what is the world coming too.... spinning
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what is the world coming too.... spinning
At Aero Expo with some spotty 12 year old BA flying instructor sat in the frasca STD sim - voice from behind asks him to try to "Spin It".... to which his reply was..... err i dont know how to sping... i've never actually done one.....and his female accomplice.... retorts...... "we are not allowed to teach spinning its tooo dangerous"
WTF.....
WTF.....
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If he holds a JAR Flight Instructor rating then he will have done spinning as a part of his course and demonstrated a spin during his test.
His colleague is quite right to say that teaching spinning as a part of the PPL course IS too dangerous. Before it was removed from the syllabus it was killing instructors and students every year. The outcry that said that post-PPL stall-spin incidents would go up was unfounded as there is more emphasis placed on incipient stall awareness.
Much PPL training is now carried out on types not aproved for spinning anyway.
Perhaps the team on the Frasca simulator should have explained themselves better. Maybe they were under pressure from punters asking inappropriate questions not relevant to what they were doing.
How many GA simulators CAN demonstrate spin recovery under IMC conditions, without going 'tilt'? Not many, I suspect...
TheOddOne
His colleague is quite right to say that teaching spinning as a part of the PPL course IS too dangerous. Before it was removed from the syllabus it was killing instructors and students every year. The outcry that said that post-PPL stall-spin incidents would go up was unfounded as there is more emphasis placed on incipient stall awareness.
Much PPL training is now carried out on types not aproved for spinning anyway.
Perhaps the team on the Frasca simulator should have explained themselves better. Maybe they were under pressure from punters asking inappropriate questions not relevant to what they were doing.
How many GA simulators CAN demonstrate spin recovery under IMC conditions, without going 'tilt'? Not many, I suspect...
TheOddOne
In the Airmail days prior to the invention of instrument flying--in IMC--pilots would try to lock themselves into a climb to get on top---but if the cloud layer was too thick and they lost orientation and went into a spiral [unknown condition] they learned 'stick back to stall and full rudder'--to induce a spin known condition--so when the spun out of the base they could simply recover from the spin notwithstanding any intervening terrain
Read 'by the seat of my pants''----sorry can't remember the author---but---
PA
Read 'by the seat of my pants''----sorry can't remember the author---but---
PA
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odd one - sorry chum, but you are teaching someone to fly an a/c as their first step towards learning the principles of flight and to think that the student will never in their time as a PPL holder will fly a type of a/c that is capable of spinning is a foolish move.... Incipient is the same syptoms and entry required for the full spin.....just because most people are tuaght to fly in PA 28, DA 40 etc, people are still being taught in T67 and PA38 etc, let alone the new types coming on the market for the VLA cat that can be flown group A...
Instructors only usually wipe themselves out if they are inexpereinced and unaware of the aircrafts capabilities as well as their own.... alas another reason to bring back the PPL instructors - those who do not see it as a stepping stone therefore have a greater respect for the full flight envelope instead of the partial bit that you use straight and level and above the stall speed.......
Technology and efficiency in the training syllabus is going to come round to haunt us again...... Synthetic vision in GA will be the next trauma for us to contend with...... not that there is anything we can do to stop technology - we seem very poor at understanding and teaching best practises......
oh and wasnt IMC on the sim it was VFR......
Instructors only usually wipe themselves out if they are inexpereinced and unaware of the aircrafts capabilities as well as their own.... alas another reason to bring back the PPL instructors - those who do not see it as a stepping stone therefore have a greater respect for the full flight envelope instead of the partial bit that you use straight and level and above the stall speed.......
Technology and efficiency in the training syllabus is going to come round to haunt us again...... Synthetic vision in GA will be the next trauma for us to contend with...... not that there is anything we can do to stop technology - we seem very poor at understanding and teaching best practises......
oh and wasnt IMC on the sim it was VFR......
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When I did my PPL many years ago spinning was part of the syllabus, and I think that it should have stayed in.
As an instructor today, I encourage all my students to spin, as it gives them an invaluable insight into the handling characterisitcs of the a/c and I have found that those students who opt to spin develop more confidence in the a/c and their GH skills show a distinct improvement.
Providing the exercise is carried out in an approved a/c and all the relevant safety checks are completed, there is no reason why spinning can't be demonstrated....
As an instructor today, I encourage all my students to spin, as it gives them an invaluable insight into the handling characterisitcs of the a/c and I have found that those students who opt to spin develop more confidence in the a/c and their GH skills show a distinct improvement.
