Stalling
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Stalling
Flight Training News Pg 13 discusses an accident involving a student and his instructor whereby he was teaching stall recovery and unfortunately didn't recover from a spin.
The AAIB have made a safety recommendation that 'oscillatory stalling' is not included in any flight exercises during flight training.
Oscillatory stalling is described as 'holding the aircraft in the stall using maintained back pressure on the control column when leads to a nodding motion or 'oscillating' pitching movement. With appropriate rudder inputs to control any wing drop this could lead to a spin.
My question is this:
Flight exercises on stalling include entries, symptoms and characteristics of being stalled. In a PA28, the nose nod or 'oscillatory pitching movement' is a symptom of the stall.
In order for students to experience how this feels and therefore be able to recover, I also allow students to enter a stall and hold a stall with maintained back pressure before they recover, keeping the aircraft in balance with light inputs to the rudder and alierons kept neutral. Flight Training News also appear to have spoken to a number of instructors where this practise is regarded as common place.
Are the AAIB saying that holding an aircraft in a deep stall for students to experience its effects and subsequent recovery should be stopped as it is not safe practise due to being close to the ingredients of a spin ?
At what stage approaching the stall do you therefore allow a student to recover ? Incipient or actually stalled ?
I would be interested in other instructors thoughts !!
The AAIB have made a safety recommendation that 'oscillatory stalling' is not included in any flight exercises during flight training.
Oscillatory stalling is described as 'holding the aircraft in the stall using maintained back pressure on the control column when leads to a nodding motion or 'oscillating' pitching movement. With appropriate rudder inputs to control any wing drop this could lead to a spin.
My question is this:
Flight exercises on stalling include entries, symptoms and characteristics of being stalled. In a PA28, the nose nod or 'oscillatory pitching movement' is a symptom of the stall.
In order for students to experience how this feels and therefore be able to recover, I also allow students to enter a stall and hold a stall with maintained back pressure before they recover, keeping the aircraft in balance with light inputs to the rudder and alierons kept neutral. Flight Training News also appear to have spoken to a number of instructors where this practise is regarded as common place.
Are the AAIB saying that holding an aircraft in a deep stall for students to experience its effects and subsequent recovery should be stopped as it is not safe practise due to being close to the ingredients of a spin ?
At what stage approaching the stall do you therefore allow a student to recover ? Incipient or actually stalled ?
I would be interested in other instructors thoughts !!
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TurboJ
The recommendation was about holding it in a stall
If you enter a fully developed stall and recover after experiencing the sensations of a fully stalled aircraft then fine
The recommendation was to avoid holding the stick back and maintaining the stall (which I know a lot of instructors do as a routine thing).
Probably more likely to inadvertantly spin if practicing the latter
The recommendation was about holding it in a stall
If you enter a fully developed stall and recover after experiencing the sensations of a fully stalled aircraft then fine
The recommendation was to avoid holding the stick back and maintaining the stall (which I know a lot of instructors do as a routine thing).
Probably more likely to inadvertantly spin if practicing the latter
None whatever! If you use rudder for anything other than maintaining balance during a stall, you are inviting a spin. 'Stopping wing drop' or, even worse, 'picking up a wing with rudder' is an archaic nonsense which should have been stamped on years ago.
Also, never let a student hold the a/c in the stall unless you are doing so to demonstrate light pre-stall buffet management if your a/c type has such a characteristic.
The student is learning to recognise and recover from the stall with minimum height loss. You show him (with him following through) the identification of the fully developed stall - buffet, nose drop, wing drop, high RoD, nodding dog or whatever, then tell him that any one of those is an indication of a fully developed stall and he should recover when he recognises any of those stall identifications.
I don't use 'signs' and 'symptoms' ever since medical stuents commented that this was bolleaux. So now it's stall warnings (keep going and I'm going to stall, idiot!) and stall identifications (I warned you, you didn't listen and now I bloody well HAVE stalled like wot I told you I was going to!).
Also, never let a student hold the a/c in the stall unless you are doing so to demonstrate light pre-stall buffet management if your a/c type has such a characteristic.
The student is learning to recognise and recover from the stall with minimum height loss. You show him (with him following through) the identification of the fully developed stall - buffet, nose drop, wing drop, high RoD, nodding dog or whatever, then tell him that any one of those is an indication of a fully developed stall and he should recover when he recognises any of those stall identifications.
