Instructing for Free???

[mustflywillfly]

Dear All,

Please don't bite my head off but.........!! Is it realistic to gain the FI(R) rating and then offer my services for free to a UK Club/School (on the south coast) on a part time, mainly weekend basis?.

I know that FI's get paid very poorly and some schmuck offering his services for free would upset the other instructors, if so, could I expect to be paid for doing just part time instructing?

I have been flying since I was 17, joined the Navy as a pilot after Uni, passed grading and elementary flying training but got chopped on advanced helicopter course (black art). Since then (2002) I have been flying a desk in the Navy and pretty much hate it! I love flying (have a PPL and about 154 hours with 61 PiC) and having taught groundschool to cadets and Navy engineers I realise that I get a massive buzz from teaching. Obviously I would like to combine the two but cannot afford to do it as a career, I would need to stay in the Navy Mon-Fri and instruct at weekends.

Am I being realistic, before I invest more money into hour building and ATPL groundschool etc.

Many Thanks MFWF

[foxmoth]

I would say do NOT instruct for free, I fly commercially and instruct for fun but on principle will not instruct for nothing even if it is an aircraft I particularly want to fly, you should be able to find a school that will pay you, especially at weekends when there is most demand and undercutting those who need to instruct is just not fair on them.

[mustflywillfly]

Originally Posted by foxmoth

I would say do NOT instruct for free, I fly commercially and instruct for fun but on principle will not instruct for nothing even if it is an aircraft I particularly want to fly, you should be able to find a school that will pay you, especially at weekends when there is most demand and undercutting those who need to instruct is just not fair on them.

Thanks for the reply. I wouldn't want to undercut anyone, I just wasn't sure if a school would be interested in a part time instructor on their books. Can I be necky and ask if you can suggest any amenable schools at Shoreham/Goodwood/Lee/Bournemouth ??!!??

Thanks

[VFE]

Do not instruct for free. You will not be popular and you do nothing to help those like myself who rely upon instructing to (almost) pay our bills.

Sky Aviation at Shoreham were looking for someone recently. £200/month retainer and £12.50/hr.

Good luck!

VFE.

[mustflywillfly]

Many thanks VFE

[18greens]

I'm going to say the same as all of them. Do not instruct for free. It's not fair to other instructors and it undervalues your skill. One other option is to take payment in flying rather than money to keep up your P1 time.

All schools/clubs need instructors. They all seem to welcome part-timers especially at the weekend to cover the glut plus the fulltimers like to get the occasional weekend off. No school minds paying the going rate £15-20/ hour. If they do go somewhere else.

Clubs churn instructors all of the time- mainly due to the poor pay, you should have no trouble locating a position.

[Dr Eckener]

You must not work for free. It is bad enough with people working for airlines for free, or even paying to do so, without instructing becoming another victim. Schools charge customers for your services, so you should get paid.

If you want to fly as a hobby then do so, but do not undermine things for everyone else!

Lots of schools want part time instructors so don't even think of offering to work for nothing. If you get asked to then tell them to take a hike.

[homeguard]

Free to Fly

If you wish to gain your Instructor Rating based on your PPL and therefore Instruct for free, then do so. It matters not what the FEW self interested think.
The industry desperately needs people who want to be part of a club for the fun of it and teach fellow club members FOR FREE! Thats how it use to be until the wannabees took control but sadly aided by ill judged support from the Belgrano. They too, the Belgrano, seemed to think that the flying instructor role was only a path to the airline job.
Many flying clubs are on their knees and surviving by the skin of their teeth and many are closing down. The only way flying will be revived in this country is if we can get back to the 'club' where members share flying as recreation and a common genuine interest.
You sound like the perfect fella to be an Instructor - do it!

[Dr Eckener]

Homeguard, you have got to be joking. It is not about 'wanabees', but about being able to progress to the required standard to be a good instructor, able to teach all aspects of flying (PPL/IMC/CPL/IR/ME/Aeros/FI/etc.), whilst making a living. From a personal opinion, if I had not been able to earn money as a PPL FI, I would not have been able to progress to ME/IR instruction.

