Instructors using GPS whilst students are in aircraft
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Instructors using GPS whilst students are in aircraft
I was flying on a VFR nav trip with an experienced instructor who had his own GPS. Most of the time I caught him taking a sneeky peek at his " electronic friend". What are your thoughts about this practice? How professional do you think it is???
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Depends on the circumstances. There are circumstances where using a GPS might be appropriate.
I teach my students to fly by ded reckoning because I firmly believe that this method works. It might not be the best method, but it has worked for over a century and it still works now.
Instructors who, for example, use a GPS to check their position whilst on a navigation exercise such as you describe would at least appear to have little enough faith in the methods they teach that they don't believe they can be sufficiently sure of their position without some extra information. (The same, incidentally, applies to any other navigation aid.)
On the other hand, take the example of an early student, say pre-circuits. The weather is distinctly IMC, so the instructor climbs up to VMC on top and carries out the lesson in clear air on top of the clouds. Now, a large part of the instructor's attention needs to be focused on the content of the lesson. Using GPS as the primary means of navigation now is absolutely the right thing to do, especially moving-map GPS, since this makes the navigation a complete no-brainer, and allows the instructor to focus all his attention on what he is being paid to do - instruct.
There are other examples in between, too. While I was training, shortly after Christmas, my instructor pulled out a portable GPS on one of my nav trips. It was a Christmas present, a new toy which he wanted to play with. He programmed our route into the GPS, and monitored how close to our planned track I was flying - but it was with a sense of wonder of how accurate his new toy was, and nothing to do with his inability to follow my progress on a chart.
And of course it is possible for the instructor to teach the student how to use the GPS as part of the exercise (see one of the current GPS threads in the Private Flying forum), in which case of course it is appropriate to use GPS!
FFF
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I teach my students to fly by ded reckoning because I firmly believe that this method works. It might not be the best method, but it has worked for over a century and it still works now.
Instructors who, for example, use a GPS to check their position whilst on a navigation exercise such as you describe would at least appear to have little enough faith in the methods they teach that they don't believe they can be sufficiently sure of their position without some extra information. (The same, incidentally, applies to any other navigation aid.)
On the other hand, take the example of an early student, say pre-circuits. The weather is distinctly IMC, so the instructor climbs up to VMC on top and carries out the lesson in clear air on top of the clouds. Now, a large part of the instructor's attention needs to be focused on the content of the lesson. Using GPS as the primary means of navigation now is absolutely the right thing to do, especially moving-map GPS, since this makes the navigation a complete no-brainer, and allows the instructor to focus all his attention on what he is being paid to do - instruct.
There are other examples in between, too. While I was training, shortly after Christmas, my instructor pulled out a portable GPS on one of my nav trips. It was a Christmas present, a new toy which he wanted to play with. He programmed our route into the GPS, and monitored how close to our planned track I was flying - but it was with a sense of wonder of how accurate his new toy was, and nothing to do with his inability to follow my progress on a chart.
And of course it is possible for the instructor to teach the student how to use the GPS as part of the exercise (see one of the current GPS threads in the Private Flying forum), in which case of course it is appropriate to use GPS!
FFF
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It's very very dumb instructing !! The student will soon realise that you don't have confidence in your own abilities, and draw their own conclusions. Highly unprofessional.
If you can't do the exercise yourself under the same conditions you're asking the student to do it, then there's a substantial lack of ability and credibility. Lack of ability should make you unemployed. Lack of credibility inevitably leads students to request a different instructor next time. And rightly so.
DR is good, and it works, and the batteries never go flat; but if the airspace is complex, or you're unfamiliar with the area, or there aren't too many good landmarks, you may be foolishly tempted.
But if an instructor isn't competent to teach any particular phase of flight instruction, then it's up to them to become competent before they attempt to pass themselves off as knowing more about it than their students.
If you can't do the exercise yourself under the same conditions you're asking the student to do it, then there's a substantial lack of ability and credibility. Lack of ability should make you unemployed. Lack of credibility inevitably leads students to request a different instructor next time. And rightly so.
DR is good, and it works, and the batteries never go flat; but if the airspace is complex, or you're unfamiliar with the area, or there aren't too many good landmarks, you may be foolishly tempted.
But if an instructor isn't competent to teach any particular phase of flight instruction, then it's up to them to become competent before they attempt to pass themselves off as knowing more about it than their students.
