PFLs before first solo?
Whopity:
Yes, but once upon a time most airfields were also largish areas with many possible landing directions and few obstructions outside the boundary. Many airfields now have a single runway, may not be wide enough for a stude to land across and may have buildings near the boundary.
I fully support the need for tighter circuits but don't agree that it is always appropriate or possible to try to reach the airfield from anywhere in the circuit. The most important thing is to achieve a safe speed and to arrive in a controlled way on a relatively flat surface - and preferably into wind.
HFD
Once upon a time the idea was that you could glide back onto the airfield from any point in the circuit; it is not a bad principal to adhere to now. If you can't reach the airfield your circuit is too big!
I fully support the need for tighter circuits but don't agree that it is always appropriate or possible to try to reach the airfield from anywhere in the circuit. The most important thing is to achieve a safe speed and to arrive in a controlled way on a relatively flat surface - and preferably into wind.
HFD
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PFL - Vital Actions
I introduce PFLS before letting my students go solo and then do two/three glide approaches from various parts of the circuit to various parts of the airfield. To my mind this achieves the following:
- Vital actions are carried out eg. fuel pump on, change carb heat setting, change tank all of which can be achieved easily by the average student whilst pitching for best glide speed - All of these may resolve the problem
- Breaks the link that I must land on the specified runway rather than the largest clear space I can reach.
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So you guys are sending students solo without briefing them on where they are to go in the event of the runway becoming blocked/airfield closed?
My Deputy CFI once had a student on second solo have to divert because the runway was closed. Three times this year I have seen the runway at my airfield closed for over an hour due to various incidents.
All our students are to briefed on a suitable diversion in the event of the above happening. They are to carry a copy of the airfield plate for the diversion airfield from either the VFR flight guide/Pooley's and the Instructor is to make sure the VOR that is located "on aerodrome" at the diversion airfield we use is tuned and the OBS set to the radial inbound the links the two airfields.
My airfield handles everything from 150's to 757's. Occasionally one has to orbit or extend downwind. It makes sense to ensure students are familiar with doing so and what to do if they feel unhappy about doing it.
I will apologise to my students who have reached the solo stage and who are familiar with what to do if they have to divert and have an engine failure. It was unnecessary for me to have taught them what to do.
My Deputy CFI once had a student on second solo have to divert because the runway was closed. Three times this year I have seen the runway at my airfield closed for over an hour due to various incidents.
All our students are to briefed on a suitable diversion in the event of the above happening. They are to carry a copy of the airfield plate for the diversion airfield from either the VFR flight guide/Pooley's and the Instructor is to make sure the VOR that is located "on aerodrome" at the diversion airfield we use is tuned and the OBS set to the radial inbound the links the two airfields.
My airfield handles everything from 150's to 757's. Occasionally one has to orbit or extend downwind. It makes sense to ensure students are familiar with doing so and what to do if they feel unhappy about doing it.
I will apologise to my students who have reached the solo stage and who are familiar with what to do if they have to divert and have an engine failure. It was unnecessary for me to have taught them what to do.
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What next
Well, what seems to challenged is the syllabus itself. Where does the line get drawn?
What element of the syllabus should be included before solo and what left to later. Setting VORs to a QDM is one thing but tracking a radial while remaining spacially aware is another, how much then of ex18 is covered. The outside world can be a strange and unnerving place for a low hour student and i'm not convinced by timzsta and Rickford. How, as whopity has referred, can a student who has not been taught, fully, glide approaches as a technique undertake a forced landing off field with all the other factors to be considered, also.
Should a student be forced to divert when at the circuit solo stage then I would suggest that D&D on 121.50 for their expert assistance would be the safer bet.
What element of the syllabus should be included before solo and what left to later. Setting VORs to a QDM is one thing but tracking a radial while remaining spacially aware is another, how much then of ex18 is covered. The outside world can be a strange and unnerving place for a low hour student and i'm not convinced by timzsta and Rickford. How, as whopity has referred, can a student who has not been taught, fully, glide approaches as a technique undertake a forced landing off field with all the other factors to be considered, also.
Should a student be forced to divert when at the circuit solo stage then I would suggest that D&D on 121.50 for their expert assistance would be the safer bet.