I don't use 'signs' and 'symptoms' ever since medical stuents commented that this was bolleaux. So now it's stall warnings (keep going and I'm going to stall, idiot!) and stall identifications (I warned you, you didn't listen and now I bloody well HAVE stalled like wot I told you I was going to!).
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BEagle
Succinctly put. I was hoping that someone would quickly pounce on the "pick up the wing with rudder" old wives' tale.
Have to confess to some disappointment at the alacrity of your response, though. I expected the "rudder" proponents to jump to its defence. I s'pose that thread is done and dusted now.
Succinctly put. I was hoping that someone would quickly pounce on the "pick up the wing with rudder" old wives' tale.
Have to confess to some disappointment at the alacrity of your response, though. I expected the "rudder" proponents to jump to its defence. I s'pose that thread is done and dusted now.
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Originally Posted by bogbeagle
BEagle
Succinctly put. I was hoping that someone would quickly pounce on the "pick up the wing with rudder" old wives' tale.
Have to confess to some disappointment at the alacrity of your response, though. I expected the "rudder" proponents to jump to its defence. I s'pose that thread is done and dusted now.
Succinctly put. I was hoping that someone would quickly pounce on the "pick up the wing with rudder" old wives' tale.
Have to confess to some disappointment at the alacrity of your response, though. I expected the "rudder" proponents to jump to its defence. I s'pose that thread is done and dusted now.
so Aerlion is better to lift the downgoing wing ?
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Recover not maintain stall
The point here is teach the students to recover from the stall but NOT to teach him to sustain it - you want to limit height loss
(Full Aileron control will be possible when the recovery is effected)
(Full Aileron control will be possible when the recovery is effected)
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hmm, assuming every stall occurs in a benign and balanced state (i.e little or no yaw or +/- gz), then the aileron would suffice.
what about unbalanced, a turn, any significant yaw, either wing going south, (obviously so) , in that case using aileron will only accelerate the "south" going wing, whether erect or inverted an to be honest, you really have to begin using your feet at that stage. (i.e step on the ball) which is not really "using rudder to pick up the wing" , all you are doing is kicking her around, removing the yaw, so a modicum of stick fwd/bwd as the case may be moves you away from the stall-departure zone
Not sure personally about the deep (mush) stall in a pa-series, but it would certainly give a student confidence, if they wish to be cpl's then surely they want to explore all the facets of an aircraft characteristics ? (from a safe height I may add)
what about unbalanced, a turn, any significant yaw, either wing going south, (obviously so) , in that case using aileron will only accelerate the "south" going wing, whether erect or inverted an to be honest, you really have to begin using your feet at that stage. (i.e step on the ball) which is not really "using rudder to pick up the wing" , all you are doing is kicking her around, removing the yaw, so a modicum of stick fwd/bwd as the case may be moves you away from the stall-departure zone
Not sure personally about the deep (mush) stall in a pa-series, but it would certainly give a student confidence, if they wish to be cpl's then surely they want to explore all the facets of an aircraft characteristics ? (from a safe height I may add)
Last edited by 7gcbc; 31st Mar 2006 at 08:02.
Anyone 'kicking her around' at low speed should themselves receive a sound kicking!
Standard Stall Recovery:
FULL POWER and Control Column centrally forward until Stall Identification ceases.
Then (and only then) level the wings.
Then recover from the descent.
DO NOT USE RUDDER FOR ANY OTHER PURPOSE THAN TO MAINTAIN BALANCE!
Standard Stall Recovery:
FULL POWER and Control Column centrally forward until Stall Identification ceases.
Then (and only then) level the wings.
Then recover from the descent.
DO NOT USE RUDDER FOR ANY OTHER PURPOSE THAN TO MAINTAIN BALANCE!
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Beagle
I was criticised on a check flight with an FIC for the order in which I explained standard stall recovery.
I was told it should be control column forward to reduce the angle of attack of the wings and then apply full power.
Reason ? The effect of applying full power causes the nose to raise which increases the angle of attack, thereby prolonging the stall !!
Therefore standard stall recovery:
Relax the back pressure to reduce the angle of attack of the wings.
Apply full power.
Maintain aircraft in balance by controlling yaw with rudder.
