When teaching the IMC course do you log it as IFR?
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When teaching the IMC course do you log it as IFR?
When teaching the IMC course do you log it towards IFR flight time? Im wondering as I want to instruct the IR course in the near future and how are you meant to gain 800 IFR hours otherwise- in order to teach it; apart from being in an airline.
Thanks,
Marsman
Thanks,
Marsman
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marsman,
You can be IFR in VMC. So in the UK, fly Quadrantals, fly Minimun Heights and file a flight plan if needed. IFR has nothing to do with airlines in this circumstance!
Check ANO Rule 28; Section VI
You can be IFR in VMC. So in the UK, fly Quadrantals, fly Minimun Heights and file a flight plan if needed. IFR has nothing to do with airlines in this circumstance!
Check ANO Rule 28; Section VI
Last edited by Craggenmore; 21st Feb 2006 at 23:11.
Are you a FI with Applied Instrument privileges? Because the 800 hour requirement only applies to standalone IRIs, not to FIs with Applied Instrument privileges.
You will need to meet the requirements stipulated in LASORS H1.4 to remove the 'No Applied Instrument' restrictions from a FI rating; these include achieving 200 hours IFR. However, as you will presumably already hold a IR(A), that will have included at least 50 hours of IF; Instrument Flight time counts as 4 times IFR time, so you will already meet the 200 hours IFR by definition.
You will need to meet the requirements stipulated in LASORS H1.4 to remove the 'No Applied Instrument' restrictions from a FI rating; these include achieving 200 hours IFR. However, as you will presumably already hold a IR(A), that will have included at least 50 hours of IF; Instrument Flight time counts as 4 times IFR time, so you will already meet the 200 hours IFR by definition.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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As BEage has said, you've got the requirements wrong, and you probably already have the required hours.
However, to answer your question about how to log the time, there are two options. As you have no doubt already discovered, the requirements for teaching instrument flying (whether as an FI teaching IMC or IR, or as standalone IRI) are all expressed in terms of IFR hours, with an alternative of "hours by sole reference to instruments" where one hour by sole reference to instruments counts as 4 hours IFR.
So, option 1 is that you log time by sole reference to instruments. This is simple: if you are in a cloud or under foggles, you are flying by sole reference to instruments. As an instructor, you will obviously not be under foggles, so therefore the only time you can log is when you are in a cloud.
Option 2 is that you log your IFR time, and this is more wooly because you can be IFR just about any time you want to be, so long as you comply with the relevant rules (e.g. 1000' rule, quadrantal rule).
To keep in the spirit of the rule, I log my time as follows: if I arrange my flight in such a way that I am prepared to enter IMC if I happen to encounter IMC, then I log it as IFR. This would include a route from A to B where navigation is soley by instruments and I am happy to enter IMC; it would include any instrument approaches or procedural work whilst teaching for the IMC rating; and it definitely includes any time I am actually in IMC.
If I arrange the flight in such a way as to maintain VMC, then I do not log it as IFR. An example would be teaching partial panel - I will not do partial panel in IMC if I can not see an attitude indicator, therefore I always ensure that I maintain VMC when doing these exercises, and do not log them as IFR.
Nothing wrong with having a flight which is part IFR and part not - for example, a partial panel exercise followed by an instrument approach.
That's my personal take on things, and I think it is within the spirit of the law as well as the letter of the law, but it is open to interpretation. A couple of interpretations which are different to mine, for example: one or two PPRuNers insist that an instructor can not log IFR time if he is not at the controls, but I don't agree with this. Also, all night flying in the UK (unless Special VFR inside a control zone) must be IFR, and according to the letter of the law could (maybe even should) count as IFR flight, but I don't believe that it is within the spirit of the law to log this as IFR flight if you are clearly flying and navigating visually for the entire flight. But, at the end of the day, with the exception of the IRI requirements, you have pretty much met the hours requirements to teach for a rating as soon as you have that rating, so it's all pretty academic because no one else really cares.