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What are we actually teaching, when we break it down, in a PFL?
We are teaching taking the aircraft from the cruise to a glide descent. We should have already taught this in exercercise 8.1. The PFL will require some descending gliding turns. See exercise 9
The choice of field - this is basically an airmanship issue. The more airmanship skills the student has before first solo the better in my opinion.
Finally we are teaching some checks - they same ones the student should be doing when we teach glide in the circuit. We want to first ascertain why the engine has stopped in the hope we can restart it. If we cant achieve the aforementioned then we need to secure the engine and prepare for forced landing - ie fuel off/master off/unlatch doors etc.
I can't see why any of that is bad stuff for a student to have learnt prior to first solo.
As I said earlier I tell my students if you have to divert in the process of carrying out solo circuits do it under a pan. My airfield is radar equipped and so is the airfield they will go to. The will get all they help they need from ATC to get from one to the other.
We are teaching taking the aircraft from the cruise to a glide descent. We should have already taught this in exercercise 8.1. The PFL will require some descending gliding turns. See exercise 9
The choice of field - this is basically an airmanship issue. The more airmanship skills the student has before first solo the better in my opinion.
Finally we are teaching some checks - they same ones the student should be doing when we teach glide in the circuit. We want to first ascertain why the engine has stopped in the hope we can restart it. If we cant achieve the aforementioned then we need to secure the engine and prepare for forced landing - ie fuel off/master off/unlatch doors etc.
I can't see why any of that is bad stuff for a student to have learnt prior to first solo.
As I said earlier I tell my students if you have to divert in the process of carrying out solo circuits do it under a pan. My airfield is radar equipped and so is the airfield they will go to. The will get all they help they need from ATC to get from one to the other.
Last edited by timzsta; 22nd Aug 2007 at 20:23.
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BEagle mentioned how the confidence gained from a first solo when weighed up against the possibility of an off-field precautionary landing actually occuring during first solo is a non-brainer. If you take your thinking to the logical conclusion Timzsta, you could very well teach the whole syllabus before the student ever flies the aircraft alone.
I know not of a student carrying out a forced landing away from the airfield during first solo (no doubt someone will point to one occasion tho!) although I have met one who had EFATO and executed a landing in a feild ahead which he walked away from. It is admirable that you've taken the forethought to think of a possible ugly scenario Timzsta but there comes a point where you have to let them go solo for the sake of continued progress and confidence. Those with much more experience than ourselves dictate that this happens at Ex.14, not at Ex.17.
Granted, I have taken a struggling student away from the circuit for some PFL training (under instruction from his regular instructor - not my own decision) and feel strongly that he gained no advantage either when introduced back to circuit work nor in the unlikely event that he had to carry out one during his first solo.
Until I gain much more experience in this game I intend to stick to the book as much as possible when implimenting the training - as a friend I would recommend you do too mate but it's your call at the end of the day.
VFE.
I know not of a student carrying out a forced landing away from the airfield during first solo (no doubt someone will point to one occasion tho!) although I have met one who had EFATO and executed a landing in a feild ahead which he walked away from. It is admirable that you've taken the forethought to think of a possible ugly scenario Timzsta but there comes a point where you have to let them go solo for the sake of continued progress and confidence. Those with much more experience than ourselves dictate that this happens at Ex.14, not at Ex.17.
Granted, I have taken a struggling student away from the circuit for some PFL training (under instruction from his regular instructor - not my own decision) and feel strongly that he gained no advantage either when introduced back to circuit work nor in the unlikely event that he had to carry out one during his first solo.
Until I gain much more experience in this game I intend to stick to the book as much as possible when implimenting the training - as a friend I would recommend you do too mate but it's your call at the end of the day.
VFE.
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I teach PFL's before first solo. That's it. I don't teach exercise 15,18B,19 etc.
And I make sure the student has some idea as to what to do if things start to go wrong at the airfield. And being a "mixed traffic environment" airfield they do more then occasionally in my limited experience. So far this year I have witnessed the runway blocked for at least an hour by a 757, a King Air and a 152. And all on days that were "soloable".
