Student Records
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Student Records
While training to be an instructor I read all the notes on the records of the club I was at. I was appalled to find this note written on one record.
This man should not be flying
Because of this, when I became an examiner/CFI I insisted that the student be able to read his/her note at anytime during training and es[pecially at the end of the course.
It was also interesting to note that some instructors allways put the same;
Comments like Exercise covered--OK--Satis--Average--good--ok
My question to you is;
What do you think is appropriate to write on student records based on some of the above and your own experience. Should there be a standard grading. AA- A - BA performance or should there be as I use Very good, good, needs more work?
On taking over a new student what I needed to know was ability and what has been covered EG was the last exercise completed?
I am amazed to find that still on some FI courses filling in student records is not covered at all.
A typical brief entry of mine would be
Ex comp--good--airmanship needs more work--demo 12/13 completed.
This man should not be flying
Because of this, when I became an examiner/CFI I insisted that the student be able to read his/her note at anytime during training and es[pecially at the end of the course.
It was also interesting to note that some instructors allways put the same;
Comments like Exercise covered--OK--Satis--Average--good--ok
My question to you is;
What do you think is appropriate to write on student records based on some of the above and your own experience. Should there be a standard grading. AA- A - BA performance or should there be as I use Very good, good, needs more work?
On taking over a new student what I needed to know was ability and what has been covered EG was the last exercise completed?
I am amazed to find that still on some FI courses filling in student records is not covered at all.
A typical brief entry of mine would be
Ex comp--good--airmanship needs more work--demo 12/13 completed.
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I think you should put:
"Still has trouble maintaining altitude during steep turns, student was briefed on this exercise and showed an understanding - still did not manage to apply."
"Still has trouble maintaining altitude during steep turns, student was briefed on this exercise and showed an understanding - still did not manage to apply."
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"Still has trouble maintaining altitude during steep turns, student was briefed on this exercise and showed an understanding - still did not manage to apply."
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Comments like Exercise covered--OK--Satis--Average--good--ok
I now work at an approved school, so the requirements are different to registered facilities, but I think PPL instructors could probably learn a lot from the student records we keep for CPL and IR students. One A4 page per flight, which includes (as well as the house-keeping stuff like dates, hours, exercise details, etc): what was covered in the briefing, how the student performed in flight (nearly half the page), what the student was de-briefed on, the student's overall performance on the flight, a grade (A, B, C or D), and space for the student to sign to acknowledge he has read his record. And the most important bit: what the student will do next flight.
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I encountered an issue with this. I hope it would not happen again, and have reason to believe that the main problem was with the plaintiff's expert witness, who no longer does such work, and an ill-informed judge.
There was a case that I cannot identify where an instructor was taken to court over a student who had crashed. It turned out that this student had been ... a slow learner, let's say. The plaintiff's expert witness used the student records to win the case. The records had shown that, early in his training, the student had been very poor. These problems had been overcome, and the student was genuinely ready for solo (why he had flown as he did and crashed we will, of course, never know). However the fact that poor performance had previously been recorded was used against the instructor.
Be careful how you write reports.
There was a case that I cannot identify where an instructor was taken to court over a student who had crashed. It turned out that this student had been ... a slow learner, let's say. The plaintiff's expert witness used the student records to win the case. The records had shown that, early in his training, the student had been very poor. These problems had been overcome, and the student was genuinely ready for solo (why he had flown as he did and crashed we will, of course, never know). However the fact that poor performance had previously been recorded was used against the instructor.
Be careful how you write reports.
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What is the purpose of student records? You have to answer that before you can decide what is useful to write on them.
I think their ONLY purpose is as a guide for the next instructor (or the same one if you teach as many students as I did one summer, and your memoriy is as bad as mine
)
That said, what use is good, satis, bad etc, on its own? What does it mean? Does good mean good enough to go on to the nest exercise? The students aren't at school; they don't need a grade. I, as an instructor, need to know what to teach to Bloggs, who I've never seen before.
So you need brief comments...but I don't see how you can standardise them. You need to know what stage was reached, any problems (definitely!), and what should be covered next.
For example (and I need one which covers both f/w and rotary flying)...
Ex 4 - Effects of Controls. Good, but Bloggs looks at instruments too much. OK to go on to Ex 5.
or...
