Student Records
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GRADES
All though I agree with grading I do not believe telling a man he is below average is good practice, it provides little incentive and is also bad business.
Much better to put, needs more practice.
Its not for any instructor to say This man should not be flying. Its upto an instructor to say, "this man should not fly solo".
Any fool can be a commentator but it takes vocation and skill to teach.
All though I agree with grading I do not believe telling a man he is below average is good practice, it provides little incentive and is also bad business.
Much better to put, needs more practice.
Its not for any instructor to say This man should not be flying. Its upto an instructor to say, "this man should not fly solo".
Any fool can be a commentator but it takes vocation and skill to teach.
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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To give a balance, what of those instructors who aim for a complete novel when appraising basic air exercises such as turning? Self indulgent waffle is at best a nuisance to myself as the following instructor and at worse totally blows the students mind at the debrief stage (but that's another story).
"Airmanship needs more work" is self explanatory as the airmanship aspects for the JAR PPL syllabus are detailed for each individual lesson. Simply look up what air exercise was covered and the airmanship aspect to which the instructor relates should be clear. Filling out student notes with unnecessary circumlocution is something which should be addressed at the FIC stage.
Personally, if I see things like: "...exercise 9 covered well..." in a students record, I feel content to move onto the next air exercise. Why would I want a complete match run down when all I am concerned with is whether the student is ready to move onto the next stage of the course? It will soon become evident how well the student can turn the aeroplane when we get airbourne.
There is no inclination on my part to question the previous instructors assessment if they deemed the exercise complete at the close of their last session, ergo the minutiae is superfluous to any future requirement surely? Padding out student records to clear yourself of any negligence would seem diligent should the AAIB ever need to trawl through them, but even so, a concise note detailing that an exercise was completed satisfactorily would hold you in better stead than a ton of waffle methinks!
Sadly there are some instructors around who are not confident enough in their own abilities as an instructor that they have to carte blanche in a student record just to show that they were indeed awake for that particular lesson. It is this type of instructor for which I have a certain dislike as they often hide their inadequacies behind pomposity. Food for thought?
Just a balance.
VFE.
"Airmanship needs more work" is self explanatory as the airmanship aspects for the JAR PPL syllabus are detailed for each individual lesson. Simply look up what air exercise was covered and the airmanship aspect to which the instructor relates should be clear. Filling out student notes with unnecessary circumlocution is something which should be addressed at the FIC stage.
Personally, if I see things like: "...exercise 9 covered well..." in a students record, I feel content to move onto the next air exercise. Why would I want a complete match run down when all I am concerned with is whether the student is ready to move onto the next stage of the course? It will soon become evident how well the student can turn the aeroplane when we get airbourne.
There is no inclination on my part to question the previous instructors assessment if they deemed the exercise complete at the close of their last session, ergo the minutiae is superfluous to any future requirement surely? Padding out student records to clear yourself of any negligence would seem diligent should the AAIB ever need to trawl through them, but even so, a concise note detailing that an exercise was completed satisfactorily would hold you in better stead than a ton of waffle methinks!
Sadly there are some instructors around who are not confident enough in their own abilities as an instructor that they have to carte blanche in a student record just to show that they were indeed awake for that particular lesson. It is this type of instructor for which I have a certain dislike as they often hide their inadequacies behind pomposity. Food for thought?
Just a balance.
VFE.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Digital.poet,
In the world of PPL training, no.
People (on the whole) train towards the PPL for a hobby.
I had one particular student, a really lovely 80-year-old bloke. Couldn't fly to save his life. About 15 hours in, he was just starting to get the hang of climbing and descending. It was clear to everyone, him included, that he was never going to solo, let alone get his PPL.
One foggy day, I was chatting to him in the clubhouse. He told me: "I know I'm not a natural pilot, and it's going to be a very long time before I go solo, but I spend my life looking after my sick wife. The highlight of my week is coming for my flying lessons."
As far as I'm concerned, as long as a student understands the progress (or lack of progress) that he's making, and he's enjoying what he's doing, I'm happy to teach him.
For commercial students, though, who are spending money in the hope (or expectation) that they are going to get a job at the end of it, it's a different matter, and one which I have discussed on the odd occassion with my CFI but do not entirely agree with him on. But regardless of differences of opinion, one thing the CFI and I do agree on is that the student must be made aware if they are well below average.
FFF
----------------
Just reading this thread, I am interested to know if any of you instructor types have ever actually gotten to the point where you have advised a student that they should give up learning to fly
People (on the whole) train towards the PPL for a hobby.