FFF
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However, to answer your question about how to log the time, there are two options. As you have no doubt already discovered, the requirements for teaching instrument flying (whether as an FI teaching IMC or IR, or as standalone IRI) are all expressed in terms of IFR hours, with an alternative of "hours by sole reference to instruments" where one hour by sole reference to instruments counts as 4 hours IFR.
So, option 1 is that you log time by sole reference to instruments. This is simple: if you are in a cloud or under foggles, you are flying by sole reference to instruments. As an instructor, you will obviously not be under foggles, so therefore the only time you can log is when you are in a cloud.
Option 2 is that you log your IFR time, and this is more wooly because you can be IFR just about any time you want to be, so long as you comply with the relevant rules (e.g. 1000' rule, quadrantal rule).
To keep in the spirit of the rule, I log my time as follows: if I arrange my flight in such a way that I am prepared to enter IMC if I happen to encounter IMC, then I log it as IFR. This would include a route from A to B where navigation is soley by instruments and I am happy to enter IMC; it would include any instrument approaches or procedural work whilst teaching for the IMC rating; and it definitely includes any time I am actually in IMC.
If I arrange the flight in such a way as to maintain VMC, then I do not log it as IFR. An example would be teaching partial panel - I will not do partial panel in IMC if I can not see an attitude indicator, therefore I always ensure that I maintain VMC when doing these exercises, and do not log them as IFR.
Nothing wrong with having a flight which is part IFR and part not - for example, a partial panel exercise followed by an instrument approach.
That's my personal take on things, and I think it is within the spirit of the law as well as the letter of the law, but it is open to interpretation. A couple of interpretations which are different to mine, for example: one or two PPRuNers insist that an instructor can not log IFR time if he is not at the controls, but I don't agree with this. Also, all night flying in the UK (unless Special VFR inside a control zone) must be IFR, and according to the letter of the law could (maybe even should) count as IFR flight, but I don't believe that it is within the spirit of the law to log this as IFR flight if you are clearly flying and navigating visually for the entire flight. But, at the end of the day, with the exception of the IRI requirements, you have pretty much met the hours requirements to teach for a rating as soon as you have that rating, so it's all pretty academic because no one else really cares.
FFF
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In Australia, and I am sure it will be the same in UK,
Instrument Flight TimeAll flight time during which the aircraft was controlled solely by reference to instruments may be recorded in the instrument 'Flight' column:
a) Time above overcast or at night in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) is not counted as instrument flight;
b) In actual or simulated instrument conditions, only the pilot manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot may log all flight time as instrument flight;
c) A flight conducted on an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan is not to be counted as instrument flight unless flying in IMC;
d) Instrument approaches are to be credited to the pilot (pilots, in the case of an airborne radar approach) manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot during the approach.
That is only 1 pilot can log instrument time (and the approaches) and during training that will be the student.
Interested to hear other views.
Paul
Instrument Flight TimeAll flight time during which the aircraft was controlled solely by reference to instruments may be recorded in the instrument 'Flight' column:
a) Time above overcast or at night in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) is not counted as instrument flight;
b) In actual or simulated instrument conditions, only the pilot manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot may log all flight time as instrument flight;
c) A flight conducted on an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan is not to be counted as instrument flight unless flying in IMC;
d) Instrument approaches are to be credited to the pilot (pilots, in the case of an airborne radar approach) manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot during the approach.
That is only 1 pilot can log instrument time (and the approaches) and during training that will be the student.
Interested to hear other views.
Paul
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Oz,
Although it's not written down explicitly anywhere, I don't think that is the way the UK rules are intended to be interpreted.
The basis for me saying this is purely down to the requirements for teaching instrument flying, where it is made clear that time can either be logged as "IFR", or "by sole reference to instruments". The fact that time "by sole reference to instruments" is more valuable than "IFR" by a factor of 4 is enough to convince me that it is quite permissable to log "IFR" under circumstances such as when flying in VMC on an IFR flight plan - very different to the way you describe the rules down under.
FFF
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Although it's not written down explicitly anywhere, I don't think that is the way the UK rules are intended to be interpreted.
