Search for the UK's most poorly paid PPL instructor
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IMHO the hourly rate is only a small part of the problem.
Whilst Instructors should place more value in themselves, employers shoudl also do likewise
I really feel for the new guys and gals, desperate to fly and recoup some of the staggering costs and facing high competition, many companies will treat them extremely poorly and expect them to be grateful for it
It was the case when I started and it meant that after less than six months I wanted out. Not from instructing, but away from the clowns I worked for (bullying, liars, thieves, incompetent). With some experience I'm now far more selective. I'm grateful for work BUT not desperate.
Perhaps another thread could be the 'The Uk's most poorly treated Instructor'?
Agree FI's should be better paid, but there are too many looking for work for any leverage to be applied on the smaller employers. Best option is if you find a company thats not worth working for, slowly look elsewhere, and when you've gone try to advise newly qualified FI's to look elsewhere also.
When the lower end of the companies realise that they need FI's and a ready stream of slaves are no longer willing to work (in the loosest sense) for them, these parasites will either go bust or improve their attitudes
I can't be the only one thats had to listen to some idiot explain that 'The industry can only survive this way' and 'when I started we had to eat our own clothes and were thankful if we were allowed to sweep the hangar let alone fly'. Perhaps those still living in the dark ages should return there.
I really don't miss that sort of cr@p. Its a long hard slog, but for some worth it at the end. If, one day I become CFI/CP and I'm no better feel free to form an orderly queue and give me the slapping I'll deserve
Whilst Instructors should place more value in themselves, employers shoudl also do likewise
I really feel for the new guys and gals, desperate to fly and recoup some of the staggering costs and facing high competition, many companies will treat them extremely poorly and expect them to be grateful for it
It was the case when I started and it meant that after less than six months I wanted out. Not from instructing, but away from the clowns I worked for (bullying, liars, thieves, incompetent). With some experience I'm now far more selective. I'm grateful for work BUT not desperate.
Perhaps another thread could be the 'The Uk's most poorly treated Instructor'?
Agree FI's should be better paid, but there are too many looking for work for any leverage to be applied on the smaller employers. Best option is if you find a company thats not worth working for, slowly look elsewhere, and when you've gone try to advise newly qualified FI's to look elsewhere also.
When the lower end of the companies realise that they need FI's and a ready stream of slaves are no longer willing to work (in the loosest sense) for them, these parasites will either go bust or improve their attitudes
I can't be the only one thats had to listen to some idiot explain that 'The industry can only survive this way' and 'when I started we had to eat our own clothes and were thankful if we were allowed to sweep the hangar let alone fly'. Perhaps those still living in the dark ages should return there.
I really don't miss that sort of cr@p. Its a long hard slog, but for some worth it at the end. If, one day I become CFI/CP and I'm no better feel free to form an orderly queue and give me the slapping I'll deserve
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Originally Posted by lady in red
When I was doing PPL work I was paid £15 retainer per day and £12.50 per flying hour.....
By quoting these figures, do you mean you actually earn (roughly):
£15*300 days= £4500 + 700 hours*12.50 = 8750 ? Grand total of £13250 a year (rough estimate)? Is this before or after tax?
Having considered myself going down the instructor route for a while, this is not very encouraging, above all when you have more than that amount of debt (CPL/IR) to repay!!!
Thanks for your replies.
FNav
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Why we are not paid more??
Fancy Navigator
Actually it was worse than that as the £15 per day only related to 20 days a month so the other way of looking at it if you want to work 30 days a month is £300 a month retainer and max PPL hours I ever did in a year was about 550 total. You do not need an IR to be an instructor so my advice to the prospective instructor would be - why not do the instructor rating instead and save the money on the IR until you have a significant amount of experience under your belt?
I actually agree with Flingingwings' post about not just valuing yourself but being valued. It is not just about the employer valuing you, but the whole of the industry has to value instructors. They simply do not. We are the most valuable part of the pilot chain because it is through our good training that the basic skills and habits are instilled in the future airline pilot or instructor, yet we are treated like the lowest form of the food chain. It is virtually impossible to undo sloppily taught habits and disciplines and it is the accident statistics that reflect shoddy teaching practices - namely failure to understand the importance of use of carb heat, inability to calculate fuel consumption, weight and balance, field length required etc.