Once speed increases past Vx, select a climbing attitude.
Check carb heat to off, unless selected off as airspeed was reducing.
To quote a legendary CFI, instructing is all about terminology ! I realise its being pedantic......however that was the critique of a recent check flight
TJ
FULL POWER and Control Column centrally forward until Stall Identification ceases.
I was told it should be control column forward to reduce the angle of attack of the wings and then apply full power.
Reason ? The effect of applying full power causes the nose to raise which increases the angle of attack, thereby prolonging the stall !!
Therefore standard stall recovery:
Relax the back pressure to reduce the angle of attack of the wings.
Apply full power.
Maintain aircraft in balance by controlling yaw with rudder.
Once speed increases past Vx, select a climbing attitude.
Check carb heat to off, unless selected off as airspeed was reducing.
To quote a legendary CFI, instructing is all about terminology ! I realise its being pedantic......however that was the critique of a recent check flight
TJ
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Originally Posted by BEagle
Anyone 'kicking her around' at low speed should themselves receive a sound kicking!
Standard Stall Recovery:
FULL POWER and Control Column centrally forward until Stall Identification ceases.
Then (and only then) level the wings.
Then recover from the descent.
DO NOT USE RUDDER FOR ANY OTHER PURPOSE THAN TO MAINTAIN BALANCE!
Standard Stall Recovery:
FULL POWER and Control Column centrally forward until Stall Identification ceases.
Then (and only then) level the wings.
Then recover from the descent.
DO NOT USE RUDDER FOR ANY OTHER PURPOSE THAN TO MAINTAIN BALANCE!
some of us don't fly straight and level all the time.
oh, and adding full power as you mention, would in some aircraft (because of the low speed and associated torque) roll you on your back.
what then ?
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Slow Flight
Zgcbc...............
Anyway going back to the original issue it seems a good idea to
keep things simple.
We are teaching a student to fly.
We KIS - Keep it simple.
Hence Ex 10A Slow flight
Ex 10B Stalling
This is stall prevention
and stall recovery .... and thats what this thread is all about
Keep it simple and there will be no problems OK
'Standard Stall Recovery'
1 Stick centrally forward to unstall the wing
2 Full power to reduce height loss
3 Prevent/reduce wing drop if it occurs with opposite rudder
4 When all signs of the stall have ceased nose to the horizon then climb away if necessary when speed increases
1. Centrally forward to reduce chance of wing drop possibly leading to a spin but PRIMARILY TO REDUCE THE ANGLE OF ATTACK which is why you are stalling in the first place
2 Full power to reduce height loss. - student not convinced? show them a stall and don't use power to recover - amazing! the aircraft still recovers just loses more hight
3 Use the secondary effect of rudder to prevent the wing dropping further as trying to use aileron will only increase the angle o attack further and lead to further wing drop etc
4 Nose to horizon when stall has ceased
Anyway going back to the original issue it seems a good idea to
keep things simple.
We are teaching a student to fly.
We KIS - Keep it simple.
Hence Ex 10A Slow flight
Ex 10B Stalling
This is stall prevention
and stall recovery .... and thats what this thread is all about
Keep it simple and there will be no problems OK
'Standard Stall Recovery'
1 Stick centrally forward to unstall the wing
2 Full power to reduce height loss
3 Prevent/reduce wing drop if it occurs with opposite rudder
4 When all signs of the stall have ceased nose to the horizon then climb away if necessary when speed increases
1. Centrally forward to reduce chance of wing drop possibly leading to a spin but PRIMARILY TO REDUCE THE ANGLE OF ATTACK which is why you are stalling in the first place
2 Full power to reduce height loss. - student not convinced? show them a stall and don't use power to recover - amazing! the aircraft still recovers just loses more hight
3 Use the secondary effect of rudder to prevent the wing dropping further as trying to use aileron will only increase the angle o attack further and lead to further wing drop etc
4 Nose to horizon when stall has ceased
Last edited by RVR800; 31st Mar 2006 at 12:28.
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Often hear instructors talk about "teaching stalling" when we should be teaching NOT to stall.
