Instructing for Free???
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: notts
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Doctor of Death!
Stop winging Dr Eckener and many others too about what others are doing and get a life of your own!
I do honestly wish you all the best for the future but you will have to stop being so cynical. It really is very sad to listen to some of you. Your all so negative about your own lifes and what you should get out of it yet so critical of others. It is a very exiting life if you swtch onto it.
Take seriously the words of Freud, 'you are born with two ears, two eyes but one mouth. The sad reality of so many is not to use each to the same proportions'.
I do honestly wish you all the best for the future but you will have to stop being so cynical. It really is very sad to listen to some of you. Your all so negative about your own lifes and what you should get out of it yet so critical of others. It is a very exiting life if you swtch onto it.
Take seriously the words of Freud, 'you are born with two ears, two eyes but one mouth. The sad reality of so many is not to use each to the same proportions'.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: yorkshire
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Mr Homeguard,
I don't understand how your club functions. You are not allowed to be employed or take a dividend or profit, so how do you live?
I would guess that you are self-employed and contracted to instruct at your club...is that how it works?
Your posts suggest that you are in business to promote flying and further the careers of other pilots at minimum cost to them, so presumably, you work for free?
Perhaps I'm quite confused, but your comments don't seem consistent to me.
Let's be straight.
Do you make a living out of your school?
Do you benefit from the unpaid work of some of your instructors?
If you do, then it would be hardly surprising for you to encourage people to enter the industry with the intent of working without pay.
I don't suppose that you'd like to advertise your schools' name on PPrune, would you? You may well be overwhelmed by new instructors clutching thin logbooks...eager to work for nothing. We know that they are out there.
I've tried to keep any acidity from the tone of this posting, but I'm finding it a struggle. I do consider your practises, as I understand them, to be extremely exploitative and unjustifiable.
Be straight with us and (hopefully) paint a more favourable picture of your organisation.
Bogbeagle
Sherburn Aero Club
I don't understand how your club functions. You are not allowed to be employed or take a dividend or profit, so how do you live?
I would guess that you are self-employed and contracted to instruct at your club...is that how it works?
Your posts suggest that you are in business to promote flying and further the careers of other pilots at minimum cost to them, so presumably, you work for free?
Perhaps I'm quite confused, but your comments don't seem consistent to me.
Let's be straight.
Do you make a living out of your school?
Do you benefit from the unpaid work of some of your instructors?
If you do, then it would be hardly surprising for you to encourage people to enter the industry with the intent of working without pay.
I don't suppose that you'd like to advertise your schools' name on PPrune, would you? You may well be overwhelmed by new instructors clutching thin logbooks...eager to work for nothing. We know that they are out there.
I've tried to keep any acidity from the tone of this posting, but I'm finding it a struggle. I do consider your practises, as I understand them, to be extremely exploitative and unjustifiable.
Be straight with us and (hopefully) paint a more favourable picture of your organisation.
Bogbeagle
Sherburn Aero Club
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What?
No Bogbeagle I am not going to justify my school with you or anyone else. The buck stops with me. How I run my school is my business and no one elses. Having said that I pay my instructors pretty much the going rate to most, perhaps a bit more than some other clubs and bit less than others. I also have instructors who do not need the money and are long standing associates and friends and who have the well being and success of the club at heart. I'm also sure that my paid Instructors do also. All of them have been with me for a number of years. Other members have over time done much to help keep the club alive and support me whenever they can and without payment. That maybe electrical work or something else. I would hope that they would all agree that whenever i can I recipricate those favours.
I note that you have signed yourself 'Sherburn Aero club' which I know well. Indeed i worked there myself 15 years or so ago part time/full time for almost two years. Sherburn is a big club with over 500 members with a considerable income from Membership fees/hangarage/Landing fees/rents from other users and fuel sales. The club is non-profit making and is owned by the members and administered in the main by its UNPAID directors. The club being owned by the members and non-profit making is able to be vat exempt from charging vat for most of its services subject to the Sporting and Recreation VAT exemption rules. Most years, the directors tell me, the club makes a loss on the flying training elements but this is offset by the other income. Sherburn is a smashing club and a flagship.