We have, however, to earn and deserve the accolade of professionals and in order to do that we ought to pay attention to everything, even our spelling and grammar in these posts, as this reflects on our own self-respect, attitude to standards and communication ability. I must say I despair of the appalling grammar and spelling on these Fora (plural of Forum as data is the plural of datum) - it clearly reflects the lack of attention to detail displayed by the authors.
Actually it was worse than that as the £15 per day only related to 20 days a month so the other way of looking at it if you want to work 30 days a month is £300 a month retainer and max PPL hours I ever did in a year was about 550 total. You do not need an IR to be an instructor so my advice to the prospective instructor would be - why not do the instructor rating instead and save the money on the IR until you have a significant amount of experience under your belt?
I actually agree with Flingingwings' post about not just valuing yourself but being valued. It is not just about the employer valuing you, but the whole of the industry has to value instructors. They simply do not. We are the most valuable part of the pilot chain because it is through our good training that the basic skills and habits are instilled in the future airline pilot or instructor, yet we are treated like the lowest form of the food chain. It is virtually impossible to undo sloppily taught habits and disciplines and it is the accident statistics that reflect shoddy teaching practices - namely failure to understand the importance of use of carb heat, inability to calculate fuel consumption, weight and balance, field length required etc.
We have, however, to earn and deserve the accolade of professionals and in order to do that we ought to pay attention to everything, even our spelling and grammar in these posts, as this reflects on our own self-respect, attitude to standards and communication ability. I must say I despair of the appalling grammar and spelling on these Fora (plural of Forum as data is the plural of datum) - it clearly reflects the lack of attention to detail displayed by the authors.
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Originally Posted by lady in red
Fancy Navigator
Actually it was worse than that as the £15 per day only related to 20 days a month so the other way of looking at it if you want to work 30 days a month is £300 a month retainer and max PPL hours I ever did in a year was about 550 total...
Actually it was worse than that as the £15 per day only related to 20 days a month so the other way of looking at it if you want to work 30 days a month is £300 a month retainer and max PPL hours I ever did in a year was about 550 total...
Would make a big difference!
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It depends how you look at your small pay packet!
The instructors slice is a fairly large slice of a very small pie, I'm not condoning it just trying to justify it, it seems to boil down to the marketable price of a flying lesson, at any level of training, from the trial lesson/air experience flight through to commercial/IR training. If you work backwards from the retail price of any training flight the money is all spoken for. Insurance, capital investment/ finance, maintenance, lifed components, FUEL!, approvals/infrastructure etc.....
Engineers are in a similar position (albeit they can mend when the viz is 200m) the retail cost of aircraft maintenance/repair is low £30-£50/ hour retail the engineer/fitter again gets a fairly large slice of a small pie, anywhere from national minimum for a new starter to £20/hour for a licensed hard worker.....
The obvious answer would be to double the price of everything and we could all have a well deserved pay rise and do a lot less flying as another large amount of pilot training is lost to overseas providers!
Where’s that old bone dome.....
The instructors slice is a fairly large slice of a very small pie, I'm not condoning it just trying to justify it, it seems to boil down to the marketable price of a flying lesson, at any level of training, from the trial lesson/air experience flight through to commercial/IR training. If you work backwards from the retail price of any training flight the money is all spoken for. Insurance, capital investment/ finance, maintenance, lifed components, FUEL!, approvals/infrastructure etc.....
Engineers are in a similar position (albeit they can mend when the viz is 200m) the retail cost of aircraft maintenance/repair is low £30-£50/ hour retail the engineer/fitter again gets a fairly large slice of a small pie, anywhere from national minimum for a new starter to £20/hour for a licensed hard worker.....
The obvious answer would be to double the price of everything and we could all have a well deserved pay rise and do a lot less flying as another large amount of pilot training is lost to overseas providers!
Where’s that old bone dome.....
I get paid £0.00 per hour for flight instruction.
I teach on the ground for free.
I charge that miserable fat barsteward Gordon-the-grasping 40p per mile for any mileage involved with anything to do with being a UK/FE PPL.
I do charge for Flight Examining - at the going rate. It covers the cost of 6-monthly medicals and my revalidations - but that's about all.
I charge nothing for ground exams or debriefs.
I have had a career in aviation and now I'm helping others to do the same.
I teach on the ground for free.
