pilots performance during the flight.
You are simply stating that the particular requirement has been 'satisfied' for the purposes of a later revalidation of the rating. i.e. the flight did actually take place and that it was a duration of at least one hour. The CAA recommended content for the flight was withdrawn some years ago.
The licence signing Examiner needs to know that the flight has satisfied that particular element of the requirements for a paperwork renewal, that is all.
You are simply stating that the particular requirement has been 'satisfied' for the purposes of a later revalidation of the rating. i.e. the flight did actually take place and that it was a duration of at least one hour. The CAA recommended content for the flight was withdrawn some years ago.
The licence signing Examiner needs to know that the flight has satisfied that particular element of the requirements for a paperwork renewal, that is all.
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There is a current proposal buried in one of the NPA's for pilots to have to do a flight test to revalidate. I can't recall the timescales off the top off my head, but it might be every alternate revalidation or maybe every 5 years.