If you are employed as an instructor at Sherburn then you surely understand you are only paid and have the work because so many others work for nothing (unpaid directors for instance) and because of the dedication of many of its members. At one point in the clubs history during the 1980's the club faced bankruptcy. A number of individuals came forward with interest free loans worked for nothing and saved the club - that is called philanthropy and owing to that the club survived and is what it is today.
So you see, while of course I do not support exploitaion and I hope cannot be accused of it, but some will, I have been around long enough to value the contributions without pay that so many have over the years given to clubs such as mine and yours.
My reasons for contributing on this thread is to balance the argument 'that no one should work for nothing because it undermines the earnings of others'. But so many are only earning today because of the free time and philanthropy of many in the past and currently. If you work for Sherburn as an Instructor you are indeed a beneficiary of such philanthropy. There may indeed be an argument that when some who can give their services for free do so others can be paid when otherwise there simply wouldn't be the cash to do so.
Another qoute, 'those that know the price of everything but the value of nothing', Oscar Wilde.
I note that you have signed yourself 'Sherburn Aero club' which I know well. Indeed i worked there myself 15 years or so ago part time/full time for almost two years. Sherburn is a big club with over 500 members with a considerable income from Membership fees/hangarage/Landing fees/rents from other users and fuel sales. The club is non-profit making and is owned by the members and administered in the main by its UNPAID directors. The club being owned by the members and non-profit making is able to be vat exempt from charging vat for most of its services subject to the Sporting and Recreation VAT exemption rules. Most years, the directors tell me, the club makes a loss on the flying training elements but this is offset by the other income. Sherburn is a smashing club and a flagship.
If you are employed as an instructor at Sherburn then you surely understand you are only paid and have the work because so many others work for nothing (unpaid directors for instance) and because of the dedication of many of its members. At one point in the clubs history during the 1980's the club faced bankruptcy. A number of individuals came forward with interest free loans worked for nothing and saved the club - that is called philanthropy and owing to that the club survived and is what it is today.
So you see, while of course I do not support exploitaion and I hope cannot be accused of it, but some will, I have been around long enough to value the contributions without pay that so many have over the years given to clubs such as mine and yours.
My reasons for contributing on this thread is to balance the argument 'that no one should work for nothing because it undermines the earnings of others'. But so many are only earning today because of the free time and philanthropy of many in the past and currently. If you work for Sherburn as an Instructor you are indeed a beneficiary of such philanthropy. There may indeed be an argument that when some who can give their services for free do so others can be paid when otherwise there simply wouldn't be the cash to do so.
Another qoute, 'those that know the price of everything but the value of nothing', Oscar Wilde.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: UK
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CFI
Can someone also clarify the role of CFI; are they just senior instructors or do they actually have some other role within a flying school!
What benefit do they serve and to who?
Our CFI did not instruct for free (neither did any of the instructors - whipping boys
kept this in order!) but I was not aware of him being paid or treated differently from the other instructors. He did however seem to spend a LOT of time on the ground chasing the other instructors and making their jobs seem incredably structured and easy to do. He seemed to do all the organising for the instructors and the background paperwork - apparently for no additional pay!
This thread appears to be in favour of ALL instructors being paid - what about CFI's. What is a reasonable pay to expect or is he REQUIRED by the other instructors? If this is the case should instructors be morally obliged to pay a contribution to the FTO towards the CFI cost to ensure they have a place to work!
What benefit do they serve and to who?
Our CFI did not instruct for free (neither did any of the instructors - whipping boys
kept this in order!) but I was not aware of him being paid or treated differently from the other instructors. He did however seem to spend a LOT of time on the ground chasing the other instructors and making their jobs seem incredably structured and easy to do. He seemed to do all the organising for the instructors and the background paperwork - apparently for no additional pay!This thread appears to be in favour of ALL instructors being paid - what about CFI's. What is a reasonable pay to expect or is he REQUIRED by the other instructors? If this is the case should instructors be morally obliged to pay a contribution to the FTO towards the CFI cost to ensure they have a place to work!
