Is anyone paid for ground briefing time?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Smurph Castle
Age: 45
Posts: 498
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is anyone paid for ground briefing time?
I'm rather peturbed to discover that I'm only paid for my flying hours by my new club, meaning I can work 8.30am-6pm not stopping all day (as I did yesterday) and receive 4 hours' pay.
I paid for my instructor's ground teaching time as a PPL stude - not the refuelling, discussions of training issues with enthusiastic students, doing paperwork, parking aircraft and taxi from hangers, picking up the phone, etc. etc - just the formal briefs. And I thought that was fair enough! But from what I gather now, this was a pretty unusual setup.
No wonder some instructors don't bother to take the time to ensure students fully understand everything before they fly, meaning it takes them longer to catch on!
I was expecting poverty and don't mind that, but I'm feeling distinctly put out. I guess the usual 'supply and demand' and 'that's market forces' comments are coming. I guess I'm naive.
I paid for my instructor's ground teaching time as a PPL stude - not the refuelling, discussions of training issues with enthusiastic students, doing paperwork, parking aircraft and taxi from hangers, picking up the phone, etc. etc - just the formal briefs. And I thought that was fair enough! But from what I gather now, this was a pretty unusual setup.
No wonder some instructors don't bother to take the time to ensure students fully understand everything before they fly, meaning it takes them longer to catch on!
I was expecting poverty and don't mind that, but I'm feeling distinctly put out. I guess the usual 'supply and demand' and 'that's market forces' comments are coming. I guess I'm naive.
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 4,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quite normal, I'm afraid. 
I was never paid for ground instruction at PPL level. But - my students never paid for ground instruction. The only exception was for the series of evening classes which the school ran on winter evenings to help students with the written exams - I ran the Aircraft Technical course, and got paid a fixed amount for the course.
On the other hand, when I qualified as an IMC instructor, I was paid for ground instruction with IMC students. But my school charged IMC students for ground instruction (unlike PPL students) and passed some of this charge on to me.
(The reason for this, by the way, was because the previous IMC instructor had left because, amongst other things, he was unhappy that IMC instruction required more time on the ground for less time in the air - so he was effectively being paid less for being more qualified.)
The best thing to do is make good use of bad-weather days (and there are plenty of those at the moment). If you have a student who is solo in the circuit, for example, you can use a bad-weather day to do the long briefing on navigation (which the student will need to do before too long anyway). I found that there are enough bad-weather days that I could pretty much get all of the longer briefings done on these days, and maximise the amount of flying I did on good-weather days.
Incidentally, now I teach CPL and IR, I still don't get paid for ground school - only for aircraft or simulator time. Which is why I get particularly annoyed when the school schedule two ME students to start the course a week apart, and I have to cover the 7 hours of ground tuition twice rather than combine it together for the two students. But that's the way it goes sometimes.
FFF
------------------
I was never paid for ground instruction at PPL level. But - my students never paid for ground instruction. The only exception was for the series of evening classes which the school ran on winter evenings to help students with the written exams - I ran the Aircraft Technical course, and got paid a fixed amount for the course.
On the other hand, when I qualified as an IMC instructor, I was paid for ground instruction with IMC students. But my school charged IMC students for ground instruction (unlike PPL students) and passed some of this charge on to me.
(The reason for this, by the way, was because the previous IMC instructor had left because, amongst other things, he was unhappy that IMC instruction required more time on the ground for less time in the air - so he was effectively being paid less for being more qualified.)
The best thing to do is make good use of bad-weather days (and there are plenty of those at the moment). If you have a student who is solo in the circuit, for example, you can use a bad-weather day to do the long briefing on navigation (which the student will need to do before too long anyway). I found that there are enough bad-weather days that I could pretty much get all of the longer briefings done on these days, and maximise the amount of flying I did on good-weather days.
Incidentally, now I teach CPL and IR, I still don't get paid for ground school - only for aircraft or simulator time. Which is why I get particularly annoyed when the school schedule two ME students to start the course a week apart, and I have to cover the 7 hours of ground tuition twice rather than combine it together for the two students. But that's the way it goes sometimes.