And I make sure the student has some idea as to what to do if things start to go wrong at the airfield. And being a "mixed traffic environment" airfield they do more then occasionally in my limited experience. So far this year I have witnessed the runway blocked for at least an hour by a 757, a King Air and a 152. And all on days that were "soloable".
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BEagle wrote (a couple of days ago, regarding my microlighting input):
"Well, perhaps if you are talking about flying machines with such unreliable engines, then you might have a point."
Accepted as regards the two-stroke days, which was when our syllabus was drawn up. But now we have the ubiquitous Rotax 912 - designed as a certified engine - it does beg the question that this thread is based on: Why have two different approaches to training and PFLs. The syllabus for micros is on the NPPL web site.
"I'm not quite sure how a student can be permitted to fly his own aeroplane without holding a licence...?"
Quite simple. You buy the aircraft, you employ the instructor. In the light aircraft world, there might be questions as to whether it is on a private C of A or a Public C of A - or indeed in the PFA permit world whether of not it is soley owned - if money is changing hands for instruction. But if you are solo, you are in the aircraft yourself and as long as you meet the regs for that flying machine, you can do it. The problem in this case gives scope for another thread: the instructors had told (not advised) the student not to buy the aircraft and that they would not fly in it. Student insisted on buying. Student then wanted to do some of his solo hours in own aircraft (very common in microlighting since it used to be completely illegal to hire aircraft, so to continue flying after licence issue then microlight had to be purchased). Instructors thought: well, he is going to have to fly it sometime. Decided to check the aircraft out solo themselves before giving him a ground brief on its characteristics (sky turns green when you stall!) and sent him off.
"Statistically, aircraft approved for SEP Class training are maintained to a high sufficiently high standard to make engine failure a very, very unlikely event. So to cover every possible contingency ..."
Not talking every contingency in this thread, but PFLs.
Here are couple of questions from microlight instructor revalidations:
Give me five reasons why your nice new Rotax 912 (basically a certified SEP engine) powered microlight might have an engine failure?)
This was from an examiner who had had his throttle cable go at 50ft on take-off after having just crossed the Severn at height too low to glide to the other side!
Give me five reasons why your solo student could have a dangerous and unusual attitude on his first solo?
Well, this is what this thread is about. There are no rights and wrongs, I think, but different ways of thinking.
As for diversion airfields, we just tell students to use the farmer's field next door! (There again, unlike the runway at Strathaven, it is harrowed and rolled at least twice a year, so probably smoother!)
Very best wishes to all
"Well, perhaps if you are talking about flying machines with such unreliable engines, then you might have a point."
Accepted as regards the two-stroke days, which was when our syllabus was drawn up. But now we have the ubiquitous Rotax 912 - designed as a certified engine - it does beg the question that this thread is based on: Why have two different approaches to training and PFLs. The syllabus for micros is on the NPPL web site.
"I'm not quite sure how a student can be permitted to fly his own aeroplane without holding a licence...?"
Quite simple. You buy the aircraft, you employ the instructor. In the light aircraft world, there might be questions as to whether it is on a private C of A or a Public C of A - or indeed in the PFA permit world whether of not it is soley owned - if money is changing hands for instruction. But if you are solo, you are in the aircraft yourself and as long as you meet the regs for that flying machine, you can do it. The problem in this case gives scope for another thread: the instructors had told (not advised) the student not to buy the aircraft and that they would not fly in it. Student insisted on buying. Student then wanted to do some of his solo hours in own aircraft (very common in microlighting since it used to be completely illegal to hire aircraft, so to continue flying after licence issue then microlight had to be purchased). Instructors thought: well, he is going to have to fly it sometime. Decided to check the aircraft out solo themselves before giving him a ground brief on its characteristics (sky turns green when you stall!) and sent him off.
"Statistically, aircraft approved for SEP Class training are maintained to a high sufficiently high standard to make engine failure a very, very unlikely event. So to cover every possible contingency ..."
Not talking every contingency in this thread, but PFLs.
Here are couple of questions from microlight instructor revalidations:
Give me five reasons why your nice new Rotax 912 (basically a certified SEP engine) powered microlight might have an engine failure?)
This was from an examiner who had had his throttle cable go at 50ft on take-off after having just crossed the Severn at height too low to glide to the other side!