Bloggs seems to have poor coordination and not understand what's required. Take care - tends to freeze on controls! Repeat exercise.
That's a lot more use than "This man shouldn't be flying". And it wouldn't take long.
Anyway, it would help me if it was done that way.
I think their ONLY purpose is as a guide for the next instructor (or the same one if you teach as many students as I did one summer, and your memoriy is as bad as mine
)That said, what use is good, satis, bad etc, on its own? What does it mean? Does good mean good enough to go on to the nest exercise? The students aren't at school; they don't need a grade. I, as an instructor, need to know what to teach to Bloggs, who I've never seen before.
So you need brief comments...but I don't see how you can standardise them. You need to know what stage was reached, any problems (definitely!), and what should be covered next.
For example (and I need one which covers both f/w and rotary flying)...
Ex 4 - Effects of Controls. Good, but Bloggs looks at instruments too much. OK to go on to Ex 5.
or...
Bloggs seems to have poor coordination and not understand what's required. Take care - tends to freeze on controls! Repeat exercise.
That's a lot more use than "This man shouldn't be flying". And it wouldn't take long.
Anyway, it would help me if it was done that way.
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Agreed that an adequate, clearly understood but concise brief (God forbid we ever get to the stage where we have to write reams after each lesson - keep the insurers away from this thread!!) should be written up at the end of the exercise and I attempt to do this on each and every occasion but have to admit sometimes it has to wait until the end of the day. For that reason I have made up a simple form that I use for every flight, on which I write Start Up, Brakes Off, Take Off, Landing, Brakes On, Shut Down times, as well as details of a/c, clearances, student, observations and a/c tech problems. It's not perfect and I'm sure it can be improved on. It's sufficient for me that even if I couldn't write up the student records at the end of the flight I can sit down at the end of the day and catch up then. If anyone wants a copy, drop me a PM with your e-mail address and I'll fire it off asap - feel free to butcher it to your own needs.
Life's A Beech has touched on the fact that student records, without doubt, contain information of a personal sensitive nature, i.e. the student's personal details, and are therefore subject to the requirements of the Data Proctection Act 1998, which gives the student the right to see and take a copy of his/her records at any time, subject to payment of the appropriate fee (£10 maximum at the last count).
There's nothing wrong with making negative comments provided you are able to professionally qualify those comments and we should all be able to do that. However, I would be extremely careful of making comments in a record that could be misconstrued and used against me and/or my employer.
Life's A Beech has touched on the fact that student records, without doubt, contain information of a personal sensitive nature, i.e. the student's personal details, and are therefore subject to the requirements of the Data Proctection Act 1998, which gives the student the right to see and take a copy of his/her records at any time, subject to payment of the appropriate fee (£10 maximum at the last count).
There's nothing wrong with making negative comments provided you are able to professionally qualify those comments and we should all be able to do that. However, I would be extremely careful of making comments in a record that could be misconstrued and used against me and/or my employer.
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That's a lot more use than "This man shouldn't be flying". And it wouldn't take long.
The instructor who left this in the students record was a very arrogant pompous ex RAF bomber pilot who felt he was above everyone else. He was however the best instructor at the airfield/club. He was unfortunately not the CFI. The CFI who was known for being less than responsible and in fact dangerous in my opinion.
The student mentioned above continued flying as he was quite well off and was a very popular club member and possibly one of the nicest people I have ever met in flying but sadly the comments had an important modicum of truth but should have read. This man needs extensive repeat training before solo can be considered.
The outcome of the above is that the CFI sent this man on a solo cross country from Shobdon to O/H Staverton at 16.30 on a winters night when it ws due to be dark at 17.00. I was in the tower at the time he took off and a student pilot said to the CFI, " dont you think it is a bit close to dark to send Fred of all people on a solo cross country now"? He replied " Nah he will be alright".
Fred landed at 1920 non radio at Manchester International Airport. I went to pick the aircraft up and Fred told me that he had been flying in the pitch dark and when he eventually found the cockpit lighting switch he was amazed to find he was at 12,000 feet. At no time during the flight did Fred know where he was and he thought he had landed at Birmingham until he had been arrested. The aircraft ran out of fuel on touchdown but he was subsequently able to restart and taxy clear.
Food for thought Eh?