I had one particular student, a really lovely 80-year-old bloke. Couldn't fly to save his life. About 15 hours in, he was just starting to get the hang of climbing and descending. It was clear to everyone, him included, that he was never going to solo, let alone get his PPL.
One foggy day, I was chatting to him in the clubhouse. He told me: "I know I'm not a natural pilot, and it's going to be a very long time before I go solo, but I spend my life looking after my sick wife. The highlight of my week is coming for my flying lessons."
As far as I'm concerned, as long as a student understands the progress (or lack of progress) that he's making, and he's enjoying what he's doing, I'm happy to teach him.
For commercial students, though, who are spending money in the hope (or expectation) that they are going to get a job at the end of it, it's a different matter, and one which I have discussed on the odd occassion with my CFI but do not entirely agree with him on. But regardless of differences of opinion, one thing the CFI and I do agree on is that the student must be made aware if they are well below average.
FFF
----------------
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Thats why you need to sit down with a customer (a new word for some schools) and find out what they actually want to achieve from a course of flying lessons and the answer should form part of the students record.
Hands up how many schools/clubs do that?
Always remember EMI said The Beatles would never be a sucess
Hands up how many schools/clubs do that?
Always remember EMI said The Beatles would never be a sucess
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Yes, student records are a requirement, and are required to be kept for IIRC, six years. We keep ours at least ten years. They are also considered 'confidential' and are never left lying around or allowed to be seen by all & sundry.
Student records are an integral part of the relationship between the instructors and the student, in addition to ensuring that the syllabus is taught in a time & cost effective way. The minimum that the records should contain IMHO is (quote from SOP's)
"Just one or two words are not acceptable. The comments should include details of whether the exercise is completed, any areas of weakness, any areas that need revision, and also what the student has been advised to read up on for the next sortie. Also anything else relevant to the students progress, such as significant ground school, taxi practice, refuelling and Check A instruction is also required to be recorded. Once the bottom of the page is reached, the student must sign and date the form, as having been made aware of the comments made."
By signing the records, a student can never claim that you didn't tell him/her about areas of weakness or strengths. Also it is an opportune time to ratify the hours in the records against the hours in the students logbook, thereby catching errors early in the training, and not just before test.
Hopefully, this 2-way flow will give a student a greater insight into his progress and allow them to raise any concerns they may have.
Just my 1d worth.
XO
Student records are an integral part of the relationship between the instructors and the student, in addition to ensuring that the syllabus is taught in a time & cost effective way. The minimum that the records should contain IMHO is (quote from SOP's)
"Just one or two words are not acceptable. The comments should include details of whether the exercise is completed, any areas of weakness, any areas that need revision, and also what the student has been advised to read up on for the next sortie. Also anything else relevant to the students progress, such as significant ground school, taxi practice, refuelling and Check A instruction is also required to be recorded. Once the bottom of the page is reached, the student must sign and date the form, as having been made aware of the comments made."
By signing the records, a student can never claim that you didn't tell him/her about areas of weakness or strengths. Also it is an opportune time to ratify the hours in the records against the hours in the students logbook, thereby catching errors early in the training, and not just before test.
Hopefully, this 2-way flow will give a student a greater insight into his progress and allow them to raise any concerns they may have.
Just my 1d worth.
XO
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What is written in student records should be treated by another instructor reading it as guidance only as to the student's ability and progress, since all sorts of factors may affect a student's performance, especially their relationship with the instructor.
When I learned to fly, I had an instructor who shouted at me all the time, so that I became more and more anxious about my apparent lack of ability and I completely froze on the controls. He wrote in my record "this woman will never learn to fly!"
I would like to see his face now if he knew that I am an FIC and FIE (fixed wing) and also teach people on helicopters....
When I learned to fly, I had an instructor who shouted at me all the time, so that I became more and more anxious about my apparent lack of ability and I completely froze on the controls. He wrote in my record "this woman will never learn to fly!"
I would like to see his face now if he knew that I am an FIC and FIE (fixed wing) and also teach people on helicopters....
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lady in red,
That's one very good reason for sticking only to the facts in student records, not opinions.
Your instructor could have written, "This student appears anxious, freezes on the controls, and so far is making little progress". It would have been quite accurate, and possibly useful to another instructor who would then know there were problems to be overcome.
"This woman will never learn to fly" would tell someone nothing useful about you, but a great deal about your previous instructor.
That's one very good reason for sticking only to the facts in student records, not opinions.
Your instructor could have written, "This student appears anxious, freezes on the controls, and so far is making little progress". It would have been quite accurate, and possibly useful to another instructor who would then know there were problems to be overcome.