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GPS is there to help once you have mastered Ded Reckoning.
Its a back up system just like VOR's and NDBs (remember, NDB is 70 year old technology that's still an integral part of training!)
GPS is obviously here to stay and in 5 years time it will no doubt be commonplace in all GA aircraft. As with all technology, prices will drop to about £100 per unit (just like cameras, Hi-Fi and DVD players which were once £500 and now you get them free with a tank of petrol.)
Its there to help so use it. If airspace had not become so restrictive in the last 40 years and punishments for entering it so punitive, then surely GPS would still be a figment of imagination in some mad-scientists mind?
Its a back up system just like VOR's and NDBs (remember, NDB is 70 year old technology that's still an integral part of training!)
GPS is obviously here to stay and in 5 years time it will no doubt be commonplace in all GA aircraft. As with all technology, prices will drop to about £100 per unit (just like cameras, Hi-Fi and DVD players which were once £500 and now you get them free with a tank of petrol.)
Its there to help so use it. If airspace had not become so restrictive in the last 40 years and punishments for entering it so punitive, then surely GPS would still be a figment of imagination in some mad-scientists mind?
I often pop the route into the GPS, but leave it on the present position page. To give the student some confidence in his/her pre-flight calculations when they're between visual fixes, I'll flip it to the navigation page and show them "Look - how your good computer work and flying are! The GPS shows you spot on track and agrees with your ETA. Good work, well done!"
It also proves to them how their Standard Closing Angle correction has got them back on the original track.
A useful way of 'rewarding' their efforts. But just to use it with no real training objective would be a bit soul-destroying for the student.
It also proves to them how their Standard Closing Angle correction has got them back on the original track.
A useful way of 'rewarding' their efforts. But just to use it with no real training objective would be a bit soul-destroying for the student.
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GPS can be useful but not for teaching basic navigation! As an instructor I often have a hand-held GPS running during a cross country navex but not where it can be looked at (either by the student or myself). After the flight is complete the track is downloaded on to a chart and forms the basis for de-briefing the flight. Then there is no debate about where we actually were and a comparison can easily be made with the planned flight.
If we have the technology we ought to take advantage of it.
If we have the technology we ought to take advantage of it.
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I am not usually this belligerent, but when I hear pious drivel by people who attempt to boost their own egos by saying its their way or the high way, infuriates me. All instructors will have past a PPL test and a CPL test. In both you demonstrate you have the skill to navigate visually to the standard required to pass the tests. To come on and say in this forum, that because someone uses a modern piece of gadgetry to assist him in making the teaching environment better shows a degree of arrogance and ignorance.
It is like saying a maths teacher should not use a calculator. The maths teacher is their to teach mathematical techniques, not to show how good he is doing sums in his head!
I have been involved in teaching/instructing for 20 years. I have only recently become a flying instructor. During my time in training I have come across some excellent instructors and some weak instructors. A good instructor/teacher is one that can asses the students ability and mould his methods of instruction to best suit the individual students needs and is not determined by what he uses to do this. Flying is not a black art.
I purchased a Garmin etrex on e-bay for £70 and its great!! It shows a basic Course line and will show if you are left/right of track. This gives me as a instructor early situational awareness from the outset as to what the student is doing. This means that I have had loads of time to prepare to lead the student to the right conclusion during any navigational exercise. The GPS allows me as an instructor more time to invest in teaching in the same way a calculator assists a maths teacher.
Sorry to all if I have sounded as if I am on a rant. Someone must have rattled my cage today. I off for a beer.
Mumbo
It is like saying a maths teacher should not use a calculator. The maths teacher is their to teach mathematical techniques, not to show how good he is doing sums in his head!
I have been involved in teaching/instructing for 20 years. I have only recently become a flying instructor. During my time in training I have come across some excellent instructors and some weak instructors. A good instructor/teacher is one that can asses the students ability and mould his methods of instruction to best suit the individual students needs and is not determined by what he uses to do this. Flying is not a black art.
I purchased a Garmin etrex on e-bay for £70 and its great!! It shows a basic Course line and will show if you are left/right of track. This gives me as a instructor early situational awareness from the outset as to what the student is doing. This means that I have had loads of time to prepare to lead the student to the right conclusion during any navigational exercise. The GPS allows me as an instructor more time to invest in teaching in the same way a calculator assists a maths teacher.