Have also heard an instructor brief a stude that the first thing you should do if you get a wing drop is apply "full opposite rudder"
Turns out one of the schools round here really does teach thier instructor trainees this! They also send their studes to "practice stalling" solo
The main thing is to reduce angle of attack, I tell them not to apply power until you have at least 60 knots (PA38, PA28) hopefully by this ex they should be able to recognise the "feel" of the airspeed without having to look at the ASI. Applying power too early will induce yaw and could lead to a wing drop. Secondary importance of power is shown by the fact that gliders can recover from stalls, too!
Have also heard an instructor brief a stude that the first thing you should do if you get a wing drop is apply "full opposite rudder"
Turns out one of the schools round here really does teach thier instructor trainees this! They also send their studes to "practice stalling" solo The main thing is to reduce angle of attack, I tell them not to apply power until you have at least 60 knots (PA38, PA28) hopefully by this ex they should be able to recognise the "feel" of the airspeed without having to look at the ASI. Applying power too early will induce yaw and could lead to a wing drop. Secondary importance of power is shown by the fact that gliders can recover from stalls, too!
TurboJ, I respectfully contend that the FIC instructor was an utter ar$e! If you do not control the a/c attitude and balance when applying full power, then stall recovery may well be delayed. Delaying application of full power will certainly increase the height loss during recovery.
Charlie Foxtrot India - maybe it's some of your ex-students to whom we've had to re-teach stall recovery. Why wait until 60KIAS? Teach them to maintain balance and to control the attitude correctly when applying full power!
And that old wives' tale of full power at low speed causing a/c to roll onto their backs is a myth with certificated aircraft.
Charlie Foxtrot India - maybe it's some of your ex-students to whom we've had to re-teach stall recovery. Why wait until 60KIAS? Teach them to maintain balance and to control the attitude correctly when applying full power!
And that old wives' tale of full power at low speed causing a/c to roll onto their backs is a myth with certificated aircraft.
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It's clear from the thread that opinion varies quite widely. Since we can't all be correct in our methodology, it must be the case that lots of students are being badly taught.
I've heard it said that, in general in the UK, stall-spin awareness is an area in which FIs do let down their students. I've certainly met chaps (not FIs) who believe that they can recover from a stall solely with the application of power.........and others who engage in "now-legendary" frantic rudder-paddling in an attempt to prevent any wing drop. In my experience, very few PPLs are comfortable with flight at the lower speeds......so landings are bound to be a bit of a trial, aren't they?
I know that at my school, the 2 hours stall-spin awareness is often severely curtailed and the exercises are skimped in order to rush into the circuit. Appropriate adjustments are then made to the student' records in order to fulfil the criteria for licence issue.
I'd be surprised if my experiences are unusual.
The wider issue is, I think, one of standards. There does prevail, in some schools, a propensity to teach down to a price, rather than up to a standard. This is facilitated by the system of examination for the PPL' syllabus. Far better, in my opinion, to adopt a system more akin to CAAFU.....where the examiner has no commercial interest in the student's outcome.
If an independent examiner regularly found that X's students were complete duffers at low-speed work, there would be an opportunity to address X's deficiencies, I suppose.
Anyone else seen fragrant abuses by "school" examiners? Or perhaps I shouldn't ask.
I've heard it said that, in general in the UK, stall-spin awareness is an area in which FIs do let down their students. I've certainly met chaps (not FIs) who believe that they can recover from a stall solely with the application of power.........and others who engage in "now-legendary" frantic rudder-paddling in an attempt to prevent any wing drop. In my experience, very few PPLs are comfortable with flight at the lower speeds......so landings are bound to be a bit of a trial, aren't they?
I know that at my school, the 2 hours stall-spin awareness is often severely curtailed and the exercises are skimped in order to rush into the circuit. Appropriate adjustments are then made to the student' records in order to fulfil the criteria for licence issue.
I'd be surprised if my experiences are unusual.
The wider issue is, I think, one of standards. There does prevail, in some schools, a propensity to teach down to a price, rather than up to a standard. This is facilitated by the system of examination for the PPL' syllabus. Far better, in my opinion, to adopt a system more akin to CAAFU.....where the examiner has no commercial interest in the student's outcome.
If an independent examiner regularly found that X's students were complete duffers at low-speed work, there would be an opportunity to address X's deficiencies, I suppose.
Anyone else seen fragrant abuses by "school" examiners? Or perhaps I shouldn't ask.