The basis for me saying this is purely down to the requirements for teaching instrument flying, where it is made clear that time can either be logged as "IFR", or "by sole reference to instruments". The fact that time "by sole reference to instruments" is more valuable than "IFR" by a factor of 4 is enough to convince me that it is quite permissable to log "IFR" under circumstances such as when flying in VMC on an IFR flight plan - very different to the way you describe the rules down under.
FFF
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I think one of us is missing the point
Whilst training IFR 0nly one person can log the time as "Instrument Flight"
That will normally be the student and the instructor just logs dual and maybe night.
Paul
Whilst training IFR 0nly one person can log the time as "Instrument Flight"
That will normally be the student and the instructor just logs dual and maybe night.
Paul
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Remember the difference between IFR and IMC flying.
You can fly in accordance with IFR in ANY conditions, but to fly in IMC conditions it is in "sole reference to the instruments."
If you are flying a student and you do happen to be in IMC all the time, then you should BOTH log it as so. If however it is a gin clear day and only the student is behind the screens, then they log it as IMC time and you don't, since you are still flying with reference to the outside world and not soley on instruments.
You can fly in accordance with IFR in ANY conditions, but to fly in IMC conditions it is in "sole reference to the instruments."
If you are flying a student and you do happen to be in IMC all the time, then you should BOTH log it as so. If however it is a gin clear day and only the student is behind the screens, then they log it as IMC time and you don't, since you are still flying with reference to the outside world and not soley on instruments.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Oz,
No, I'm not missing the point. In the UK, both the student and the instructor can log it.
SAS's post described my own interpretation of the rules if you decide to log time by sole reference to instruments.
But I would go even further, and say that if you decide to log IFR time, and are clearly carrying out a flight in accordance with IFR (e.g. practicing instrument approaches), then you may both log the time even on a gin clear day.
FFF
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No, I'm not missing the point. In the UK, both the student and the instructor can log it.
SAS's post described my own interpretation of the rules if you decide to log time by sole reference to instruments.
But I would go even further, and say that if you decide to log IFR time, and are clearly carrying out a flight in accordance with IFR (e.g. practicing instrument approaches), then you may both log the time even on a gin clear day.
FFF
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If teaching for the IMC Rating, only the actual time when you, yourself are handling the aeroplane 'by sole reference to instruments' may be logges as 'Instrument Flight Time'. However, the whole flight may be logged for the utterly meaningless JAA 'IFR conditions' purpose.
60 min flight, FI handles ac for 10 minutes by sole reference to instruments, student for 30 min. Assume the whole thing was IFR:
FI: 0:10 min Instrument Flight Time, 1:00 IFR conditions
Student: 0:30 min Instrument Flight Time, 1:00 IFR conditions....
60 min flight, FI handles ac for 10 minutes by sole reference to instruments, student for 30 min. Assume the whole thing was IFR:
FI: 0:10 min Instrument Flight Time, 1:00 IFR conditions
Student: 0:30 min Instrument Flight Time, 1:00 IFR conditions....
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Thanks for that. Hope Ive not opened a can of worms!
BEagle, you mention in your post that you can count the whole flight as IFR. Is this just because you are flying in accordance with quadrantal rules etc, however what happens if ATC give you a VFR clearance for your training detail? Surley most IMC training is conducted in such conditions. Therefore why do most instructors still log it as an IFR flight when teaching?
BEagle, you mention in your post that you can count the whole flight as IFR. Is this just because you are flying in accordance with quadrantal rules etc, however what happens if ATC give you a VFR clearance for your training detail? Surley most IMC training is conducted in such conditions. Therefore why do most instructors still log it as an IFR flight when teaching?
I continue to find it incredible (i.e. not believable) that there are people so stupid that they will spend tens of thousands of pounds to gain a qualification but do not understand what that qualification entitles them to do! A clear knowledge of the difference between VFR/VMC and IFR/IMC is, surely, week 1 PPL stuff, the fact that it should be misunderstood in an 'Instructors and Examiners' forum beggars belief!!
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Please remember that JAR-FCL is written for all of Europe. The UK is unique in that it allows non-IR (or IMC Ratng) holders pilots to fly IFR. In fact it is a requirement at night!
