Stalling
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No worries Alogan. Thankfully it sounds like your stalls were less eventful than mine.
Despite the early stall-warning 5kts prior, it's still difficult to predict - or recognise at first - exactly when the stall kicks in. Unfortunately I wasn't quite S&L when we got the bugger to stall!
I'm sure I'll get to grips with them soon. Just need time, practice & more bottle. Damn that bloody wing-drop!
Despite the early stall-warning 5kts prior, it's still difficult to predict - or recognise at first - exactly when the stall kicks in. Unfortunately I wasn't quite S&L when we got the bugger to stall!
I'm sure I'll get to grips with them soon. Just need time, practice & more bottle. Damn that bloody wing-drop!
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The wing drop
1972
Don't let the 'wing drop' as it is called worry you so much. Current Certificates of Airworthiness require that the wing shouldn't initially drop by more than 30 degrees which is the normall turning angle of bank used. However if nothing is done the further effects of yaw leading to further roll and so on takes place.
An interesting experience for you if your Instructor agrees is to simply allow this to happen but simultaneously lower the nose to gain speed. the wing should very quickly pick up but will not increase in angle very much. You will not have recovered with minimum height loss but you will gain some confidence in your aeroplane to then accept the 'Standard Stall Recovery' technique training you are receiving.
Don't let the 'wing drop' as it is called worry you so much. Current Certificates of Airworthiness require that the wing shouldn't initially drop by more than 30 degrees which is the normall turning angle of bank used. However if nothing is done the further effects of yaw leading to further roll and so on takes place.
An interesting experience for you if your Instructor agrees is to simply allow this to happen but simultaneously lower the nose to gain speed. the wing should very quickly pick up but will not increase in angle very much. You will not have recovered with minimum height loss but you will gain some confidence in your aeroplane to then accept the 'Standard Stall Recovery' technique training you are receiving.
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Excellent, thanks for that homeguard. Your advice is noted, and I'll run your suggestion past the FI.
He thought we exceeded 30deg AoB as I'd wrongly used aileron to correct... like a plonker! We both agreed I needed to give stalls a rest for an hour or two just to build confidence in other areas (successful so far) before going back and finishing stalls off.
I'm very much a believer in the phrases "get right back on that horse" and "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" (!) and you're right, I must experience it again (with said technique) to become confident in the aircraft & the controls.
Will post back with news on how it goes. Thanks again homie for the suggestion and moral support.
Apologies to others for hijacking.
He thought we exceeded 30deg AoB as I'd wrongly used aileron to correct... like a plonker! We both agreed I needed to give stalls a rest for an hour or two just to build confidence in other areas (successful so far) before going back and finishing stalls off.
I'm very much a believer in the phrases "get right back on that horse" and "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" (!) and you're right, I must experience it again (with said technique) to become confident in the aircraft & the controls.
Will post back with news on how it goes. Thanks again homie for the suggestion and moral support.
Apologies to others for hijacking.
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Homeguard, couldn't agree more, old chap.
CofAs include stall performance and as said above,
...but the emphasis there should be on the word initial. Unless the wing is unstalled without delay, then that initial wingdrop could become further wingdrop which might make some PPL eyes water somewhat, at the least 
(see thread on spinning from finals turn)
Trying to pick up the wing (as prescribed above) will not unstall the wing and therefore there will still be a chance of the wing dropping again.
If you simply action the stall recovery with simultaneous full power and forward stick until unstalled then there is zero chance of further wingdrop. Is it really that difficult?
Uncle G
CofAs include stall performance and as said above,
Current Certificates of Airworthiness require that the wing shouldn't initially drop by more than 30 degrees
(see thread on spinning from finals turn)Trying to pick up the wing (as prescribed above) will not unstall the wing and therefore there will still be a chance of the wing dropping again.
If you simply action the stall recovery with simultaneous full power and forward stick until unstalled then there is zero chance of further wingdrop. Is it really that difficult?
Uncle G
And don't forget that it's at it's certification. A thirty year old Cessena 152 Aerobat will probably not have the same stall characteristics as the originally certified airframe.
I one instructed at a school which had 15 identical but very old airframes. One aircraft rolled to about 75 degrees to the left in a straight 1g stall.