FFF
------------------
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Pengiuna,
FlyingForFun is quite right in what he/she says.
I'm guessing that by this time next year will have found a lot more reasons to be "put out". In my experience a career in flying has a lot more downsides than upsides.
I've only ever worked for one school where the instructors were paid for briefs, etc. This school was in Florida. From what I remember the instructors started to earn the minute they shook the students hand and stopped once they had debriefed. There was one rate for ground time and another one for flying. Whether or not this way of billing is a good idea depends on how you look at it. The US instructors weren't being paid an awful lot. Therefore the total fee for their time may well have equalled what you or I would have expected to be paid for the flight time alone.
Your comment about instructors not wanting to waste time with briefings is a valid one. Where I work my colleague gives some of the shortest pre-flight briefs that I've ever seen. Having said that, at the start of the day he's often just about to get airborne (making money) while I'm still on the ground finishing a standard 15 minute or so brief. To make matters worse the school that I work for has a booking schedule that doesn't allow for more than 5-10 minutes of briefing time per lesson. This results in me being constantly either just in time or late for my next lesson. By limiting or eliminating briefs my colleague has more time to fly and therefore make money while providing what I view to be a lower standard of training. Not that I can blame him for the way that he operates. I'm sure that it makes his day both easier and more profitable.
When it comes to ground school I do charge for certain briefs at critical stages in the both the PPL and IMC courses. For example I always give and charge for briefs prior to commencing the navigation phase of the training. The student is charged £20/ hour. This is split 50/50 with my employer.
Good luck in the future.
FlyingForFun is quite right in what he/she says.
I'm guessing that by this time next year will have found a lot more reasons to be "put out". In my experience a career in flying has a lot more downsides than upsides.
I've only ever worked for one school where the instructors were paid for briefs, etc. This school was in Florida. From what I remember the instructors started to earn the minute they shook the students hand and stopped once they had debriefed. There was one rate for ground time and another one for flying. Whether or not this way of billing is a good idea depends on how you look at it. The US instructors weren't being paid an awful lot. Therefore the total fee for their time may well have equalled what you or I would have expected to be paid for the flight time alone.
Your comment about instructors not wanting to waste time with briefings is a valid one. Where I work my colleague gives some of the shortest pre-flight briefs that I've ever seen. Having said that, at the start of the day he's often just about to get airborne (making money) while I'm still on the ground finishing a standard 15 minute or so brief. To make matters worse the school that I work for has a booking schedule that doesn't allow for more than 5-10 minutes of briefing time per lesson. This results in me being constantly either just in time or late for my next lesson. By limiting or eliminating briefs my colleague has more time to fly and therefore make money while providing what I view to be a lower standard of training. Not that I can blame him for the way that he operates. I'm sure that it makes his day both easier and more profitable.
When it comes to ground school I do charge for certain briefs at critical stages in the both the PPL and IMC courses. For example I always give and charge for briefs prior to commencing the navigation phase of the training. The student is charged £20/ hour. This is split 50/50 with my employer.
Good luck in the future.
Last edited by Esperanza; 21st Jan 2007 at 20:19.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 669
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ground Instruction is a professional service. Flying And Ground Instructors Are Professionals.
People expect to pay the going rate for professional services in this day and age... Yet very often it doesn`t seem to happen.. nobody wins.
<Sweeping Statement Which Won`t Apply Everywhere>
Historically PPL students have not paid the going rate for groundschool because it has not been marketed or delivered in the correct way.
<Sweeping Statement Which Won`t Apply Everywhere>
People expect to pay the going rate for professional services in this day and age... Yet very often it doesn`t seem to happen.. nobody wins.
<Sweeping Statement Which Won`t Apply Everywhere>
Historically PPL students have not paid the going rate for groundschool because it has not been marketed or delivered in the correct way.
<Sweeping Statement Which Won`t Apply Everywhere>
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,117
Received 2,957 Likes
on
1,261 Posts
I'm rather peturbed to discover that I'm only paid for my flying hours by my new club, meaning I can work 8.30am-6pm not stopping all day (as I did yesterday) and receive 4 hours' pay.