"This woman will never learn to fly" would tell someone nothing useful about you, but a great deal about your previous instructor.
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When I did a South African flight test I was horrified by the grading system...1 to 10 for every single element of the flight...from A check to crosswind landing to shutdown and securing of the plane...everything!
I noticed afterwards that the instructor had in fact just marked 6/10 for almost everything...so perhaps he wasn't paying much attention to the flight...or I'm a pretty average pilot. A completely different way to doing things to the 'tick in the box' for my JAA PPL skills test...it would be interesting to look back on a career of flying with each element of each flight test you ever did marked out of 10.
The flying school also had an internal grading of 1 to 5 for each flight done with an instructor...covering elements like 'procedures' and 'CRM & airmanship'...again very different from the approach I was used to in the UK.
I noticed afterwards that the instructor had in fact just marked 6/10 for almost everything...so perhaps he wasn't paying much attention to the flight...or I'm a pretty average pilot. A completely different way to doing things to the 'tick in the box' for my JAA PPL skills test...it would be interesting to look back on a career of flying with each element of each flight test you ever did marked out of 10.
The flying school also had an internal grading of 1 to 5 for each flight done with an instructor...covering elements like 'procedures' and 'CRM & airmanship'...again very different from the approach I was used to in the UK.
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What exactly is the use of a grading system in the case of a private pilot?
He/she is not trying to compete with others to get to a university, or prove to some future employer how good he is.
He/she does not need to have a series a 'straight As' in order to get a PPL
He/she is not trying to win prizes.
They're simply trying to learn to fly, in order to have fun! For anyone going on to a CPL/ATPL - well, then maybe you need a grading system, maybe not, later on.
So all student records need to do is record the facts, for the benefit of a future instructor or anyone else who needs them. The facts. Grades and comments such as 'this man/woman will never learn to fly" are opinions. Do we need the opinions of opinionated flying instructors?
A desire for grades is nothing more than a symptom of this country's mania for grading and marking everything and everybody, to no useful purpose.
He/she is not trying to compete with others to get to a university, or prove to some future employer how good he is.
He/she does not need to have a series a 'straight As' in order to get a PPL
He/she is not trying to win prizes.
They're simply trying to learn to fly, in order to have fun! For anyone going on to a CPL/ATPL - well, then maybe you need a grading system, maybe not, later on.
So all student records need to do is record the facts, for the benefit of a future instructor or anyone else who needs them. The facts. Grades and comments such as 'this man/woman will never learn to fly" are opinions. Do we need the opinions of opinionated flying instructors?
A desire for grades is nothing more than a symptom of this country's mania for grading and marking everything and everybody, to no useful purpose.
"It would be easier to teach a pig to ride a bicycle than to teach this student to taxy an aeroplane"
"When this student says he has control, he lies!"
"When this student came to us to learn to fly, a village was deprived of an idiot"
"This student sets himself minimal standards. To which he rarely rises."
"Rarely have I experienced quite so many corners of the flight envelope as this student managed to find in what he alleged to be straight and level flight"
"When this student says he has control, he lies!"
"When this student came to us to learn to fly, a village was deprived of an idiot"
"This student sets himself minimal standards. To which he rarely rises."
"Rarely have I experienced quite so many corners of the flight envelope as this student managed to find in what he alleged to be straight and level flight"
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Whirley everyone naturaly grades everyone and everything. Do you not say so and so is a good driver or the Indian restaurant is good/bad or indifferent.
The first thing an instructor wants to know on taking a student over is, is he/she any good. what student records do is provide that answer.
Grades 1 -10 never work because they allow too much ambiguity. you just need above average, average or needs more practice (in my opinion.)
Something I remember from the RAF which always made me laugh was
May well achieve the standard after considerable practice
The first thing an instructor wants to know on taking a student over is, is he/she any good. what student records do is provide that answer.
Grades 1 -10 never work because they allow too much ambiguity. you just need above average, average or needs more practice (in my opinion.)
Something I remember from the RAF which always made me laugh was
May well achieve the standard after considerable practice
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Some schools and individuals within schools simply lurve the chance to sign, initial, date and act official over the simplest of things don't they? The slightest opportunity to chuck a bit of authoritative ink about on paper is greeted with open arms by some Captain Mainwaring types sadly knocking around the game. Big boys playing pilots syndrome masquarading under flimsy self-deluding titles like 'SOP's - I almost spat me dinner out after reading Ex Oggies details of 'sorties', dates, student signatures and so forth! I mean - 'SOPS' at a PPL school? Who are we kiddin' here?? 