Give me five reasons why your solo student could have a dangerous and unusual attitude on his first solo?
Well, this is what this thread is about. There are no rights and wrongs, I think, but different ways of thinking.
As for diversion airfields, we just tell students to use the farmer's field next door! (There again, unlike the runway at Strathaven, it is harrowed and rolled at least twice a year, so probably smoother!)
Very best wishes to all
At the end of the day it's all about probabilities.
Let me tell you something - learning to fly is "risky"! Now I know we are not allowed to use that word but it's true. Of course as instructors we are doing everything we reasonably can to eliminate the risk. On early solos the instructor is making most of the "command" decisions, e.g. weather, atc situation, student skill level, etc.
We could perhaps teach them everything in the syllabus before they go solo but we don't - what about Steep Turns just in case he has to take emergency avoiding action on his first solo - ever seen a bandit flog straight through the ATZ without clearance? But this just would not be practical. We have to be careful we do not generate a problem by fixing another one.
The basics of learning to fly are very simple and it's plain counter-productive if you start to complicate it in the early days of the students flying.
Let me tell you something - learning to fly is "risky"! Now I know we are not allowed to use that word but it's true. Of course as instructors we are doing everything we reasonably can to eliminate the risk. On early solos the instructor is making most of the "command" decisions, e.g. weather, atc situation, student skill level, etc.
We could perhaps teach them everything in the syllabus before they go solo but we don't - what about Steep Turns just in case he has to take emergency avoiding action on his first solo - ever seen a bandit flog straight through the ATZ without clearance? But this just would not be practical. We have to be careful we do not generate a problem by fixing another one.
The basics of learning to fly are very simple and it's plain counter-productive if you start to complicate it in the early days of the students flying.
"Instructors thought: well, he is going to have to fly it sometime. Decided to check the aircraft out solo themselves before giving him a ground brief on its characteristics (sky turns green when you stall!) and sent him off."
So, the instructors had severe doubts about the aircraft, yet still 'sent him off'?
Why, if they harboured such doubts, did they authorise him to fly it?
So, the instructors had severe doubts about the aircraft, yet still 'sent him off'?
Why, if they harboured such doubts, did they authorise him to fly it?
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Hi BEagle,
We sent him off because: the aircraft was approved to BCAR Section S, it had a current permit to fly, we could find nothing wrong with it on a pre-flight inspection, the weather was within the POH limits, the student had his 3rd party insurance and medical and shown himself to be a competant student and he felt comfortable with doing it. (oops, that sounds like a pre-solo checklist that some queried the need for!)
We didn't like doing it because the Mainair Flash 2 - which was designed and used as a microlight school trainer when new - turned out to be a heap of cr** and was fairly soon replaced by the Flash 2 Alpha. It may still be approved by the CAA, but I ain't going to fly in one. I believe there are some light aircraft that people feel like that about too.
Now the conundrum. If a student is going to fly this aircraft after he gets his licence, perhaps his later solo hours under the ground supervision of an instructor are more beneficial to him if on that type. It means the debriefs are going to be more relevant to his future flying than they might be if he was in a more modern machine.
Our thought was to change one thing at a time. So learn dual on a modern machine, then solo on a modern machine, then when competant at solo (ie the stage one would consider an xc) have a go solo on his own machine.
Fortunately, since he had an engine failure (due to a nipple breaking off a cable) and had to do his first landing in a new type dead stick, we must have given him the right training (and the lucky rabbit's foot) since he put it in a field next to the airfield virtually undamaged.
Very best
We sent him off because: the aircraft was approved to BCAR Section S, it had a current permit to fly, we could find nothing wrong with it on a pre-flight inspection, the weather was within the POH limits, the student had his 3rd party insurance and medical and shown himself to be a competant student and he felt comfortable with doing it. (oops, that sounds like a pre-solo checklist that some queried the need for!)
We didn't like doing it because the Mainair Flash 2 - which was designed and used as a microlight school trainer when new - turned out to be a heap of cr** and was fairly soon replaced by the Flash 2 Alpha. It may still be approved by the CAA, but I ain't going to fly in one. I believe there are some light aircraft that people feel like that about too.