By all means have your 'club' where you don't have to pay for instruction. Just send me your business card, so that when I need whatever you do for a living done for free I can give you a call.

[VFE]

By all means have your 'club' where you don't have to pay for instruction. Just send me your business card, so that when I need whatever you do for a living done for free I can give you a call.

Get real Homeguard.

Even the friendliest of small clubs do not begrudge the fledgling instructor a few quid for his services.

VFE.

[Say again s l o w l y]

To be totally blunt, for the long term health of the industry, the sooner the clubs that are hanging by a thread but surviving due to the FI's working for free go bust, the better for all.

Fixed wing flying is an uneconomic business due mainly to the fact that there have historically been people willing to do things for free. This has meant that the investment needed for continued growth hasn't happened as there is no real possibility for a decent return on investment.

This isn't a popular view point, but it is a realistic one. Too many amateurs and total incompetents have been involved with light a/c for too long. It has lead us to a position where now we have to fight to even survive. Let alone look to the future and fight the encroachment of issues such as Mode S and other such nasties.

Homeguard, to keep this industry strong we need people to see light a/c as a career rather than a stepping stone. How in the hell are we supposed to do this if people can't earn a wage from it? We weren't all born with trust funds. If this means GA has to get more expensive, then so be it. Will this stop some people? Yes, but what we really need is more people with more money, rather than the current large numbers of folk who can only just afford to do the minimum amount of flying to keep their ratings/licences valid.

This is purely a business observation, rather than saying that people with less money aren't welcome, but the reality is that we should be trying to attract people with money, rather than those without, but who are passionate about flight. We need all types of people, but you can't run a business around skint people!

So in essence. Don't work for free, you'll actually be contributing to the decline of GA, rather than helping it get stronger.

[effortless]

There were one or two genuine members', that is non profit, clubs around where instruction is given by fellow members for free. I thought that it was a condition imposed on the clubs. I believe that Cambridge Flying Group was one such case. Is this no longer true?

['India-Mike]

I'm currently finishing my ATPL theory. In Jan. '07 I have a financially-driven choice - pay for an instructor rating; or pay for a CPL.
If I go the former route, two local clubs get the benefit of an instructor next year that they wouldn't have. If I go the latter route I'll have a completely useless piece of paper for a year before I can afford the instructor rating.
Oh, and I won't be instructing for free. The clubs can charge a dual rate as usual - I simply won't be receiving any valuable consideration until CPL in '08. Clubs benefit to the tune of £25/hour for a year. I know CFI's at both clubs well - they know it's not in their or club interests to favour the 'free' instructor over those with CPL's.

[homeguard]

Free flying

Those of you so passionate that ALL Instructors should ALWAYS be paid go now and find your old instructors who taught you for a pitance or for free - then pay them please what you hadn't done before. Then if you have any money left start your own school and make the fortune you claim is waiting for you.
Many of us hold the licences and ratings that we have thanks to the fellow club members who taught us many years ago for either a pitance or for free. We became friends more often than not. One such person who taught me for a pitance has remained a friend for 30 years and was best man at my remarriage 6 years ago. He is a current Captain for a major british airline and is partly so because of my and others patronage (mainly of course owing to his own hard work). It's a two way shake.
Britain is already one of the highest payers of instructors in the world. Evidence by many from all over the world who contribute to prune.
Go and get the rich and stuff the poor is not only niave but offensive to so many that have struggled through our flying clubs and have given back so much so that you could afford to be where you are today.
goflywillfly I wish you all the best! Don't be put off by wingers. The rich are not here in great enough numbers as is witnessed by the enormous decline in licence applications each year and the sorry state of our clubs today. By getting your Instructor Rating you will be instrumental in making it possible for so many others to fly and love it just like you do, rich or poor.

[Dan Winterland]

If you don't need the cash then give it away to a charity - the pprune fund perhaps? But don't instruct for free. You are devalueing the profession and hindering those others who aspire to the job.