I paid for my instructor's ground teaching time as a PPL stude - not the refuelling, discussions of training issues with enthusiastic students, doing paperwork, parking aircraft and taxi from hangers, picking up the phone, etc. etc - just the formal briefs. And I thought that was fair enough! But from what I gather now, this was a pretty unusual setup.
No wonder some instructors don't bother to take the time to ensure students fully understand everything before they fly, meaning it takes them longer to catch on!
I was expecting poverty and don't mind that, but I'm feeling distinctly put out. I guess the usual 'supply and demand' and 'that's market forces' comments are coming. I guess I'm naive.
I paid for my instructor's ground teaching time as a PPL stude - not the refuelling, discussions of training issues with enthusiastic students, doing paperwork, parking aircraft and taxi from hangers, picking up the phone, etc. etc - just the formal briefs. And I thought that was fair enough! But from what I gather now, this was a pretty unusual setup.
No wonder some instructors don't bother to take the time to ensure students fully understand everything before they fly, meaning it takes them longer to catch on!
I was expecting poverty and don't mind that, but I'm feeling distinctly put out. I guess the usual 'supply and demand' and 'that's market forces' comments are coming. I guess I'm naive.
are you self employed?
Join Date: May 2005
Location: yorkshire
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agree with Windriver. You should charge for your ground briefings. I do and so do all of my colleagues at the school where I work.
If you don't, all you will be motivated to do is to "get the Hobbs meter turning". As a new instructor, you may feel enthused and keen to provide lengthy free briefings, but don't worry, this philanthropy won't last long. If you want to eat, you'll learn how to maximise your income and become more mercenary.
Make sure that, when you do land-aways, you charge for the time spent on the ground. After all, you are still teaching.
It seems to me that the only thing you have to sell, as an instructor, is your knowledge. Don't give it away, it has cost you an arm and a leg.
Would you please enlarge on the "self-employed" bit, Nutloose?
If you don't, all you will be motivated to do is to "get the Hobbs meter turning". As a new instructor, you may feel enthused and keen to provide lengthy free briefings, but don't worry, this philanthropy won't last long. If you want to eat, you'll learn how to maximise your income and become more mercenary.
Make sure that, when you do land-aways, you charge for the time spent on the ground. After all, you are still teaching.
It seems to me that the only thing you have to sell, as an instructor, is your knowledge. Don't give it away, it has cost you an arm and a leg.
Would you please enlarge on the "self-employed" bit, Nutloose?
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The best thing to do is make good use of bad-weather days (and there are plenty of those at the moment). If you have a student who is solo in the circuit, for example, you can use a bad-weather day to do the long briefing on navigation (which the student will need to do before too long anyway).
You need to get a meeting organised to change the status quo. If the course is sold as self study, then anyone requiring extra ground instruction should pay an agreed amount per hour.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is something in the guidance to RFTO's that ground school training must be provided.
I to was on the only payed while your flying lark with a retainer.
The hanging around earning nothing was the worst bit.
And never ever consider getting the Night restriction removed. It just means you have to sit around all day and then wait even longer for not alot.
To be honest you have actually started at the best time of year. It will be a bit slack and then go mental from about April onwards. But start planning now for quiting in September you really don't want a full winter. And have a plan from the start when your going to stop for the year. Anything more than 1000 hours of SEP doesn't really help your cause. And when ever you can get the student to fly IFR in VMC. It could help out later on if there is a possibilty of a single crew job.
Have a look at this thread see if you can see what I was on about.
You can maybe understand now why most trial flights the brief consists of "where do you want to go?"
Its amazing what owners see as part and parcel of your job. The best ploy is to be great as an instructor and be liked by the punters. Then systematically
up everything else you get bullied into doing.
I to was on the only payed while your flying lark with a retainer.
The hanging around earning nothing was the worst bit.
And never ever consider getting the Night restriction removed. It just means you have to sit around all day and then wait even longer for not alot.