I charge that miserable fat barsteward Gordon-the-grasping 40p per mile for any mileage involved with anything to do with being a UK/FE PPL.
I do charge for Flight Examining - at the going rate. It covers the cost of 6-monthly medicals and my revalidations - but that's about all.
I charge nothing for ground exams or debriefs.
I have had a career in aviation and now I'm helping others to do the same.
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I know a few instructors who charge the same £0.00! This upsets many instructors who do it as a living but I know a few flying schools/ clubs that would probably not be around if it was not for dedicated people giving up a day in there weekend for the last 10 + years!
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im amazed at some of the comments on this subject. shocked at the rate of pay of some FI,s.
think that some employers are skating on thin ice re self employed staff.
mr brown has made it plain that any person attending a regular employer/place of work is an employee, and is not self employed.
making yourself a limited company and hiring out yourself, (in effect a manpower agency), just wont wash in these situations.
if it was your own aircraft then that would probably be ok though.
still cant believe my local plumber makes 2x/3x the money a FI does!
and a kitchen fitter near me, earns 50k per annum!
ps. they both turn work away!
pps. i earn more than some of you, (part time computer engineer).
think that some employers are skating on thin ice re self employed staff.
mr brown has made it plain that any person attending a regular employer/place of work is an employee, and is not self employed.
making yourself a limited company and hiring out yourself, (in effect a manpower agency), just wont wash in these situations.
if it was your own aircraft then that would probably be ok though.
still cant believe my local plumber makes 2x/3x the money a FI does!
and a kitchen fitter near me, earns 50k per annum!
ps. they both turn work away!
pps. i earn more than some of you, (part time computer engineer).
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A while back, I posted some information regarding a Status check which is being carried out by HM Revenue and Customs.
The club at which I work (Sherburn), is being assessed by HMRC in order to see whether it is complying with current regulation wrt employment of its flying instructors.
This has been going on for about 18 months, now.
I have been informed by HMRC that I am to be regarded as an employee... as are all of my colleagues. I understand that the club's directors are challenging the assessment that has been made. This means that the case will be presented to a body which is called the Revenue Commission ( I think). The opinion of this Commission is legally enforceable, I understand.
The implications of this decision may well be nation-wide, so it is very important.
I have been put under some pressure to help to make a case FOR self-employment. So far, I have refused. I guess that, when the dust settles, I will find myself a casualty.
I've read the comments which have been posted. It's clear that many instructors are distressed by their working conditions. IMHO, the removal of the "self-employment" loophole would be a major step in advancing the instructors' lot.
At present, there is a complete imbalance of power between the school' owners and the instructors. Often, I think, this leads to exploitation of the latter. This is most certainly my experience.
Further, this imbalance does nothing to promote responsible flying and instruction....at my school, briefings are rare...only Hobbs hours really count. The result is that most students are quite poorly prepared for their Skill Tests, in terms of procedural skills, rather than handling skills. Most of us teach down to a price, I think.
Commercial pressures also are brought to bear upon examiners. One external examiner of my acquaintance was recently collared by the director of a flying club and asked to facilitate the club's flying hours by being more lenient on flight tests. The implication, of course, is that, "if you want to examine here, you'll make sure that our candidates pass their Skill Tests".
BEagle, I am really saddened to hear that you instruct for free, thereby weakening the position of all the instructors who are trying to scratch a living. I'll wager that, when you were sitting on your flight deck, you would have been up in arms had someone offered to do your job for no pay. You could take the money and donate it to a worthy cause, if your conscience troubles you.
bogbeagle
The club at which I work (Sherburn), is being assessed by HMRC in order to see whether it is complying with current regulation wrt employment of its flying instructors.
This has been going on for about 18 months, now.
I have been informed by HMRC that I am to be regarded as an employee... as are all of my colleagues. I understand that the club's directors are challenging the assessment that has been made. This means that the case will be presented to a body which is called the Revenue Commission ( I think). The opinion of this Commission is legally enforceable, I understand.
The implications of this decision may well be nation-wide, so it is very important.
I have been put under some pressure to help to make a case FOR self-employment. So far, I have refused. I guess that, when the dust settles, I will find myself a casualty.
I've read the comments which have been posted. It's clear that many instructors are distressed by their working conditions. IMHO, the removal of the "self-employment" loophole would be a major step in advancing the instructors' lot.
