Concern - FI shortage
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Rob
No, the subject is any potential FI shortage. - Rob
As my post standing up for CAC has been removed,then it's only fair to remove Mr Mans and sean dillons reference to CAC, or is there an ulterior motive to leave them on?
Andy.
As my post standing up for CAC has been removed,then it's only fair to remove Mr Mans and sean dillons reference to CAC, or is there an ulterior motive to leave them on?
Andy.
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Well that's an interesting thought Andy.
How about we turn that question to the originator of this thread. Click on the name (there could be a clue there) and view all posts.
Now how about you use your skill and judgement to review every post made in the last 18 months.
Readers are entirely able to judge for themselves where ulterior motives lie.
rob
How about we turn that question to the originator of this thread. Click on the name (there could be a clue there) and view all posts.
Now how about you use your skill and judgement to review every post made in the last 18 months.
Readers are entirely able to judge for themselves where ulterior motives lie.
rob
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Rob
Hi rob
I see what you mean, there are some naughty adds from cac but they tend to be in answer to a post and maybe they are genuinely just offering to help someone out.
There has been some good advice offered, eg...when would you send someone solo, I imagine that gets forgotten.
The post slamming cac for not giving them a job makes me laugh, just because an individual has passed an FI course it doesn't make them suitable to teach, if a potential employer has exacting standards then that can only be good for the industry.
Andy.
I see what you mean, there are some naughty adds from cac but they tend to be in answer to a post and maybe they are genuinely just offering to help someone out.
There has been some good advice offered, eg...when would you send someone solo, I imagine that gets forgotten.
The post slamming cac for not giving them a job makes me laugh, just because an individual has passed an FI course it doesn't make them suitable to teach, if a potential employer has exacting standards then that can only be good for the industry.
Andy.
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Couldn't agree more.I don't automatically deserve a job because I have a FI ticket.If I didn't fit the exacting standards,then fine,in fact I have nothing but praise for CAC,as I made clear.My point was that MAYBE they should look at wether they're too fussy,and to say they wanted someone experienced when they knew my situation from the start was strange.Had they said I didn't fit the bill,then fine.
If my post should be removed for content,then 99% of pprune would be removed.
CAC are a successful school,as is the one that I'm currently at.Can't see the controversy Andy.
Regards!
If my post should be removed for content,then 99% of pprune would be removed.
CAC are a successful school,as is the one that I'm currently at.Can't see the controversy Andy.
Regards!
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Little perplexed by the evolution of this thead...
Complaining that you were not offered a job in Cambridge after a checkflight, seems to say more about your flying abilities than the CAC and is perhaps more than I'd want to share!
I understand CAC sets, aspires to and apparently maintains very high standards. This also appears to be perceived as a negative thing. Not sure why that is either. I wonder if there's an element of sour grapes from those that haven't been able to make that grade?
As for egos...please...look at what's been posted.
Irrespective of all this, the inital question remains valid. How is the industry going to mainintain a supply of good instructors, in the face of self sponsored type ratings, ready supplies of borrowed money, no real requirement to hour build prior to getting an airline break and the impending MPL.
Hoping the mods allow this to stand...
Complaining that you were not offered a job in Cambridge after a checkflight, seems to say more about your flying abilities than the CAC and is perhaps more than I'd want to share!
I understand CAC sets, aspires to and apparently maintains very high standards. This also appears to be perceived as a negative thing. Not sure why that is either. I wonder if there's an element of sour grapes from those that haven't been able to make that grade?
As for egos...please...look at what's been posted.
Irrespective of all this, the inital question remains valid. How is the industry going to mainintain a supply of good instructors, in the face of self sponsored type ratings, ready supplies of borrowed money, no real requirement to hour build prior to getting an airline break and the impending MPL.
Hoping the mods allow this to stand...
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Jaydee and co
Little perplexed by the evolution of this thead...
So am I ???
If CAC are not even bothering to interview qualified and experienced instructors then it is not surprising that they have a problem with recruiting
Rule number one of recruitment = Interview people for the job !
If you don't interview then you cannot appoint anybody.....seems like a "no brainer"
Little perplexed by the evolution of this thead...
So am I ???
If CAC are not even bothering to interview qualified and experienced instructors then it is not surprising that they have a problem with recruiting
Rule number one of recruitment = Interview people for the job !
If you don't interview then you cannot appoint anybody.....seems like a "no brainer"
Jet Blast Rat
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Unfazed
They have identified the need for an instructor at that salary. It might be that they would not have sufficient business to need one if they had to pay more and therefore the student would have to pay more. This is the same point I made before, but I'm not sure how I could make it any clearer
I am not just talking about CAC, of course. Friends working full-time at Bournemouth Flying Club are earning a living wage, from a combined salary and hourly pay in some cases (I only work there occasionally, so get paid by the hour), which is a distinct improvement on past times. I know clubs that pay less well are struggling to fill instructor vacancies, suggesting a lack of instructors.
They have identified the need for an instructor at that salary. It might be that they would not have sufficient business to need one if they had to pay more and therefore the student would have to pay more. This is the same point I made before, but I'm not sure how I could make it any clearer
I am not just talking about CAC, of course. Friends working full-time at Bournemouth Flying Club are earning a living wage, from a combined salary and hourly pay in some cases (I only work there occasionally, so get paid by the hour), which is a distinct improvement on past times. I know clubs that pay less well are struggling to fill instructor vacancies, suggesting a lack of instructors.