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Here we have competency based training so performance in various units has to be scored 1 (CPL standard) to 4 (been shown it and can just about do it) plus comments which the student reads and signs as a fair account of the flight.
I remind my instructors that in worst case the records may be used as evidence in a court (as per Life's a Beech's post) should the unthinkable happen. In any case I should be able to pick up the file and get an overall picture of their (and the instructor's) progress.
As for tardy record keeping, with casual instructors I withold wages unless the records are complete, as IMHO the job is not finished until the paperwork is done. They are told this from the start so no excuses.
Am appalled that some instructors come out of training able to do nice landings from the RH seat and draw pretty pictures on a whiteboard, but have no idea of thier legal responsibilities. Some have never even seen the syllabus.
I remind my instructors that in worst case the records may be used as evidence in a court (as per Life's a Beech's post) should the unthinkable happen. In any case I should be able to pick up the file and get an overall picture of their (and the instructor's) progress.
As for tardy record keeping, with casual instructors I withold wages unless the records are complete, as IMHO the job is not finished until the paperwork is done. They are told this from the start so no excuses.
Am appalled that some instructors come out of training able to do nice landings from the RH seat and draw pretty pictures on a whiteboard, but have no idea of thier legal responsibilities. Some have never even seen the syllabus.
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While there is alot of emphasis on instructors attending seminars and renewals, I do wonder how often the CAA inspect PPL flying schools to check that training records are being maintained. The only instance I can ever remember the CAA inspecting training records was following a fatality of a PPL student on a solo flight.
In terms of the training records I have always had the policy of a 'need to know basis' in terms of access. This is similar to medical records. You should share the information with the student as well as other instructors.
In terms of the training records I have always had the policy of a 'need to know basis' in terms of access. This is similar to medical records. You should share the information with the student as well as other instructors.
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I always write up the flight as part of the student de-brief, this way the student knows exactly what his failings & his progress is.
I can't see any reason to keep the records from the student , it can only be counter-productive.
I have seen all sorts of write-ups some said more about the instructor than the student!
I can't see any reason to keep the records from the student , it can only be counter-productive.
I have seen all sorts of write-ups some said more about the instructor than the student!
What is the purpose of student records?
I think their ONLY purpose is as a guide for the next instructor
The only instance I can ever remember the CAA inspecting training records was following a fatality of a PPL student on a solo flight.
If so, how long do you keep them for?
What should be recorded in them?
Who might want to see them and why?
One thing is certain, if the records are to have any meaning, they should follow a standardised format; with instructors reporting relative to established datums. Some instruction is needed on how to do this, not only at FIC level, but also within the organisation where the instruction takes place.
An FTO is required to document such activities in its manuals but, there is no formal requirement for RFs to do so however, under EASA it may well be different.
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The difference between a school and a good school is a good school dosnt need legislation to make it a better school.
The CAA investigated the records of Fred's flight to Manchester and the club lost its CAA approval and very soon after the CFI lost his job
The only instance I can ever remember the CAA inspecting training records was following a fatality of a PPL student on a solo flight.
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While training to be an instructor I read all the notes on the records of the club I was at.
Thin ice if you ask me.
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Thin ice if you ask me.
You may also be interested to know that the student, the instructor and the CFI have long since gone to the great hangar in the sky.
Jumping to conclusions can also put you on thin ice.
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I didn't jump to conclusions, I merely asked a few questions.
Good, means you thought about it and covered yourself.
'airmanship needs more work'
What does that mean? Just as vague as saying 'average'.
A statement to that effect is contained in the pilots order book and signed for by all students.
A typical brief entry of mine would be
Ex comp--good--airmanship needs more work--demo 12/13 completed.
Ex comp--good--airmanship needs more work--demo 12/13 completed.
What does that mean? Just as vague as saying 'average'.
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Although our competency based syllabus was cumbersome when it first came into effect, it does a lot to inform the student what is expected of them, remove variations in asessment by different instructors, protect the instructor's ass and provide measurable outcomes (provided of course the instructor bothers to fill it in).
Evidence used to measure that the student has reached the required competency in each unit are documented in the syllabus. The student signs before each major landmark (first solo, first area solo, PPL, CPL) that they have completed the training specified in the elements which are certified on the achievement record when they ahve been achieved consistantly.