What ever happened to K.I.S.S?!?!
Priceless!
VFE.
What ever happened to K.I.S.S?!?!
"Rarely have I experienced quite so many corners of the flight envelope as this student managed to find in what he alleged to be straight and level flight"
VFE.
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Whirly,
Why do you link grading with competition?
He/she does have to demonstrate the required standard in order to be put forward for the test and again during the test in order to get a licence.
Grading simply is that - a clear comarison between the standard demonstrated and the standard required.
Perhaps what you really what to say is that there should only be two grades - meets the standard / doesn't meet the standard. However, it is hard to show progress in that case while still not quite demonstrating the required standard.
I doubt if many here has seen a properly developed flying course that has every element broken down into simple objective elements.
As an example -
Top up the oil;
a) Correctly determines the oil level
b) Knows the maximum and minimum quantity required
c) Selcets the correct grade of oil for the conditions
d) Adds the required amount and secures the cap
e) Makes appropriate entry oin tech log
Lots of clear elements that make up just the simple topping up of the oil. grade the new guy and they will score mostly Cs and Ds but once shown the task, there should be only As and Bs...........unless they forget then a C highlights the requirement for some refresher.
Just an example.
Grades are used in the PPL written tests. They demonstrate that the required standard has been met.
Regards,
DFC
Why do you link grading with competition?
He/she does not need to have a series a 'straight As' in order to get a PPL
Grading simply is that - a clear comarison between the standard demonstrated and the standard required.
Perhaps what you really what to say is that there should only be two grades - meets the standard / doesn't meet the standard. However, it is hard to show progress in that case while still not quite demonstrating the required standard.
I doubt if many here has seen a properly developed flying course that has every element broken down into simple objective elements.
As an example -
Top up the oil;
a) Correctly determines the oil level
b) Knows the maximum and minimum quantity required
c) Selcets the correct grade of oil for the conditions
d) Adds the required amount and secures the cap
e) Makes appropriate entry oin tech log
Lots of clear elements that make up just the simple topping up of the oil. grade the new guy and they will score mostly Cs and Ds but once shown the task, there should be only As and Bs...........unless they forget then a C highlights the requirement for some refresher.
Just an example.
Grades are used in the PPL written tests. They demonstrate that the required standard has been met.
Regards,
DFC
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VFE,
SOPs are used in almost every organisation. They may not be called SOPs but they are.
An example of an every day SOP is the time you are required to turn up for work and how many days holiday you get and what time lunch is and so on.............all SOPs.
SOPs are required to keep things standard. Very confusing for students when in the absence of SOPs everyone does their own thing.
Usually ends up with the student trying to operate in different ways with different instructors.
Individual pilots operating outside any organisation should have their own SOPs because it makes it easier to make critical decisions under pressure.
Having to come up with a procedure or minimum and at the same time establish if the flight can proceed under pressure from friends can often result in the procedure being less safe than what one would write down in the comfort and relaxing atmosphere of one's home.
Regards,
DFC
SOPs are used in almost every organisation. They may not be called SOPs but they are.
An example of an every day SOP is the time you are required to turn up for work and how many days holiday you get and what time lunch is and so on.............all SOPs.
SOPs are required to keep things standard. Very confusing for students when in the absence of SOPs everyone does their own thing.
Usually ends up with the student trying to operate in different ways with different instructors.
Individual pilots operating outside any organisation should have their own SOPs because it makes it easier to make critical decisions under pressure.
Having to come up with a procedure or minimum and at the same time establish if the flight can proceed under pressure from friends can often result in the procedure being less safe than what one would write down in the comfort and relaxing atmosphere of one's home.
Regards,
DFC
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The day when I have to start ticking a thousand boxes just to show the student knows how to piss in the toilet without splattering the seat is the day I throw the towel in DFC. When the weight of the paper equals the weight of the aircraft can we go flying?
How to make a sows ear from a silk purse.
VFE.
How to make a sows ear from a silk purse.
VFE.
Won't that make the towel rather wet?
When HMFC first discovered computers, someone thought that, instead of narrative reports, a new system of tick sheets could be used, with scores from 1 to 9 for every item of the flight.
Our CFI refused to have anything to do with them. "What the hell is 'above average' taxying?", he asked. So firmly were these silly tick sheets opposed that we were allowed to have our own, simple version of recording the elements of a trip at the beginning of the folder (so it was easy to see at a glance when, for example, he/she last flew a steep turn or a flapless approach or whatever) - backed up by narrative comment.
