Runway directions
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Runway directions
I am flying to an airfield, wind has changed, and I find that the runway at my intended destination (and my diversion airfield) has exceeded my crosswind limits. I am now in need of an alternative diversion airfield with the runway in a suitable direction.
What is the best way of finding a diversion airfield with a suitable runway?
e.g. would an ACT normally have this information available and be prepared offer suggestions or would I have to go to London Information or even 121.5 and would they have this sort of information?
What is the best way of finding a diversion airfield with a suitable runway?
e.g. would an ACT normally have this information available and be prepared offer suggestions or would I have to go to London Information or even 121.5 and would they have this sort of information?
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I don't think there's a definite answer. Certainly try asking on the frequency you are currently using. Many ATCOs, AFISOs and A/G operators are pilots too, and will know their local area very well.
However, if the forecast wind was even close to your cross-wind limits, I would hope that you thought of this before you left and had already planned an alternate? Of course, the wind does sometimes do things which it isn't forecast to do.
London Information would certainly be able to get the information for you, but would quite likely have to look it up, whereas the local ATCOs, etc, are more likely to have local knowledge and know the answer without going to their books.
Not sure that the Instructors forum is the best forum for the question, though: it will get a wider audience in Private Flying, from both instructors and experienced pilots; or you could try posting in the ATC forum for the other point of view. No doubt the moderators will move this thread somewhere else if they think it's appropriate.
FFF
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However, if the forecast wind was even close to your cross-wind limits, I would hope that you thought of this before you left and had already planned an alternate? Of course, the wind does sometimes do things which it isn't forecast to do.
London Information would certainly be able to get the information for you, but would quite likely have to look it up, whereas the local ATCOs, etc, are more likely to have local knowledge and know the answer without going to their books.
Not sure that the Instructors forum is the best forum for the question, though: it will get a wider audience in Private Flying, from both instructors and experienced pilots; or you could try posting in the ATC forum for the other point of view. No doubt the moderators will move this thread somewhere else if they think it's appropriate.
FFF
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Article 52 is pretty definitave:
Pre-flight action by commander of aircraft
52 The commander of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom shall take all
reasonable steps to satisfy himself before the aircraft takes off:
(a) that the flight can safely be made, taking into account the latest information available as to the route and aerodrome to be used, the weather reports and forecasts available and any alternative course of action which can be adopted in case the flight cannot be completed as planned;
Its the Capts responsibility not that of ATC!
Pre-flight action by commander of aircraft
52 The commander of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom shall take all
reasonable steps to satisfy himself before the aircraft takes off:
(a) that the flight can safely be made, taking into account the latest information available as to the route and aerodrome to be used, the weather reports and forecasts available and any alternative course of action which can be adopted in case the flight cannot be completed as planned;
Its the Capts responsibility not that of ATC!
Gizajob
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I don't think Funfly would disagree Whopity.
He did say that both destination and diversion were out of limits. I don't know many - if any - folks who plan a back-up diversion for a weekend outing, so it was a reasonable question. The situation described is pretty low likelyhood in my view and I think asking ground stations for assistance is not a bad idea for the reasons given (plus it allows the pilot to concentrate on aviating and navigating and looking out, which is always nice). As a FISO, I would always try to assist in such a case.
He did say that both destination and diversion were out of limits. I don't know many - if any - folks who plan a back-up diversion for a weekend outing, so it was a reasonable question. The situation described is pretty low likelyhood in my view and I think asking ground stations for assistance is not a bad idea for the reasons given (plus it allows the pilot to concentrate on aviating and navigating and looking out, which is always nice). As a FISO, I would always try to assist in such a case.
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I'm suprised by this post!
A few points.
1) The wind does not change that much during a normal flight. If you fail to check the weather prior to your departure then you have failed in your pre flight planning. The weather, both metar and taf's are freely available on more than one website. Plus, you call the tower at your destination and they are more than happy to give you an up to the minute report, plus any trend that their local knowledge might have detected. If it's looking dicey then fer gawds sake don't set off.
2) In flight, you can monitor the weather at (or near to) you destination via the volmet. The frequency is on your chart. So, if it does turn to poo then you know much earlier rather than overhead you destination with naff all fuel left.
3) As for diversions, again this is your responsibility. You know your own personal limits and that of the aircraft, not some guy in D&D. Do not relinquish any aspect of the safety of the flight. Remember you are the one that signed for the aircraft so it's your responsibility.