Sorry to all if I have sounded as if I am on a rant. Someone must have rattled my cage today. I off for a beer.
Mumbo
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you can't go re-writting the ppl syllabus because you think that GPS is a rather natty bit of kit. an examiner will want to see a student do a nav-ex by using dead-reckoning, map reading and closing angles to regain track. no GPS is allowed in the test so why bring it into the lesson?
if an instructor cannot keep their own SA on a simple VFR nav-ex without the use of a GPS then what hope does the student have.
if an instructor cannot keep their own SA on a simple VFR nav-ex without the use of a GPS then what hope does the student have.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Mumbo, I completely disagree with your post.
That's true - you know that, and I know that. But if you give the student clues which suggest (even though it might not be the case) that you are not capable of navigating accurately visually, why should he believe that he is capable of doing it?
If the maths teacher is teaching long division, he should be able to do long division using the techniques he teaches. Imagine the reaction of a student if he is being taught to do long division, and his teacher shows him the techniques, but then demonstrates that those techniques are sufficiently difficult that he doesn't like using them, and prefers a calculator?
On the other hand, no one is suggesting that the teacher shouldn't use the calculator, and teach the students how to do so effectively, as a different exercise.
This reminds me a little of the frustration I have when watching certain detective movies, and the detective solves the mystery using a clue which wasn't shown on the screen. Of course the GPS will give you "early situational awareness", but the aim of the exercise is for the student to be confident that he can have sufficient situation awareness using the techniques you are teaching him. By using the GPS to enhance your situational awareness above what is possible using visual techniques alone, you are demonstrating to the student that the visual techniques are not sufficient.
Please do not think I am anti-GPS, because I'm not. BEagle and Captain Jock both describe very good ways in which GPS can be used to enhance the educational experience. In both their techniques, they show the student how it is possible to fly visually, and only then do they employ the GPS as further proof that the techniques they are teaching actually worked, which is in contrast to what you seem to be describing.
FFF
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All instructors will have past a PPL test and a CPL test. In both you demonstrate you have the skill to navigate visually to the standard required to pass the tests
It is like saying a maths teacher should not use a calculator. The maths teacher is their (sic) to teach mathematical techniques, not to show how good he is doing sums in his head!
On the other hand, no one is suggesting that the teacher shouldn't use the calculator, and teach the students how to do so effectively, as a different exercise.
This gives me as a instructor early situational awareness from the outset as to what the student is doing. This means that I have had loads of time to prepare to lead the student to the right conclusion during any navigational exercise
Please do not think I am anti-GPS, because I'm not. BEagle and Captain Jock both describe very good ways in which GPS can be used to enhance the educational experience. In both their techniques, they show the student how it is possible to fly visually, and only then do they employ the GPS as further proof that the techniques they are teaching actually worked, which is in contrast to what you seem to be describing.
FFF
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No one is suggesting that the student uses a GPS for any part of his Nav. Why not make all instructors dispense with their maps to show how brilliant they are and while we are at it, start to wear our pants on the outside. We are as instructors super human. 
I had an instructor who prided himself at not needing a map. Never carried one and never used a whiz wheel.
Did I think of him as a great aviator who obviously had the mind of a nomad. No, I thought of him as someone with a very high opinion of himself who had obviously been flying around the circuit too long and would one day drop himself in the sticky.
Hunybun do you mean to tell me that you have never tune in the NDB or DME to a station while the student flies pure VFR to have available an accurate loc stat if requested.
The reason my cage has been rattled on this subject is because a colleague of mine was killed during a live firing exercise back in the 80s. He made a minor mistake at night with his map and compass in close country. Up to that point it had been macho to scoff at the shiny gizmo for the navigationally challenged. A £70 GPS would have saved his life and saves others to this day.
Students need to learn VFR navigation in order to pass their skills test. That is something we can all agree on. Instructors carrying a GPS on their laps for what ever purpose should matter not a jot, as long as the instruction on VFR navigation is good.
I’m ranting again. Sorry!!
Mumbo
I had an instructor who prided himself at not needing a map. Never carried one and never used a whiz wheel.