To be honest you have actually started at the best time of year. It will be a bit slack and then go mental from about April onwards. But start planning now for quiting in September you really don't want a full winter. And have a plan from the start when your going to stop for the year. Anything more than 1000 hours of SEP doesn't really help your cause. And when ever you can get the student to fly IFR in VMC. It could help out later on if there is a possibilty of a single crew job.
Have a look at this thread see if you can see what I was on about.
You can maybe understand now why most trial flights the brief consists of "where do you want to go?"
Its amazing what owners see as part and parcel of your job. The best ploy is to be great as an instructor and be liked by the punters. Then systematically
up everything else you get bullied into doing.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 669
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The (apparent?) trend to self study for Ground Training is madness on every level.
Arguably each of the Ground School Subjects can stand about 2 full days in the classroom, plus some directed self study. There are solid grounds for insisting students attend this training.
Scheduling school and instructor time on a rolling basis is the way to go... irrespective of the flying programme.
If the courses are scheduled students will find the time to attend.. and pay the going rate. Those that can`t are subject to "Instructor Consultancy Fees" ie It's cheaper for them to attend the scheduled classes.
There are solid commercial benefits for the school and the instructors.
I appreciate no one will agree with me because "It's not the way it's done."
Arguably each of the Ground School Subjects can stand about 2 full days in the classroom, plus some directed self study. There are solid grounds for insisting students attend this training.
Scheduling school and instructor time on a rolling basis is the way to go... irrespective of the flying programme.
If the courses are scheduled students will find the time to attend.. and pay the going rate. Those that can`t are subject to "Instructor Consultancy Fees" ie It's cheaper for them to attend the scheduled classes.
There are solid commercial benefits for the school and the instructors.
I appreciate no one will agree with me because "It's not the way it's done."
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: essex
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I worked for a large school in London area and students had 2 options
1 - PAY FOR ALL GROUND AND FLIGHT TRAINING INC PRICE
2 - PAY FOR FLIGHT TRAINING ONLY AND GET BILLED FOR ANY GS USED
Worked well in that if they had paid for groundschool then they attended group scheduled student briefings
If they wanted to pay as they needed groundschool then they could do that
Either way I got paid for ground briefings and they tended to be done when not suitable for flying. These were lkey ong briefs such as NAV and CIRCUIT BRIEF.
The 20 min pre-flight brief was not charged however.
1 - PAY FOR ALL GROUND AND FLIGHT TRAINING INC PRICE
2 - PAY FOR FLIGHT TRAINING ONLY AND GET BILLED FOR ANY GS USED
Worked well in that if they had paid for groundschool then they attended group scheduled student briefings
If they wanted to pay as they needed groundschool then they could do that
Either way I got paid for ground briefings and they tended to be done when not suitable for flying. These were lkey ong briefs such as NAV and CIRCUIT BRIEF.
The 20 min pre-flight brief was not charged however.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We charge for briefing time in a reasonable non-rip-off way. If unable to fly because of weather, students are offered ground briefing and pay a nominal amount (eg I may spend two hours doing a long nav brief and then they buy me coffee/sandwich and get charged an hour's ground instruction). It's up to them if they prefer to go off on their own and read the book though most take up the offer of instructor time.
To put it in context, I'd charge for briefing a full aircraft check or a session on airlaw - but not for a regular pre-flight brief.
Our students seem perfectly happy with this. They say they get very good value. Often, two of them will sit in together and split the cost.
Aren't there any other schools that work like this ?
To put it in context, I'd charge for briefing a full aircraft check or a session on airlaw - but not for a regular pre-flight brief.
Our students seem perfectly happy with this. They say they get very good value. Often, two of them will sit in together and split the cost.
Aren't there any other schools that work like this ?
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: England
Posts: 1,688
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I get paid per hour flown however, the school I work for schedules 2 hours for each student so that equates to around an hour of unpaid ground time which is usually spent with the student in some way or another.... I prefer not to do more than the recommended 15 mins brief before a flight and that's for the students benefit - believe me, I can babble on for hours if you let me, but I'm not gonna max the student out before we get airbourne.