I one instructed at a school which had 15 identical but very old airframes. One aircraft rolled to about 75 degrees to the left in a straight 1g stall.
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Originally Posted by Dan Winterland
I one instructed at a school which had 15 identical but very old airframes. One aircraft rolled to about 75 degrees to the left in a straight 1g stall.
Originally Posted by Dan Winterland
I find this thread very illuminating. People are talking about picking up wings with rudder and 112hp engines causing the aircraft to rotate around it's longitudinal axis with the controls having no effect ....
Aerilons would indeed be fun then, espec in a 152 sans signifigant dihedral don't you think ?
What would happen? Very little actually. The aircraft's prop rotated the other way and it only had 145HP. (if I mention it's a taildragger - that should tell you what it was!)
If you moved the control column centrally forward until the buffet stoped and simultaneously applying full power while preventing further yaw with rudder, and only when the wings were unstalled (i.e. no buffet present) level the wings with aileron and then pitch to the level attitude there was no problem. This is the standard stall recovery tought by that organisation which is the same throughout the world - more or less. And if the prop had been rotaing the other way, the torque reaction would have made very little difference to the amount of roll at the stall.
For anyone also reading this, wing drop at stall is not usually a problem. It may be alarming, however, you must not attempt to correct it until the wing is unstalled. Any attempt to correct it while you still have buffet, with ailerons or with rudder will probably delay the recovery or initiate a spin. I emphasise again that ailerons should only be used once the wings are unstalled.
There is little chance a 145HP engine is going to rotate the airframe around the prop at the stall. Prop slipstream will have more of an effect and this should be easily controllable with the rudder. The most powerful prop aircraft I have instructed on had a 1200hp engine and there was no 'torque' problems with this type either.
The airframe I mentioned was a bit of a rogue. The rigging had been checked on numerous occaisions but the wing still dropped. (This type typically had a 30 degree wing drop anyway). We tried to avoid using this airframe for the early exercises as the roll at the stalll would be alarming. But it was ideal for more advanced students. The instinct would be to apply aileron, the downgoing wing would have it's angle of attack increased, the stall on this wing would deepen and this aircraft would autorotate. A useful learning exercise, bearing in mind this was a military school and the students would be flying aircraft with much less benign handling than the Chipmunk later in their career (Ooops, gave it away!).
I see from your profile that you fly taildraggers from Sydney. Are you also Happyjack260?
If you moved the control column centrally forward until the buffet stoped and simultaneously applying full power while preventing further yaw with rudder, and only when the wings were unstalled (i.e. no buffet present) level the wings with aileron and then pitch to the level attitude there was no problem. This is the standard stall recovery tought by that organisation which is the same throughout the world - more or less. And if the prop had been rotaing the other way, the torque reaction would have made very little difference to the amount of roll at the stall.
For anyone also reading this, wing drop at stall is not usually a problem. It may be alarming, however, you must not attempt to correct it until the wing is unstalled. Any attempt to correct it while you still have buffet, with ailerons or with rudder will probably delay the recovery or initiate a spin. I emphasise again that ailerons should only be used once the wings are unstalled.
There is little chance a 145HP engine is going to rotate the airframe around the prop at the stall. Prop slipstream will have more of an effect and this should be easily controllable with the rudder. The most powerful prop aircraft I have instructed on had a 1200hp engine and there was no 'torque' problems with this type either.
The airframe I mentioned was a bit of a rogue. The rigging had been checked on numerous occaisions but the wing still dropped. (This type typically had a 30 degree wing drop anyway). We tried to avoid using this airframe for the early exercises as the roll at the stalll would be alarming. But it was ideal for more advanced students. The instinct would be to apply aileron, the downgoing wing would have it's angle of attack increased, the stall on this wing would deepen and this aircraft would autorotate. A useful learning exercise, bearing in mind this was a military school and the students would be flying aircraft with much less benign handling than the Chipmunk later in their career (Ooops, gave it away!).
I see from your profile that you fly taildraggers from Sydney. Are you also Happyjack260?
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Originally Posted by Dan Winterland
I see from your profile that you fly taildraggers from Sydney. Are you also Happyjack260?
BTW, anyone in the Sydney area want to do a formation rating in a Pitts?
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I've just been doing a few stalls for my PPL.