While there may be a difference, if one carefully reads JAR-FCL, one will see exactly how the two elements of IFR flying are to be logged and it makes little difference in the end;
In the JAR-FCL logbook, Operational Condition Time is recorded in column 9. This is flight time undertaken at night (night column) or under instrument flight rules (IFR column). Yes it does say IFR and not IMC so log IFR time and not just IMC time.
However, The remarks column is to be used to record among other things "instrument flight time" and JAR-FCL makes it clear that "A pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions."
Thus the pilot who does lots of IFR flying in VMC (at night in the UK for example) will not have any instrument flight time recorded in the remarks column. The instructor teaching IMC while the flight retmains VMC would be in the same category. However, If the flight is in IMC the the pilot in command must log instrument flight time because after all, who else in the aircraft is qualified to act as crew member in IMC? Anything less would to be making a false record of the flight i.e. trying to say that the flight was VMC with the student under the hood when actually it was in cloud.
To put it another way, if I read an instructor's logbook and it records an IMC course training flight with a student but does not record any instrument time then from that entry I am being told that the flight remained in VMC even if it was under IFR.
Regards,
DFC
While there may be a difference, if one carefully reads JAR-FCL, one will see exactly how the two elements of IFR flying are to be logged and it makes little difference in the end;
In the JAR-FCL logbook, Operational Condition Time is recorded in column 9. This is flight time undertaken at night (night column) or under instrument flight rules (IFR column). Yes it does say IFR and not IMC so log IFR time and not just IMC time.
However, The remarks column is to be used to record among other things "instrument flight time" and JAR-FCL makes it clear that "A pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions."
Thus the pilot who does lots of IFR flying in VMC (at night in the UK for example) will not have any instrument flight time recorded in the remarks column. The instructor teaching IMC while the flight retmains VMC would be in the same category. However, If the flight is in IMC the the pilot in command must log instrument flight time because after all, who else in the aircraft is qualified to act as crew member in IMC? Anything less would to be making a false record of the flight i.e. trying to say that the flight was VMC with the student under the hood when actually it was in cloud.
To put it another way, if I read an instructor's logbook and it records an IMC course training flight with a student but does not record any instrument time then from that entry I am being told that the flight remained in VMC even if it was under IFR.
Regards,
DFC
'Operating' means you must be controlling the aeroplane yourself. Whether the input device is a control column or AFS FCU is immaterial. But you may NOT log 'instrument flight time' for monitoring a student's 'hands-on' time.
BEagle, you really don't listen, do you? I have told you before that, whatever your own prejudices, the UK CAA will accept as 'instrument flight time', for the purpose of complying with the requirements of JAR-FCL, any time spent by an instructor conducting instrument flight training in IMC, whether or not he is handling the controls. You may not like it but it's a fact.
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just wait a minute
I thought the instructor who was actually flying (at the controls) could only log time in actual instrument conditions, but both student and instructor could log the flight as an IFR one.
Can some one for clarity please state all the IFR rules that must be obeyed in order for the flight to be IFR
I thought the instructor who was actually flying (at the controls) could only log time in actual instrument conditions, but both student and instructor could log the flight as an IFR one.
Can some one for clarity please state all the IFR rules that must be obeyed in order for the flight to be IFR
BillieBob, despite your patronising comments, the last information I had from the Authority was that the interpretation placed upon the rules by a certain senior Staff Examiner was at variance with the requirements of JAR-FCL. And judging by their recent record on policy conflict with the JAA, that's not surprising.
Not my 'prejudice' - just obvious sense. Claiming instrument flight time as your own when you are monitoring the efforts of others - as you continue to trot out - is patently absurd.
Looking forward to the dust up which is coming on Friday over the utter crock which is the CAA's effort to rush in the daft MPL - another of your pet loves....
Perhaps yours is that TRTO which has already submitted a proposed course breakdown for this nonsense?
Not my 'prejudice' - just obvious sense. Claiming instrument flight time as your own when you are monitoring the efforts of others - as you continue to trot out - is patently absurd.
Looking forward to the dust up which is coming on Friday over the utter crock which is the CAA's effort to rush in the daft MPL - another of your pet loves....