Providing the exercise is carried out in an approved a/c and all the relevant safety checks are completed, there is no reason why spinning can't be demonstrated....
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Couldnt agree more......! quite scary that the whole training syllabus seems to be focused on getting you through training for your licence rather than teaching you how to fly safely and teaching you skills that will stay with you for your entire flying career and will assist you either in a 737 or a PA 28...... the numbers of big commercial aircraft we are now starting to lose through poor basic airmanship and an over reliance on "heads in - pfd technology - reliance on data from the multiple TV screens in front of us" - rather than heads out, horizon, wings, thrust, back to grass routes principles of flight...etc.....
What would the outcome of the Eclipse incident in Chicago Midway been last week been if it wasnt for a very experienced GA pilot being at the controls that basically said.... ok i have a glider..... BA 777 - Eclipse 500...... technology eh..... mmmmmmm prefer the Stearman anyday...
Couldnt agree more......! quite scary that the whole training syllabus seems to be focused on getting you through training for your licence rather than teaching you how to fly safely and teaching you skills that will stay with you for your entire flying career and will assist you either in a 737 or a PA 28...... the numbers of big commercial aircraft we are now starting to lose through poor basic airmanship and an over reliance on "heads in - pfd technology - reliance on data from the multiple TV screens in front of us" - rather than heads out, horizon, wings, thrust, back to grass routes principles of flight...etc.....
What would the outcome of the Eclipse incident in Chicago Midway been last week been if it wasnt for a very experienced GA pilot being at the controls that basically said.... ok i have a glider..... BA 777 - Eclipse 500...... technology eh..... mmmmmmm prefer the Stearman anyday...
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You said,
"the numbers of big commercial aircraft we are now starting to lose through poor basic airmanship and an over reliance on "heads in - pfd technology - reliance on data from the multiple TV screens in front of us" - rather than heads out, horizon, wings, thrust, back to grass routes principles of flight...etc....."
Try flying a fast heavy aeroplane in the London TMA bursting at the seams, in the manner you suggest and there would be chaos. Us 'systems managers' as we are sometimes referred to, rely on EFIS to safely operate the equipment in a very high workload environment. Its not a jolly in Tommy at 90kts in class G airspace. As for spinning with PPL students, forget it. Instructing is dangerous enough without the added risk of teaching some student a manoevre he may never have the chance to execute successfully. Most stall spin incidents happen close to the ground so why spin and teach the recovery from 5000ft? A better approach is drilling the low speed awareness into the their cannisters so they can avoid theses situations.
Oh and where is the info to back up your theory of increasing hull losses due to poor basic airmanship. I am intrigued?
"the numbers of big commercial aircraft we are now starting to lose through poor basic airmanship and an over reliance on "heads in - pfd technology - reliance on data from the multiple TV screens in front of us" - rather than heads out, horizon, wings, thrust, back to grass routes principles of flight...etc....."
Try flying a fast heavy aeroplane in the London TMA bursting at the seams, in the manner you suggest and there would be chaos. Us 'systems managers' as we are sometimes referred to, rely on EFIS to safely operate the equipment in a very high workload environment. Its not a jolly in Tommy at 90kts in class G airspace. As for spinning with PPL students, forget it. Instructing is dangerous enough without the added risk of teaching some student a manoevre he may never have the chance to execute successfully. Most stall spin incidents happen close to the ground so why spin and teach the recovery from 5000ft? A better approach is drilling the low speed awareness into the their cannisters so they can avoid theses situations.
Oh and where is the info to back up your theory of increasing hull losses due to poor basic airmanship. I am intrigued?
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Im with you shaun ryder - how on earth would knowing how to spin a light aircraft assist your basic airmanship skills in flying a modern glass cockpit 737 or airbus?? What load of crock, its 2 totally different types of flying.
And secondly, why would bringing back ppl instructors make a diference to spin training? Why would they have any greater appreciation for the 'flight envelope' (as you mention jetscream)?? Most ppl's I know have never spun an aircraft in their life! And i certainly wouldnt want to be in the cockpit with them even if they did!!!
And secondly, why would bringing back ppl instructors make a diference to spin training? Why would they have any greater appreciation for the 'flight envelope' (as you mention jetscream)?? Most ppl's I know have never spun an aircraft in their life! And i certainly wouldnt want to be in the cockpit with them even if they did!!!