At present, there is a complete imbalance of power between the school' owners and the instructors. Often, I think, this leads to exploitation of the latter. This is most certainly my experience.
Further, this imbalance does nothing to promote responsible flying and instruction....at my school, briefings are rare...only Hobbs hours really count. The result is that most students are quite poorly prepared for their Skill Tests, in terms of procedural skills, rather than handling skills. Most of us teach down to a price, I think.
Commercial pressures also are brought to bear upon examiners. One external examiner of my acquaintance was recently collared by the director of a flying club and asked to facilitate the club's flying hours by being more lenient on flight tests. The implication, of course, is that, "if you want to examine here, you'll make sure that our candidates pass their Skill Tests".
BEagle, I am really saddened to hear that you instruct for free, thereby weakening the position of all the instructors who are trying to scratch a living. I'll wager that, when you were sitting on your flight deck, you would have been up in arms had someone offered to do your job for no pay. You could take the money and donate it to a worthy cause, if your conscience troubles you.
bogbeagle
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Originally Posted by bogbeagle
IMHO, the removal of the "self-employment" loophole would be a major step in advancing the instructors' lot
As regards instructors flying for free, it's an inevitable part of the industry I fear. But charging nothing for instructing while at the same time setting your instructing/examining expenses against tax does sound rather like having your cake and eating it.
NS
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I, like many instructors am self-employed. There is no way I could be considered an employee. I choose where and when I accept work. I provide my own tools of the trade ( charts, approach plates, etc ). I pay for all my medicals, revalidation flight tests etc. I am vat registered and charge vat on all my invoices. I also decide how much I charge per hour, or day, and what expenses I pass on as a charge.
Anyway, its how you work that determines whether or not you are self employed or an employee. It is not determined by the type of work you do; which in this case is instructing
Anyway, its how you work that determines whether or not you are self employed or an employee. It is not determined by the type of work you do; which in this case is instructing
There are a number of "tests" used to determine whether someone is self-employed; these include: control of what work you do and when you do it, how the work is done, who corrects errors, whether you provide your own equipment (aircraft, headset, charts, instructional gizzmos), who pays for maintenance of ratings and medicals, who finds a replacement if you are unable to work (illness, etc), and several others. By careful use of these "tests" it should be possible for people who genuinely are self-employed to prove it.
Maybe one (slightly devious?) scheme would be for a school to provide a loan to the instructor so that they could part-own an aircraft and therefore provide some of their own equipment - that would need some careful preparation.
Bogbeagle
I'm always surprised at the "us and them" attitude that some people perpetuate - in most industries this dissappeared decades ago and, if there are areas of the flying training industry where it still exists, it needs to be beaten to death. We all need to help with this. Organisations always work better when people work as a team and understand each others viewpoints - this benefits everyone.
BTW, I agree with your point about charging.
HFD
Maybe one (slightly devious?) scheme would be for a school to provide a loan to the instructor so that they could part-own an aircraft and therefore provide some of their own equipment - that would need some careful preparation.
Bogbeagle
I'm always surprised at the "us and them" attitude that some people perpetuate - in most industries this dissappeared decades ago and, if there are areas of the flying training industry where it still exists, it needs to be beaten to death. We all need to help with this. Organisations always work better when people work as a team and understand each others viewpoints - this benefits everyone.
BTW, I agree with your point about charging.
HFD
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I think I'm doing pretty well. I get £30 retainer, paid for supervisory hours (drinking coffee on the ground while some solo student scrapes around the circuit), £22 quid an hour and only PPL work. Usually log 8 hours per day (if destroyed at the end of it).
Took just under £850 for a week's work recently. Wouldn't necessarily recommend it as a business model for a flight school though...
Took just under £850 for a week's work recently. Wouldn't necessarily recommend it as a business model for a flight school though...
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August....as good as it gets.
Dude: It looks like you've had a pretty good summer. However, autumn now seems to be upon us.. Oh well; we've had a pretty good run of weather.
This calendar month I've flown 58 hours, had a weeks holiday, and made £2000 before tax, etc. I can't really complain.
Oh well; we've had a pretty good run of weather.This calendar month I've flown 58 hours, had a weeks holiday, and made £2000 before tax, etc. I can't really complain.
Last edited by Esperanza; 31st Aug 2006 at 18:50.