Perhaps yours is that TRTO which has already submitted a proposed course breakdown for this nonsense?
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As the PIC on an instrument training flight in IMC, I may not be manipulating the controls for the whole thing, but I am still on instruments myself. If we exoanded the argument further using your logic BEagle, none of us should log any time when we are with a student, but we aren't actually flying the machine.
At all times no matter what the conditions, we must be ready to take control, we are monitoring and keeping ourselves in the loop.
How would you define someone on a Cat 3 approach? Afterall, you aren't allowed to hand fly the thing under these conditions and yet you are solid IMC down to the deck, should you not log the IMC time?
Personally I think these arguments slightly spurious, since unless the CAA has an exact track of each flight and an exact copy of the weather at the time, who can actually judge whether you were IMC or not? People could claim for anything and there is no way of checking.
At all times no matter what the conditions, we must be ready to take control, we are monitoring and keeping ourselves in the loop.
How would you define someone on a Cat 3 approach? Afterall, you aren't allowed to hand fly the thing under these conditions and yet you are solid IMC down to the deck, should you not log the IMC time?
Personally I think these arguments slightly spurious, since unless the CAA has an exact track of each flight and an exact copy of the weather at the time, who can actually judge whether you were IMC or not? People could claim for anything and there is no way of checking.
"As the PIC on an instrument training flight in IMC, I may not be manipulating the controls for the whole thing, but I am still on instruments myself. If we exoanded the argument further using your logic BEagle, none of us should log any time when we are with a student, but we aren't actually flying the machine."
No - of course you log all the flight time of any instructional flight because, as the FI, you are PIC. You might consider yourself 'on instruments' but you are not controlling the aeroplane in the example you quote.
"At all times no matter what the conditions, we must be ready to take control, we are monitoring and keeping ourselves in the loop."
You are PIC. If you take control, you commence your own instrument flight time at that point. Do you expect the student to log it as well because he/she is watching you? Of course not.
"How would you define someone on a Cat 3 approach? Afterall, you aren't allowed to hand fly the thing under these conditions and yet you are solid IMC down to the deck, should you not log the IMC time?"
You are controlling the aeroplane through an interface device. In this situation it is the AFS FCU which you are physically handling rather than the control column. 'Hand flying' is irrelevant.
"Personally I think these arguments slightly spurious, since unless the CAA has an exact track of each flight and an exact copy of the weather at the time, who can actually judge whether you were IMC or not? People could claim for anything and there is no way of checking."
Quite so. Whilst flying is assessed by alleged experience rather than by competency-based assessment, there will always be people trying to cheat the system. Those who claim spurious IMC time are merely cheating themselves and their lack of real experience will eventually become obvious.
No - of course you log all the flight time of any instructional flight because, as the FI, you are PIC. You might consider yourself 'on instruments' but you are not controlling the aeroplane in the example you quote.
"At all times no matter what the conditions, we must be ready to take control, we are monitoring and keeping ourselves in the loop."
You are PIC. If you take control, you commence your own instrument flight time at that point. Do you expect the student to log it as well because he/she is watching you? Of course not.
"How would you define someone on a Cat 3 approach? Afterall, you aren't allowed to hand fly the thing under these conditions and yet you are solid IMC down to the deck, should you not log the IMC time?"
You are controlling the aeroplane through an interface device. In this situation it is the AFS FCU which you are physically handling rather than the control column. 'Hand flying' is irrelevant.
"Personally I think these arguments slightly spurious, since unless the CAA has an exact track of each flight and an exact copy of the weather at the time, who can actually judge whether you were IMC or not? People could claim for anything and there is no way of checking."
Quite so. Whilst flying is assessed by alleged experience rather than by competency-based assessment, there will always be people trying to cheat the system. Those who claim spurious IMC time are merely cheating themselves and their lack of real experience will eventually become obvious.
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marsman,
Can some one for clarity please state all the IFR rules that must be obeyed
in order for the flight to be IFR
It is not simply about checking that the flight just happened to comply with the IFR rules - many VFR flights by day in VMC would qualify. My checks on a logbook with IFR time recorded would check;
Valid IMC or IR (night qualification for night outside controlled airspace in the UK).