4) As for selecting a diversion, go and get yourself a 1 in 250000 chart. These have the orientation of all the hard runways surfaces marked. If the wind has caught you out then just select the nearest hard runway reasonably into wind. Or carry a pooleys in your flight bag. Or better still, check the sodding weather before you set out!
A few points.
1) The wind does not change that much during a normal flight. If you fail to check the weather prior to your departure then you have failed in your pre flight planning. The weather, both metar and taf's are freely available on more than one website. Plus, you call the tower at your destination and they are more than happy to give you an up to the minute report, plus any trend that their local knowledge might have detected. If it's looking dicey then fer gawds sake don't set off.
2) In flight, you can monitor the weather at (or near to) you destination via the volmet. The frequency is on your chart. So, if it does turn to poo then you know much earlier rather than overhead you destination with naff all fuel left.
3) As for diversions, again this is your responsibility. You know your own personal limits and that of the aircraft, not some guy in D&D. Do not relinquish any aspect of the safety of the flight. Remember you are the one that signed for the aircraft so it's your responsibility.
4) As for selecting a diversion, go and get yourself a 1 in 250000 chart. These have the orientation of all the hard runways surfaces marked. If the wind has caught you out then just select the nearest hard runway reasonably into wind. Or carry a pooleys in your flight bag. Or better still, check the sodding weather before you set out!
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The wind does not change that much during a normal flight.
TAF is EGMC 281510Z 281601 32012KT 9999 BKN020 PROB30 TEMPO 1618 33015G27KT 4000 SHRASN BKN014
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I think we're mssing the point here a little.
Funfly said in his original post that he had a diversion, but it had become unsuitable. The question is hypothetical, and it acknowledges that however good your planning, things sometimes don't go according to plan. The question is quite legitimately asking what to do in these circumstances - it already assumes, I think, that all appropriate precautions had been taken during the planning phase, but that this is not sufficient on this hypothetical day.
Gus has an excellent point, btw - UK 1/4million charts show runway directions. Incidentally, US charts all show runway directions too. I've never used a UK 1/4million chart, but I remember finding runway directions very handy on US charts.
FFF
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Funfly said in his original post that he had a diversion, but it had become unsuitable. The question is hypothetical, and it acknowledges that however good your planning, things sometimes don't go according to plan. The question is quite legitimately asking what to do in these circumstances - it already assumes, I think, that all appropriate precautions had been taken during the planning phase, but that this is not sufficient on this hypothetical day.
Gus has an excellent point, btw - UK 1/4million charts show runway directions. Incidentally, US charts all show runway directions too. I've never used a UK 1/4million chart, but I remember finding runway directions very handy on US charts.
FFF
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Other solution, of course, is to practice crosswind landings with an instructor. Most aircraft can be safely landed in well over 20 kts crosswind if technique is good, and one would hope that you wouldn't fly expecting anything near that unless you were either very experienced or training to be an instructor (my FI(R) instructor got us to land in some very hairy conditions. Shows you can get a student safely back even if the weather deteriorates significantly). You therefore have a nice margin for worsening weather.
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SC
My statement perhaps was not clear. I meant to say that the wind does not change much from the forecast during flight. Yes it can swing around as fronts pass but this is reflected in the taf.
I realise now that the original post is indeed hypothetical so i apologise to Funfly if he feels i am being harsh. However, it irks me somewhat as an instructor that people do not plan their flights correctly. And irks me even more that when they make a mistake they don't take control of the situation themselves. Make mistakes and learn from them.
How many times as an instructor do you say to students "You got us in this mess, you get us out" when they are crying that they can't fly an approach/forced landing or whatever the lesson is. And how many times when they realise that your not going to help, do they sort out whatever the problem was in the first place! It's all about building confidence.
Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Here are a list of good sources of wx.
Tafs And Metars
Met Office
AvBrief
Tafs Metars and Notams.
ippc.no (Personal Favourite This One)
General Trend Info
Icelandic Weather Site. Good source of info
Bit Random but has some good bits.
My statement perhaps was not clear. I meant to say that the wind does not change much from the forecast during flight. Yes it can swing around as fronts pass but this is reflected in the taf.
I realise now that the original post is indeed hypothetical so i apologise to Funfly if he feels i am being harsh. However, it irks me somewhat as an instructor that people do not plan their flights correctly. And irks me even more that when they make a mistake they don't take control of the situation themselves. Make mistakes and learn from them.
How many times as an instructor do you say to students "You got us in this mess, you get us out" when they are crying that they can't fly an approach/forced landing or whatever the lesson is. And how many times when they realise that your not going to help, do they sort out whatever the problem was in the first place! It's all about building confidence.
Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Here are a list of good sources of wx.
Tafs And Metars
Met Office
AvBrief
Tafs Metars and Notams.
ippc.no (Personal Favourite This One)
General Trend Info
Icelandic Weather Site. Good source of info
Bit Random but has some good bits.
Jet Blast Rat
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Gus
The wind was forecast to be around 330 when it was strongest, had been 350 and had swung round within an hour to about 260-270. I'd say that was significant!
The wind was forecast to be around 330 when it was strongest, had been 350 and had swung round within an hour to about 260-270. I'd say that was significant!
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Gus - Blimey! That must be the school of nasty instructors. I'm definitely a tyro in the flight instruction game but in most cases I would rather teach them how to 'get out of a mess' than let them flounder and hope they discover it for themselves. If that is a good method, why don't we just strap them in, throw them a copy of Thom 1 and let them get on with it 
Taking control of the situation is right but you can ask for help and still be in control - it's just using available resources. If you don't like the suggestions ATC make about suggested diversions, no one can stop you flying to wherever you want to...
Anyway, another good wx link is www.metbrief.com - scroll a long way down to get to the aviation bits...
Taking control of the situation is right but you can ask for help and still be in control - it's just using available resources. If you don't like the suggestions ATC make about suggested diversions, no one can stop you flying to wherever you want to...
Anyway, another good wx link is www.metbrief.com - scroll a long way down to get to the aviation bits...
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I have taken no offence at the answers as my question was hypothetical. I always do a flight plan and have at least two alternative airfields. I always download the Notams and check temporary restricted areas and I always do a full weather check and get the latest F214's. (and I tell fibs as well!)
As a fairly low hours pilot I simply wondered the best way to find a nearby airfield if runway direction was important and if it ever came to that. My question was - do ATC have this information to hand.
I assume from the responses that this is information that is never actually required in flight iether because the wind virtually never changes or because everyone does very detailed flight pre-planning.
I do carry a Pooley's flight Guide in my cockpit which will always give me airfield frequencies, maybe it's a pity the runway directions are not included - Bob take note!
P.S. You mention Metbrief - what's wrong with our own www.funfly.co.uk ?
As a fairly low hours pilot I simply wondered the best way to find a nearby airfield if runway direction was important and if it ever came to that. My question was - do ATC have this information to hand.
I assume from the responses that this is information that is never actually required in flight iether because the wind virtually never changes or because everyone does very detailed flight pre-planning.
I do carry a Pooley's flight Guide in my cockpit which will always give me airfield frequencies, maybe it's a pity the runway directions are not included - Bob take note!
P.S. You mention Metbrief - what's wrong with our own www.funfly.co.uk ?
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Originally Posted by EGBKFLYER
If that is a good method, why don't we just strap them in, throw them a copy of Thom 1 and let them get on with it
.Anyhoo, i don't class myself quite as a tyrant just yet. Few more years before I hit that grumpy old duffer stage. To defend myself though, I will happily demo any exercise to a student as many times as required. I also know my own personal envelope and never let the student get near to busting it. Apart from those two times the student always has control. Further more, I never put a student in a situation that we have not either discussed or demo'd before. Learning to fly is a series of lessons. And most of these lessons are what not to do. The only way people learn what not to do is to see what happens when they do do it. Human nature after all will compel us to push the button marked "DO NOT PUSH".
So, if someone makes a silly mistake that I have seen them deal with before and I know they can recover from and begins to flap about how I should take control, I will fold my arms, look out of the window and wait for them to either a) recover the situation b) approach the point at which I feel threatened and take control.
I can be tactful and ask "Well, what would you do if I wasn't here?" and others need you to be a bit firmer. Each student has a different way of learning. Horses for courses really.
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Many years ago, my first commercial job was flying night frieght in a Trislander. This A/C's real x-wind limits were not too high. We always flew the same route between two airfields which each had only one runway. I always carried a list of suitable airfields, open at night with their runway directions listed so that in the event of an iffy x-wind developing I could easily select a suitable diversion. But then the old Trislander was so slow you had plenty of time to plan!
P.P.
P.P.
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To actually answer Funfly's question, I always tried to know a enough about a few local airfields, as I was most likely to encounter this near home. When I was in Bournemouth (08/26) at least Southampton (02/20) was always an option if you could persuade them to let you divert. I feel it is less critical now I have more experience, but it is something you might try.