[Say again s l o w l y]

When I trained, I always paid my Instructors. I got advice on the ground, but I have never asked anyone to work for nothing.

Homeguard, I'm afraid that you are being naive in this instance. There is space for the kind of utopian flying club you describe, but back in the real world where people have bills to pay, how could you get long term high quality instructors without paying them a decent wage?

Relying on airline pilots is a non starter, since they can only do the odd day here or there, or if they work for a company like my previous one aren't allowed to instruct at all.

Could you run a business with staff like that? I couldn't. Not exactly good for continuity of training either......

I am the CFI of a relatively recent entrant into the the wonderful world of PPL training and if you do it right, then a business can be successful. We started up because to be honest, the general standards at the moment are absolutely rubbish, in customer care, training standards and support post licence issue. Tell me how many places do any of these properly? There are some good clubs/schools out there, but there is an awful lot more dross.

Why shouldn't a business make money? Long term a business has to be able to stand on it's own two feet rather than relying on the good will of a wealthy owner/s to keep bailing it out and subsidising other peoples flying. Otherwise, what happens when that person gets bored by it?

This is a complex and emotive issue, but one that exposes a great many of the problems we face in this industry.

I'll tell you what Homeguard, you go and start a flying club with your own money and come back in 3 years and tell us your opinion then.

[foxmoth]

Homeguard,
If you think anyone is going to get rich instructing then you obviously do not know what instructors get paid in the UK. Personally I have no great problem with a PPL who does the required exams then instructs for free, - provided the school does not then charge the student (or at least charges a lesser rate, I will allow for the fact that they provide facilities), though it does not take much more to then get a CPL anyway.
The people who are "stuffing the poor" are not the instructors who charge (still a pittance), but those who undermine a decent wage for instructors by doing it for free

[hobbit1983]

Isn't it probably the case, generally, that those who would instruct for free deserve to be paid the same rate that another instructor, who is instructing primarily as a means of hours-building?

Given also that the "free" instructor is by definition doing it for fun, and would therefore presumably be enthusastic & outgoing.

Not to say that the hourbuilding instructors are doing a worse job you understand; merely to point out that if an instructor is doing a good job for free, he/she deserves to get the market going rate.

And if said instructor wants to help those less well off financially, surely there are schemes, like flying scholarships/air cadets/etc that are there to do this?

[TheOddOne]

Our Group was originally formed by an Ops Manager at Heathrow to provide an environment in which airport staff could learn to fly who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford it. This was in 1964 and we're still going over 40 years later. We all give our services for free to minimise the cost-base and encourage a club atmosphere in which we all fly as friends. We are strictly restricted by the owner of the aerodrome from which we operate in who we can accept in our Group, quite rightly, so that we don't 'undercut' the commercial schools. In any case, we offer a quite different product. Interestingly, our membership numbers and hours flown have both fallen away in line with reports from many other organisations. We just don't seem to be able to attract enough people who fit our membership profile; there does seem a general waning in interest in learning to fly, even within the aviation industry.

In this context, I can't see anything wrong in instructors working for free for a self-help non-profit-making Group. In fact, I've just acquired the Class Rating Instructor ticket so that I can check-out PPLs properly. I won't be charging for this.

This is quite a different matter from organisations who are required to make a profit taking advantage of those who don't feel able to charge the going rate for their services.

TheOddOne

[Say again s l o w l y]

TheOddOne,

In your situation, there isn't any ambiguity, it is a non-profit making club bringing people into aviation. That is a fantastic thing and long may it continue. As you rightly point out, this issue is not about organisations such as yours, but about commercial companies taking advantage of people.

There is a general drop in the numbers of people coming through doors of flying schools. Schools are also failing massively when it comes to retaining customers who have finished their initial PPL training.
The industry is badly run and could concievably disappear in years to come. The less people involved, them more expensive it will be for those that are left in, which brings us back to only the very rich being able to afford it.

Not a good situation for anyone.