Recency - sufficient instrument time in the past 28 days not to fall foul of the CAAs recomendation on instrument currency - ignoring that little gem could say something about attitude and what your plan was if you ended up in extended IMC. If the answer is that it was a 8/8 blue day or that you would avoid IMC then the entry should not be IFR.
The IFR flight rules were appropriate for the flight - not flying with a student on a cross country exercise for example.
Remember that your logbook is like writing a diary- it says more about you than a simple list of flights.
----------
BEagle,
The JAR-FCL uses the term operating. It says nothing about controlling.
It is obvious from the logbook entry that the flight was an instructional flight and that a student was doing their best.
Have a look at these logbook entries;
Pilot 1
EGXX 1200 EGYY 1300 Total 0100 IFR 0100 PIC 0100 Instructor 0100 Remarks-IMC training Pilot 2
Pilot 2
EGXX 1200 EGYY 1300 Total 0100 IFR 0100 Dual 0100 Remarks-Instrument flight time 0045, IMC training, pilot 1 signature.
The above flight was conducted in VMC because the Pilot in command did not record that the aircraft was operated by sole reference to instruments at any time. One can deduce from reading both entries together that the student was in simulated IMC (hood/screens).
Another example;
Pilot 1
EGXX 1200 EGYY 1300 Total 0100 IFR 0100 PIC 0100 Instructor 0100 Remarks-Instrument flight time 0030 IMC training Pilot 2
Pilot 2
EGXX 1200 EGYY 1300 Total 0100 IFR 0100 Dual 0100 Remarks-Instrument flight time 0045, IMC training, pilot 1 signature.
The above is the same flight with one big difference - for 30 minutes the flight was in IMC and the pilot in command was operating the aircraft by sole reference to instruments.
Can you suggest an alternative method to determine from logbook entries that the flight was legal?
Regards,
DFC
Can some one for clarity please state all the IFR rules that must be obeyed
in order for the flight to be IFR
It is not simply about checking that the flight just happened to comply with the IFR rules - many VFR flights by day in VMC would qualify. My checks on a logbook with IFR time recorded would check;
Valid IMC or IR (night qualification for night outside controlled airspace in the UK).
Recency - sufficient instrument time in the past 28 days not to fall foul of the CAAs recomendation on instrument currency - ignoring that little gem could say something about attitude and what your plan was if you ended up in extended IMC. If the answer is that it was a 8/8 blue day or that you would avoid IMC then the entry should not be IFR.
The IFR flight rules were appropriate for the flight - not flying with a student on a cross country exercise for example.
Remember that your logbook is like writing a diary- it says more about you than a simple list of flights.
----------
BEagle,
The JAR-FCL uses the term operating. It says nothing about controlling.
It is obvious from the logbook entry that the flight was an instructional flight and that a student was doing their best.
Have a look at these logbook entries;
Pilot 1
EGXX 1200 EGYY 1300 Total 0100 IFR 0100 PIC 0100 Instructor 0100 Remarks-IMC training Pilot 2
Pilot 2
EGXX 1200 EGYY 1300 Total 0100 IFR 0100 Dual 0100 Remarks-Instrument flight time 0045, IMC training, pilot 1 signature.
The above flight was conducted in VMC because the Pilot in command did not record that the aircraft was operated by sole reference to instruments at any time. One can deduce from reading both entries together that the student was in simulated IMC (hood/screens).
Another example;
Pilot 1
EGXX 1200 EGYY 1300 Total 0100 IFR 0100 PIC 0100 Instructor 0100 Remarks-Instrument flight time 0030 IMC training Pilot 2
Pilot 2
EGXX 1200 EGYY 1300 Total 0100 IFR 0100 Dual 0100 Remarks-Instrument flight time 0045, IMC training, pilot 1 signature.
The above is the same flight with one big difference - for 30 minutes the flight was in IMC and the pilot in command was operating the aircraft by sole reference to instruments.
Can you suggest an alternative method to determine from logbook entries that the flight was legal?
Regards,
DFC