I'm surprised that this idea is not adopted more widely. I know I had a similar syllabus when I did my UK AFI course years ago.
Details here http://www.casa.gov.au/fcl/vfrday.htm
Evidence used to measure that the student has reached the required competency in each unit are documented in the syllabus. The student signs before each major landmark (first solo, first area solo, PPL, CPL) that they have completed the training specified in the elements which are certified on the achievement record when they ahve been achieved consistantly.
I'm surprised that this idea is not adopted more widely. I know I had a similar syllabus when I did my UK AFI course years ago.
Details here http://www.casa.gov.au/fcl/vfrday.htm
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The students aren't at school; they don't need a grade
Grades ABCD work best for me. However, it is important to not only provide the grading system but to also provide the standard at each point of grading.
This is most easily done by not simply putting;
6.2.1 Straight and Level at Various Power Settings - A B C D
and putting;
6.2.1 Can maintain height +/- 100ft and direction +/- 20 degrees wings level while accelerating and decelerating between 70 and 110 Kt. - A B C D
C grades should have explanation. D grades must have explanation.
A raft of C and D grades makes it easy for both CFI and Student to see that flying is probably not for the student.
Unfortunately, mnay PPL students are graded for the first time when they complete the GST.
The next instructor should not have to be told what follows on from an exercise completed to the required standard........I hope that everyone knows what's after 6.1 and 6.2.
Please don't say 7 and 8!
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Ladies and gents,
Just reading this thread, I am interested to know if any of you instructor types have ever actually gotten to the point where you have advised a student that they should give up learning to fly.
I am still a PPL student, but I have taught people in other disciplines (software development specifically) and I have, once or twice, come across student who (to steal from Rowan Atkinson) "wouldn't get it, if it came in a large bag marked 'IT'". They are not stupid, but software requires a certain style of thought that does not come easily to most people and does not come at all to some. I would imagine that flying is the same.
As for me, my notes, and my instructor. I have noticed that he keeps detailed notes on my progress which are updated after each lesson. He has made it very clear that I am free to read them at any time, and usually goes through them with me if there are any negative points.
llanfairpg, I couldn't help but laugh at Fred's story there. I guess I shouldn't but what an extraordinary situation. To be 'that' far out of control to 'find yourself' at 12'000 feet. My god!
Just reading this thread, I am interested to know if any of you instructor types have ever actually gotten to the point where you have advised a student that they should give up learning to fly.
I am still a PPL student, but I have taught people in other disciplines (software development specifically) and I have, once or twice, come across student who (to steal from Rowan Atkinson) "wouldn't get it, if it came in a large bag marked 'IT'". They are not stupid, but software requires a certain style of thought that does not come easily to most people and does not come at all to some. I would imagine that flying is the same.
As for me, my notes, and my instructor. I have noticed that he keeps detailed notes on my progress which are updated after each lesson. He has made it very clear that I am free to read them at any time, and usually goes through them with me if there are any negative points.
llanfairpg, I couldn't help but laugh at Fred's story there. I guess I shouldn't but what an extraordinary situation. To be 'that' far out of control to 'find yourself' at 12'000 feet. My god!
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Yes I could write a book about Fred's Story(in fact i am!)
This man should not be flying would be a good tiltle.
What this arrogant instructor should have written in was
This man shouldnt not be flying even though he was a war time devlopment engineer with Rolls Royce and is said to have crashed in more types than most people have flown. This man should not be flying because he is the most popular club member and actively supports the club. This man should not be flying because he loves flying and always has done since childhood. This man should not be flying because he will eventually sink all of his life savings into the reopening of Wellesbourne and loose all of his money, including his house, causing him to have a heart attack and die.
RIP FRED SMITH, THIS MAN DID FLY
This man should not be flying would be a good tiltle.
What this arrogant instructor should have written in was
This man shouldnt not be flying even though he was a war time devlopment engineer with Rolls Royce and is said to have crashed in more types than most people have flown. This man should not be flying because he is the most popular club member and actively supports the club. This man should not be flying because he loves flying and always has done since childhood. This man should not be flying because he will eventually sink all of his life savings into the reopening of Wellesbourne and loose all of his money, including his house, causing him to have a heart attack and die.
RIP FRED SMITH, THIS MAN DID FLY