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mmmm mike & shaun....... principles of flight are the same no matter if in a 737 or PA 28 - Mike.... i learnt to fly at L-O-S in 82 and still fly now and am fully conversant with heavy as well as light...... spinning is a very valuable and very safe exercise if currency is maintained... the point i am making is that the instrument scan and visual cues to fly with glass cockpit is completely different to that of older mechanical instruments...in that now we expect a message or alert to be displayed accompanied by a gong or other audible cue depending on the nature of the failure... this has allowed a lot of crews to become so engrossed in CAS display messages that they forget to fly the aircraft or forget the elementary basics of flight and destroy the aircraft and lives because they relied completely on the PFD display instead of true piloting skills and basic aerodynamics.. the evidence is well published... and you will both read the same information as i do on the subject...
Shaun, i am stunned you say that you need glass aircraft to fly in the TMA how come we still fly the 742 as a mechanical aircraft with 1/10 th of the glass you have yet manage to keep up with you without bumping into you...??
A txpdr, radar and now the luxury of TCAS has made it safer but you make it sound like if we dont have the glass we are unsafe and gonna die..... pah..!
Shaun, i am stunned you say that you need glass aircraft to fly in the TMA how come we still fly the 742 as a mechanical aircraft with 1/10 th of the glass you have yet manage to keep up with you without bumping into you...??
A txpdr, radar and now the luxury of TCAS has made it safer but you make it sound like if we dont have the glass we are unsafe and gonna die..... pah..!
Spinning wnet from the PPL syllabus many years ago because more people were being killed practicing it that were being saved. And rightly so in my opinion. I have lost two friends who died practicing spinning. It's more relevant learning how to avoid spinning and recovering from the incipient stage. Most GA aircraft will not enter a spin easily and when in one, need full pro spin controls to maintain it. Many also tend to recover if the controls are just centralised.
I agree that it's a confidence building exercise and that it improves handing skills. For a majority of my instructional career, I had been teaching spinning. But this was in the RAF and spin recvery is an essential part of a military pilot's training. But in GA aircraft, it's not necessary unless the pilot is going to do aerobatics in a more agile aircraft.
I agree that it's a confidence building exercise and that it improves handing skills. For a majority of my instructional career, I had been teaching spinning. But this was in the RAF and spin recvery is an essential part of a military pilot's training. But in GA aircraft, it's not necessary unless the pilot is going to do aerobatics in a more agile aircraft.
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Dont be stunned. Glass or steam driven there is no problem. However, your head is more likely to be stuck in an antiquated cockpit for longer than in a modern one. Your stick and rudder skills might be good, an autopilot does a better job in reducing the workload (I believe a 742 has one or two aswell). We would all love to hand fly during the day, unfortunately standards etc dictate against this. Nothing to do with basic airmanship. I will agree though that there are an unhealthy amount of pilots out there to which you refer.
We have all seen air crash investigation on sky, is the info that you are referring to?
We have all seen air crash investigation on sky, is the info that you are referring to?
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mmmm more like, AAIB, Chirp, Gasil, MOR's - interesting comment re glass versus mechanical.... but the trend is very much more more heads in with glass - cross referencing, looking up actions or CAS reset drill whilst the electric aircraft does it's own thing.... compared with mechanical that is much more direct and fairly easy to drill down and action isolated or spurrious warnings etc.... anyway thread is going off tangent now - and this was never meant to have relation to hand flying heavy metal - it was about principles of flight and the basics of an essential manouvre never being taught from the PPL training... spinning..... if spinning was taught correctly to the instructors in the first place, then they wouldnt kill themselves... and there was only a few accidents.... unless you can certify that the student will never fly an a/c capable of spinning then it should be taught.....just because some aircraft will not spin is not an excuse not to teach it.... and if you have never done a spin - how on earth can you teach people to recognise the onset..... other than saying never get near the stall??????
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pretty emotive subject this one.
I taught spin recovery as part of the course. The students used to get a firm 'don't try this after you get your licence or else!'. If its is properly briefed, properly taught and the student/new ppl knows his/her limitations (ie dont try it for fun), then is is an invaluable exercise.
Although, I know some FI's dont spin due to being, for want of a better word, scared of the manouvre. The commnets made by TheOddOne about it being too dangerous is a little sensationalist and inflexible. Or maybe he/she is one of the above instructors.
The highest proportion of accidents have been (not sure about the latest figures) CFiT. Mostly due to loss of control whilst in IMC. We do still however teach IMC ratings.
Generally, if you have the right attitude, appropriate aircraft, experienced in teaching the manouvre and sound approach to the lesson, its a rewarding and confidence building experience for the student.
BTW - Jetscream 32, 12 year old BA instructor? Was he/she a cadet FO or something like that. Or from one of the training schools dioing thier CPL/IR.