Now the conundrum. If a student is going to fly this aircraft after he gets his licence, perhaps his later solo hours under the ground supervision of an instructor are more beneficial to him if on that type. It means the debriefs are going to be more relevant to his future flying than they might be if he was in a more modern machine.
Our thought was to change one thing at a time. So learn dual on a modern machine, then solo on a modern machine, then when competant at solo (ie the stage one would consider an xc) have a go solo on his own machine.
Fortunately, since he had an engine failure (due to a nipple breaking off a cable) and had to do his first landing in a new type dead stick, we must have given him the right training (and the lucky rabbit's foot) since he put it in a field next to the airfield virtually undamaged.
Very best
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Lots of interesting stuff on this thread which, to my mind, proves two slightly contradictory premises:
1. the PPL syllabus has been proved by time and works well
2. we should never close our minds to innovation.
To go back to the original question, I would not normally teach pfls prior to solo but I have done so - with those rare students who learn to fly before their 16th birthday - therefore it's not hard and fast by any means. Those of us who have instructed for a long time are only too aware that the PPL course is basically about showing the student how not to kill himself by avoiding the traps that aviating encompasses. 45 hours is not nearly enough to teach anyone to fly in a meaningful sense. We hand them a bucket full of training and hope that they replace it with a like amount of experience as they progress as licensed pilots. At the end of the day, I believe that it's down to the individual relationship between the instructor and student as to how one progresses through the syllabus.
Teaching people to fly is one of the most rewarding things on the planet. We are a very fortunate group of people.
1. the PPL syllabus has been proved by time and works well
2. we should never close our minds to innovation.
To go back to the original question, I would not normally teach pfls prior to solo but I have done so - with those rare students who learn to fly before their 16th birthday - therefore it's not hard and fast by any means. Those of us who have instructed for a long time are only too aware that the PPL course is basically about showing the student how not to kill himself by avoiding the traps that aviating encompasses. 45 hours is not nearly enough to teach anyone to fly in a meaningful sense. We hand them a bucket full of training and hope that they replace it with a like amount of experience as they progress as licensed pilots. At the end of the day, I believe that it's down to the individual relationship between the instructor and student as to how one progresses through the syllabus.
Teaching people to fly is one of the most rewarding things on the planet. We are a very fortunate group of people.
So you guys are sending students solo without briefing them on where they are to go in the event of the runway becoming blocked/airfield closed?
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A students view
As a low hours PPL student doing the circuit I am with BristolScout's view
"I believe that it's down to the individual relationship between the instructor and student as to how one progresses through the syllabus"
I will discuss the issues with my instructor near the time he suggests I go solo because as fireflybob states "Let me tell you something - learning to fly is "risky"!"
I want .... with the help of my instructor.. to review the risks and make an informed decision as to when I am ready.
This thread will help me to make the informed decision... many thanks.
"I believe that it's down to the individual relationship between the instructor and student as to how one progresses through the syllabus"
I will discuss the issues with my instructor near the time he suggests I go solo because as fireflybob states "Let me tell you something - learning to fly is "risky"!"
I want .... with the help of my instructor.. to review the risks and make an informed decision as to when I am ready.
This thread will help me to make the informed decision... many thanks.
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And Caully,
Rest assured, when you have your licence and you wish to hire the clubs aircraft, if your CFI or Ops Manager senses you should not go due: wx, we WILL TELL you.
A licence to learn - just like driving.
Think of every eventuality my friend - leave the why's and wherefores to those in the know.
VFE.
Rest assured, when you have your licence and you wish to hire the clubs aircraft, if your CFI or Ops Manager senses you should not go due: wx, we WILL TELL you.
A licence to learn - just like driving.
Think of every eventuality my friend - leave the why's and wherefores to those in the know.
VFE.
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Caully.
With respect, I don't think you'll be discussing things with your instructor when he suggests you go solo. He/she will climb out of the aeroplane and you'll be rather preoccupied for the next ten minutes. Treasure the moment.
With respect, I don't think you'll be discussing things with your instructor when he suggests you go solo. He/she will climb out of the aeroplane and you'll be rather preoccupied for the next ten minutes. Treasure the moment.