This unpaid hour is also taken up by refuelling the aircraft, paperwork, student records, etc (where does all the time go?!) which we all accept as part and parcel of the gig but it's hardly fair. On busy weekends we should all be paid a set wage because even if a student cancels and we have a free slot, our services are invariably used up in some other way by answering the phone or fetching an aircraft back from maintenance etc... Best thing to do is to sod off to the cafe really but that's only going to cause friction amongst collegues who are equally poorly paid.
VFE.
This unpaid hour is also taken up by refuelling the aircraft, paperwork, student records, etc (where does all the time go?!) which we all accept as part and parcel of the gig but it's hardly fair. On busy weekends we should all be paid a set wage because even if a student cancels and we have a free slot, our services are invariably used up in some other way by answering the phone or fetching an aircraft back from maintenance etc... Best thing to do is to sod off to the cafe really but that's only going to cause friction amongst collegues who are equally poorly paid.
VFE.
It's always struck me as being very strange, but in the UK the norm seems to be that instructors are only paid for flight time; it's wrong, but so are lots of things in life.
When I rule the world (which unfortunately is unlikely to happen):
) yet AFAIK there is nobody operating this way. Perhaps it's because there's a catch.
The most enjoyable places to instruct are those where there's a good "club" atmosphere and it's going to be difficult to maintain this if people feel there's a meter running. Skilfull management needed.
HFD
When I rule the world (which unfortunately is unlikely to happen):
- aircraft charge rates will be the same, whether dual or solo,
- FI charge rates will be shown separately on the invoice and will be for flight instruction and ground instruction, whether for the essential pre/post flight briefs, or the long briefs
- the FI charge will vary depending on the level being taught
- the FI will receive a fixed percentage of the charge rate and this percentage will be published
) yet AFAIK there is nobody operating this way. Perhaps it's because there's a catch. The most enjoyable places to instruct are those where there's a good "club" atmosphere and it's going to be difficult to maintain this if people feel there's a meter running. Skilfull management needed.
HFD
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The US has a system where you get gold seal or something like that instructors.
I don't know the in's and outs of it but my MEP instructor was one. And he was a very good instructor. He said when he was teaching PPL the punters had the option of Gold or normal FI they had to pay more if they wanted a Gold.
Maybe some of the US people could explain it and what you need to become one.
And HFD you forgot that women will have to pay 10% more than blokes due to the additional emotional grief the male instructor has to deal with. If they are getting taught by a female instructor its the same rate. This can be payed back at the end of the course if they haven't bust into tears, excessive hugging after solo or grabbed your knee at any point while demonstrating stalling, steep turns etc.
I don't know the in's and outs of it but my MEP instructor was one. And he was a very good instructor. He said when he was teaching PPL the punters had the option of Gold or normal FI they had to pay more if they wanted a Gold.
Maybe some of the US people could explain it and what you need to become one.
And HFD you forgot that women will have to pay 10% more than blokes due to the additional emotional grief the male instructor has to deal with. If they are getting taught by a female instructor its the same rate. This can be payed back at the end of the course if they haven't bust into tears, excessive hugging after solo or grabbed your knee at any point while demonstrating stalling, steep turns etc.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Down South, preferably inverted
Posts: 235
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And HFD you forgot that women will have to pay 10% more than blokes due to the additional emotional grief the male instructor has to deal with. If they are getting taught by a female instructor its the same rate. This can be payed back at the end of the course if they haven't bust into tears, excessive hugging after solo or grabbed your knee at any point while demonstrating stalling, steep turns etc.
I haven't hugged my instructor yet. Patted him affectionately on the shoulder after he'd looked after my "very nervous" step daughter on a aeros trial lesson though - does that count??
Nearly grabbed his knee when going full flaps on final once or twice - just goes to prove I've been taught "eyes outside"!!.
And some of us give our male instructor a nice bottle of scotch when sent solo despite being all emotional at the time. I didn't cry - close - but I didn't...
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Down South, preferably inverted
Posts: 235
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