Although, I know some FI's dont spin due to being, for want of a better word, scared of the manouvre. The commnets made by TheOddOne about it being too dangerous is a little sensationalist and inflexible. Or maybe he/she is one of the above instructors.
The highest proportion of accidents have been (not sure about the latest figures) CFiT. Mostly due to loss of control whilst in IMC. We do still however teach IMC ratings.
Generally, if you have the right attitude, appropriate aircraft, experienced in teaching the manouvre and sound approach to the lesson, its a rewarding and confidence building experience for the student.
BTW - Jetscream 32, 12 year old BA instructor? Was he/she a cadet FO or something like that. Or from one of the training schools dioing thier CPL/IR.
Last edited by jamestkirk; 16th Jun 2008 at 09:19.
Good pilots know what the limits of their a/c are. How many pilots these days have done any aerobatics? In the days when basic training aircraft had aerobatic capability we often introduced some basic aeros before first solo! If you have never been upside-down in an a/c before and it happens because of some upset then you are less likely to respond correctly.
At least in the days when we taught spinning as part of the syllabus I used to think that something was achieved if the student came away thinking "I will never let the a/c do that on me".
Nothing inherently dangerous about spinning so long as you know what you are doing.
At least in the days when we taught spinning as part of the syllabus I used to think that something was achieved if the student came away thinking "I will never let the a/c do that on me".
Nothing inherently dangerous about spinning so long as you know what you are doing.
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Perhaps people were dying practising spinning 'caus they were doing it under the London TMA.
I'm glad I was taught how to recover. I would not like to have had to find out myself!
DO
I'm glad I was taught how to recover. I would not like to have had to find out myself!
DO
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jamestkirk - he didnt look old enough to shave put it that way....... 
i have nothing against the frozen atpl cadets, as i started in the air cadets, and did the 16th bithday solo in gliders then powered on 17th etc blah, blah.... however as fireflybob says - if the stude comes away thinking i am never gonna let an aircraft get me into that situation it is worth every bit of training... as Bob will atest... the T67 will spin like a top... however if you let go.... nothing happens it continues to spin and can then oscillate and flatten out - speed up, all sorts of fun and games... but if you recover correctly and with sufficient height then you can more importantly make the student understand that getting low / slow near the ground will ruin your day.....
500ft per turn including recovery from the ensuing dive, then re-enforced stall demonstration cos the ground looks like its filling the screen - really concentrates the mind..... and keeps you safe from ever getting close to that situation again.... hopefully..... oh well..
i have nothing against the frozen atpl cadets, as i started in the air cadets, and did the 16th bithday solo in gliders then powered on 17th etc blah, blah.... however as fireflybob says - if the stude comes away thinking i am never gonna let an aircraft get me into that situation it is worth every bit of training... as Bob will atest... the T67 will spin like a top... however if you let go.... nothing happens it continues to spin and can then oscillate and flatten out - speed up, all sorts of fun and games... but if you recover correctly and with sufficient height then you can more importantly make the student understand that getting low / slow near the ground will ruin your day.....500ft per turn including recovery from the ensuing dive, then re-enforced stall demonstration cos the ground looks like its filling the screen - really concentrates the mind..... and keeps you safe from ever getting close to that situation again.... hopefully..... oh well..
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I did at least one spinning session with every one of my students. In my opinion; yes it is not easy to get most a/c to spin in the first place; a lot easier to stall though. How many of us have seen people freeze up or do exactly the wrong thing when a 'surprise stall' comes along?
Therefore i do think spinning is well worth doing in the aircraft. It is not good enough to talk about it; and then point to the stall recovery sticker on the dash and say trust me; this is how all this works. They need to see it happening in a controlled and safe way. I think the emphasis as with stalls should be to make the student realize what these things look like; and more importantly why they need to be avoided in the first place.
Therefore i do think spinning is well worth doing in the aircraft. It is not good enough to talk about it; and then point to the stall recovery sticker on the dash and say trust me; this is how all this works. They need to see it happening in a controlled and safe way. I think the emphasis as with stalls should be to make the student realize what these things look like; and more importantly why they need to be avoided in the first place.
Crikey. I didn't realise how close to death I was this morning. That's the last time I switch off all the automatics in a 70 t aircraft in the London TMA.
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the T67 will spin like a top...
Are you sure that the instructors were not simply saying that they hadn't done spinning in the sim and was reluctant to do something that might break it? As has already been mentioned if they were instructors then they must have done spinning.