Did I think of him as a great aviator who obviously had the mind of a nomad. No, I thought of him as someone with a very high opinion of himself who had obviously been flying around the circuit too long and would one day drop himself in the sticky. Hunybun do you mean to tell me that you have never tune in the NDB or DME to a station while the student flies pure VFR to have available an accurate loc stat if requested.
The reason my cage has been rattled on this subject is because a colleague of mine was killed during a live firing exercise back in the 80s. He made a minor mistake at night with his map and compass in close country. Up to that point it had been macho to scoff at the shiny gizmo for the navigationally challenged. A £70 GPS would have saved his life and saves others to this day.
Students need to learn VFR navigation in order to pass their skills test. That is something we can all agree on. Instructors carrying a GPS on their laps for what ever purpose should matter not a jot, as long as the instruction on VFR navigation is good.
I’m ranting again. Sorry!!
Mumbo
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Why not make all instructors dispense with their maps to show how brilliant they are and while we are at it, start to wear our pants on the outside
Mumbo, I've very sorry to hear about your colleague. His plight is obviously the reason you don't trust visual techniques, and this mistrust is apparent in the way your describe your navigation lessons.
Without knowing the detail's of your colleague's death, I wouldn't want to speculate on why the visual techniques didn't work for him; I'm sure the AAIB have already investigated and done their best to find the reasons for the mistake. Surely the best action now would be to read the report, and try to alter the way in which you teach visual navigation to your students so that the techniques you teach (and use yourself) can be used to avoid a repeat?
I also note that your colleague's entry into the live firing range occured at night. We all know that visual navigation is extremely difficult at night, and unless I was extremely familiar with the area, I would not attempt to navigate visually, at night, in an area where precision is vital - but, more importantly, I would suggest to my students that they shouldn't do so either. In this instance, every navigational tool must be used to back up the visual navigation.
Presumably, though, when teaching night navigation, the student already knows how to navigate. The aim of the exercise is different to daytime navigation, because we do not need to teach the basics of navigation at night. The reason that an hour of night navigation is mandatory as part of the night qualification is so that the student a) learns the differences between how ground features appear during the night compared to the day, and learns which are good features to use for navigation and which aren't, and b) appreciates how difficult night navigation is, and why it is so important to use navaids to back up visual navigation. Since the student has already learnt the techniques of ded reckoning and map reading during the day, and has come to trust those techniques, I can't see any problem with using the GPS, or any other aid, at night, so long as you explain to the student what your are doing, and expect the student to do the same, or be able to do the same, in a similar situation.
Hunybun do you mean to tell me that you have never tune in the NDB or DME to a station while the student flies pure VFR to have available an accurate loc stat if requested
FFF
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next they will be advocating sextants and saying we have to light bonfires to land at night because that is how it was done in the 'good old days', Perhaps we should use semaphore to get our taxi clearance just in case the radio fails or there is a power cut....
I'm with you mumbo on this one
I'm with you mumbo on this one
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Hmm... if using a sextant was on the syllabus, I would learn to do so, and I would learn it well enough that I could teach it with confidence. But it's not. We can't change the syllabus, we can only teach it to the best of our ability.
As for using bonfires for landing at night - landing on runways 13/31 at Blackpool was pretty much like that until last week, when they officially closed it for night operations because the lights weren't up to CAA specifications
FFF
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As for using bonfires for landing at night - landing on runways 13/31 at Blackpool was pretty much like that until last week, when they officially closed it for night operations because the lights weren't up to CAA specifications
FFF
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FFF,
Sorry my post didn’t make it clear. My colleague was on the ground walking. We were in the army together and it had nothing to do with aviation. He just made a basic mistake on his time and bearing and put himself in front of a Battalion night attack. We had GPS at Company level but not at the time to platoon level. If he had had one he would not have goofed.
FFF next time you are over this side of the Pennines you will have to drop by for another Chilli and beers.
Got to go, the wife is now kicking off!!
Mumbo
Sorry my post didn’t make it clear. My colleague was on the ground walking. We were in the army together and it had nothing to do with aviation. He just made a basic mistake on his time and bearing and put himself in front of a Battalion night attack. We had GPS at Company level but not at the time to platoon level. If he had had one he would not have goofed.
FFF next time you are over this side of the Pennines you will have to drop by for another Chilli and beers.
Got to go, the wife is now kicking off!!
Mumbo
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I have tamed the wild woman of wonga!