Some months later, all the others who'd suffered these silly tick sheets threw them away and adopted our system.
We were required to comment 3 times a year on our students' overall progress, attitude and technique. One of my little buggers hadn't ever turned up, so all I wrote was "Who?". The CFI said that wasn't enough, I had to write more......
Acting Pilot Officer Bloggs:
Progress - Bloggs has not attended for flying once this term, so has made no progress.
Atttiude - Since I have never met Bloggs, I am unable to comment beyond stating that he obviously isn't terribly keen.
Technique - Unable to assess or comment.
"Hmm", said the CFI, "I see what you mean. Time to chop the little bugger!"
When HMFC first discovered computers, someone thought that, instead of narrative reports, a new system of tick sheets could be used, with scores from 1 to 9 for every item of the flight.
Our CFI refused to have anything to do with them. "What the hell is 'above average' taxying?", he asked. So firmly were these silly tick sheets opposed that we were allowed to have our own, simple version of recording the elements of a trip at the beginning of the folder (so it was easy to see at a glance when, for example, he/she last flew a steep turn or a flapless approach or whatever) - backed up by narrative comment.
Some months later, all the others who'd suffered these silly tick sheets threw them away and adopted our system.
We were required to comment 3 times a year on our students' overall progress, attitude and technique. One of my little buggers hadn't ever turned up, so all I wrote was "Who?". The CFI said that wasn't enough, I had to write more......
Acting Pilot Officer Bloggs:
Progress - Bloggs has not attended for flying once this term, so has made no progress.
Atttiude - Since I have never met Bloggs, I am unable to comment beyond stating that he obviously isn't terribly keen.
Technique - Unable to assess or comment.
"Hmm", said the CFI, "I see what you mean. Time to chop the little bugger!"
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VFE,
I can fit the entire PPL sylabus on 1.5 pages of A4 with room for expanded comments and signatures as well as times etc.
How much does 1 sheet of A4 weigh?
Comments are only required if D is given.
You can draw a line from top to bottom of the B column and sign the page. The next person can see the pilot is ready for test.
It also helps the new instructor understand that 6A and 6B are not lessons despite what their incorrect FIC handout or AOPA sylabus tells them.
6.1 and 6.2 are and 6.3 follows 6.2 and not 7 and 8.
Regards,
DFC
I can fit the entire PPL sylabus on 1.5 pages of A4 with room for expanded comments and signatures as well as times etc.
How much does 1 sheet of A4 weigh?
Comments are only required if D is given.
You can draw a line from top to bottom of the B column and sign the page. The next person can see the pilot is ready for test.
It also helps the new instructor understand that 6A and 6B are not lessons despite what their incorrect FIC handout or AOPA sylabus tells them.
6.1 and 6.2 are and 6.3 follows 6.2 and not 7 and 8.
Regards,
DFC
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Having worked at a number of schools and not once been presented with anything remotely resembling company SOPs*, either written or verbal, one feels slightly pleased that the job is as yet largely free from the usual bureacracy endemic within many workplaces these days. It is one of the few positive things still going for this particular flying job that an instructor is permitted their own quality time with a student to acheive the 'objective' in a manner he/she deems fit. That is why we have a universally agreed assessment in the form of a skills test.
Airline language such as SOP's seems to be creaping into the world of the PPL more and more. A large part of it is down to the fact the instructors wish they were flying heavy metal instead of spamcans which is very sad indeed. Probably the same instructors who fly airliner style circuits, prefer teaching VOR tracking over real VFR navigation, sit polishing their shoes in between lessons ready for their next airline interview and spend the rest of their time thinking up increasing ways to overcomplicate something that's really quite simple.
When will people learn: if it ain't broke, don't fix it?
VFE.
*I have however read a few FOBs.
Airline language such as SOP's seems to be creaping into the world of the PPL more and more. A large part of it is down to the fact the instructors wish they were flying heavy metal instead of spamcans which is very sad indeed. Probably the same instructors who fly airliner style circuits, prefer teaching VOR tracking over real VFR navigation, sit polishing their shoes in between lessons ready for their next airline interview and spend the rest of their time thinking up increasing ways to overcomplicate something that's really quite simple.
When will people learn: if it ain't broke, don't fix it?
VFE.
*I have however read a few FOBs.
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Have we improved
VFE
I have read the above posts, some made me smile and some made me remember the arguments we had, on the same subject,50 years ago.
Have we really improved?
Tmb
I have read the above posts, some made me smile and some made me remember the arguments we had, on the same subject,50 years ago.
Have we really improved?
Tmb