I found out that even thought the student or the instructor put the aircraft into a stall deliberatly, doesnt mean that it is controlled, after all, if you had the aircraft properly under control it wouldnt stall.
However, when my instructor demonstrated a stall, it went a bit worse then he hoped for, we had a bad and sudden wing drop, recoverable, but still, very fast and sudden.
So when doing stalls especially with flap, be ready for anything. Wing drops can be slightly worse in bad weather conditions.
I found out that even thought the student or the instructor put the aircraft into a stall deliberatly, doesnt mean that it is controlled, after all, if you had the aircraft properly under control it wouldnt stall.
However, when my instructor demonstrated a stall, it went a bit worse then he hoped for, we had a bad and sudden wing drop, recoverable, but still, very fast and sudden.
So when doing stalls especially with flap, be ready for anything. Wing drops can be slightly worse in bad weather conditions.
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Originally Posted by Lewy-
I've just been doing a few stalls for my PPL.
I found out that even thought the student or the instructor put the aircraft into a stall deliberatly, doesnt mean that it is controlled, after all, if you had the aircraft properly under control it wouldnt stall.
I found out that even thought the student or the instructor put the aircraft into a stall deliberatly, doesnt mean that it is controlled, after all, if you had the aircraft properly under control it wouldnt stall.
Examples: Snap (Flick) Roll; Competition spin; falling leaf. All everday stuff for aerobatics pilots.
From the CAA Training Standards Communication 1/2006.
Oscillatory Stalling
In May 2005 an instructor and student were on a training flight when the aircraft was seen to enter a spin and continue spinning until it impacted the ground, killing both occupants. The AAIB investigation stated "Although an unidentified control problem, loose artice or other distraction could not be eliminated as a contributing factor, it is considered that the likely scenario was that the aircraft entered an unintentional spin during an evercise involving "oscillatory stalling".
The term "oscillatory stalling" is not commonly used. No reference could be found in UK flight training publications, by either the AAIB investigators or CAA staff flight examiners. However, from other sources it is understood to describe the practise of maintaining the aircraft in a stalled condition whilst controlling wing drop with rudder.
Two points should be emphasised here: firstly the purpose of the stalling exercises on the PPL syllabus is to ensure that students can recognise the warning signs of the approaching (incipient) stall and the symptoms of the developed stall, and be able to recover safely from incipient and developed stalls. It is not necessary or adviseable, having demonstrated the signs and symptoms, for instructors to hold an aircraft in a developed stall, and students should never be taught to do so for the purposes of this exercise. Secondly, instructors are reminded that the rudder must only be used to maintain balance (prevent yaw) throughout the stalling exercise. The essential components of a spin are wings stalled with yaw and/or roll present. Deliberately inducing yaw with rudder to "pick up" a dropped wing, with the aircraft stalled, is tantamount to setting up for a spin.
Oscillatory Stalling
In May 2005 an instructor and student were on a training flight when the aircraft was seen to enter a spin and continue spinning until it impacted the ground, killing both occupants. The AAIB investigation stated "Although an unidentified control problem, loose artice or other distraction could not be eliminated as a contributing factor, it is considered that the likely scenario was that the aircraft entered an unintentional spin during an evercise involving "oscillatory stalling".
The term "oscillatory stalling" is not commonly used. No reference could be found in UK flight training publications, by either the AAIB investigators or CAA staff flight examiners. However, from other sources it is understood to describe the practise of maintaining the aircraft in a stalled condition whilst controlling wing drop with rudder.
Two points should be emphasised here: firstly the purpose of the stalling exercises on the PPL syllabus is to ensure that students can recognise the warning signs of the approaching (incipient) stall and the symptoms of the developed stall, and be able to recover safely from incipient and developed stalls. It is not necessary or adviseable, having demonstrated the signs and symptoms, for instructors to hold an aircraft in a developed stall, and students should never be taught to do so for the purposes of this exercise. Secondly, instructors are reminded that the rudder must only be used to maintain balance (prevent yaw) throughout the stalling exercise. The essential components of a spin are wings stalled with yaw and/or roll present. Deliberately inducing yaw with rudder to "pick up" a dropped wing, with the aircraft stalled, is tantamount to setting up for a spin.