My main point is, it should not matter what tools a teacher uses to assist any lesson. It is the quality and correct instruction that makes a true professional.
Right, enough said. Off to have a two quiet beers, then some very noisy ones. May the wind at your backs never be your own.
Love Mumbo.
My main point is, it should not matter what tools a teacher uses to assist any lesson. It is the quality and correct instruction that makes a true professional.
Right, enough said. Off to have a two quiet beers, then some very noisy ones. May the wind at your backs never be your own.
Love Mumbo.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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FFF next time you are over this side of the Pennines you will have to drop by for another Chilli and beers
FFF
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Mumbo, I'm genuinely sorry your colleague was killed when a GPS would have prevented that.
But I don't see how that reflects on instructors who are unable or unwilling to fly to the same standard on basic exercises that they're asking students to do.
We're not talking about advanced or unusual training here. This is straight-forward flying that any half-competent instructor needs to be able to do to a professional standard.
If an instructor needs to use a GPS when they're with a student on a VFR DR navex, especially using it secretively as in the original post, the student should be asking very loudly why they're being asked to do an exercise that the instructor can't do.
Why don't instructors go back to sextants and underwear on the outside ? Because that's not what we're asking students to do. We want them to be competent at VFR DR nav. A simple, basic, fundamental flying skill.
But I don't see how that reflects on instructors who are unable or unwilling to fly to the same standard on basic exercises that they're asking students to do.
We're not talking about advanced or unusual training here. This is straight-forward flying that any half-competent instructor needs to be able to do to a professional standard.
If an instructor needs to use a GPS when they're with a student on a VFR DR navex, especially using it secretively as in the original post, the student should be asking very loudly why they're being asked to do an exercise that the instructor can't do.
Why don't instructors go back to sextants and underwear on the outside ? Because that's not what we're asking students to do. We want them to be competent at VFR DR nav. A simple, basic, fundamental flying skill.
Last edited by Unhinged; 29th Jan 2006 at 10:15.
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Originally Posted by FlyingForFun
Depends on the circumstances. There are circumstances where using a GPS might be appropriate.
...
The weather is distinctly IMC, so the instructor climbs up to VMC on top and carries out the lesson in clear air on top of the clouds. Now, a large part of the instructor's attention needs to be focused on the content of the lesson. Using GPS as the primary means of navigation now is absolutely the right thing to do, especially moving-map GPS, since this makes the navigation a complete no-brainer, and allows the instructor to focus all his attention on what he is being paid to do - instruct.
...
The weather is distinctly IMC, so the instructor climbs up to VMC on top and carries out the lesson in clear air on top of the clouds. Now, a large part of the instructor's attention needs to be focused on the content of the lesson. Using GPS as the primary means of navigation now is absolutely the right thing to do, especially moving-map GPS, since this makes the navigation a complete no-brainer, and allows the instructor to focus all his attention on what he is being paid to do - instruct.
1. GPS is NOT legal as a primary means of navigation in UK airspace. If you cannot fly with a map/radio nav aids in that situation then GPS must not be used to perform the flight.
2. Given that 2 years ago whilst teaching I had a PA34 almost 'punt' me up the rear during an instructional flight I wonder how he passed 30' away from me and NEVER saw me....perhaps too busy enjoying his moving map display...which is the primary problem of GPS...too much time in the cockpit causes accidents.
However, although I may seem anti-GPS I agree it can help the instructor with positioning and reduce workload if used in an appropriate manner. Additionally I can use GPS recording facilities for an IMC ADF tracking exercise, and when on the ground load the GPS trace into my laptop (& memory map/RANT) to use as an aid during the debrief - RANT is paritcularly useful here as I can show the student what the needles were saying at the time.
WRT to an instructor using GPS during a VFR DR exercise - my gut reaction is that the the instructor is bang out of order. The point of teaching *how* to navigate appears to have been lost here - no doubt the instructor will be telling the student they were 'off-track' by a certain amount rather than showing them *how* to assess this visually outside.
'bout time that instructor did a flight test/seminar...
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Originally Posted by FormationFlyer
GPS is NOT legal as a primary means of navigation in UK airspace. If you cannot fly with a map/radio nav aids in that situation then GPS must not be used to perform the flight.
In a thread on a different topic, Formation Flyer asked:
Do you have any ANO reference, as I cannot find any documentation for the rule you suggest exists?