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Jaydee27
Unbelievable........I couldn't have made it any clearer that my instructing abilities were not at that stage up to the standards required,this does not embarass me and I certainly have no problems "sharing" it.Far from being "sour grapes",I am geniunely very happy with how my situation has turned out.I will happily make my views clear for you:
I personally don't think there's a serious shortage of instructors at present,however,there may be a shortage of instructors of a certain "standard".
Send Clowns
I understand your point,but don't think the wage is an issue with CAC,as I was told it was substancially higher than most schools.
Unbelievable........I couldn't have made it any clearer that my instructing abilities were not at that stage up to the standards required,this does not embarass me and I certainly have no problems "sharing" it.Far from being "sour grapes",I am geniunely very happy with how my situation has turned out.I will happily make my views clear for you:
I personally don't think there's a serious shortage of instructors at present,however,there may be a shortage of instructors of a certain "standard".
Send Clowns
I understand your point,but don't think the wage is an issue with CAC,as I was told it was substancially higher than most schools.
Jet Blast Rat
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Yes, it is, but I was not talking about CAC's problem specifically. Their salary still doesn't fit the criteria RVR800 set, to be on average above national average wage. The point I was making is that the failure of wages to rise above that level even when there are few instructors to fill placves is not necessarily a supply-side issue, but might be a demand issue due to cost of training.
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Speaking of CAC, I remember a while back they were looking for instructors, I called and the guy said drop in. So, I was flying past soon after and dropped in. Unfortunately it was the guys day off but he was in so I asked to speak to him for a couple of mins as we were both there...he refused, and then complained on the forum about the dedication of instructors going for interview.
Sorry but there is an attitude issue here.
Sorry but there is an attitude issue here.
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Right, leaving aside the issues of CAC (and yes I do have experience of the place.) is there a shortage or not?
Send Clowns makes a good point in that until there is a chronic shortage and the "value" of an FI goes up to a sensible level, then we can't say that it is too bad.
As the supply of FI's dries up (which it is doing to a certain extent) then clubs will have to start paying more, though to be honest we will always be fighting a losing battle against the airlines. Most CPL holders really don't want to instruct, they are forced to do it in a quest to increase their experience and make themselves more palatable to an airline.
Until we get career FI's, then this won't change. At my club, we are all part-timers and get our living from either an airline or some other career. This really just makes the best of a ridiculous situation. Hopefully we can eventually reach a time where an FI is a valued member of the aviation community rather than the "poor relation" (in more ways than one!)
When we get that, then hopefully we won't get this boom and bust situation which is utterly cr*p for the long term health of flight training in this country.
Send Clowns makes a good point in that until there is a chronic shortage and the "value" of an FI goes up to a sensible level, then we can't say that it is too bad.
As the supply of FI's dries up (which it is doing to a certain extent) then clubs will have to start paying more, though to be honest we will always be fighting a losing battle against the airlines. Most CPL holders really don't want to instruct, they are forced to do it in a quest to increase their experience and make themselves more palatable to an airline.
Until we get career FI's, then this won't change. At my club, we are all part-timers and get our living from either an airline or some other career. This really just makes the best of a ridiculous situation. Hopefully we can eventually reach a time where an FI is a valued member of the aviation community rather than the "poor relation" (in more ways than one!)
When we get that, then hopefully we won't get this boom and bust situation which is utterly cr*p for the long term health of flight training in this country.
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Say again slowly
As long as we have people on this forum (a forum for professional instructors) stating that they would love to see clubs staffed by part time PPL instructors who will allow these struggling businesses to break even then I don't see how we can improve things.
Either you support full time professional instructing or you don't (e.g. would love to make it a part time hobby), if you do support the ideal of a full time career instructing professional then we need to start treating instructors accordingly (and instructors need to act as such).
As long as we have people on this forum (a forum for professional instructors) stating that they would love to see clubs staffed by part time PPL instructors who will allow these struggling businesses to break even then I don't see how we can improve things.
Either you support full time professional instructing or you don't (e.g. would love to make it a part time hobby), if you do support the ideal of a full time career instructing professional then we need to start treating instructors accordingly (and instructors need to act as such).
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All FI's in my club are at minimum CPL holder's. No PPL's.
Personally however, I see no problem with a PPL FI as long as they can be paid properly.
The FI rating should be a darn sight harder to get than it is currently and then we'll get people who actually want to be instructors, rather than those who are forced to and couldn't really give a monkey's.
We make the best of a bad situation by ensuring that our FI's are teaching for the right reasons, this means that they are more likely to give our customers value for money since they aren't under any pressure to do as much flying as possible and it means we have a very stable instructing team. In 18 months of operation we still have the same team (plus some new recruits) whereas the other local schools have seen at least 100% turnover in instructing staff in under a year!
I'm trying to achieve stability for my customers in this environment, anything else is secondary, but eventually we will have full time FI's at the club and hopefully we will be able to pay them a proper salary, but I won't bankrupt the club to do it. If you have a suggestion on how I'm "damaging" our industry by providing excellent instruction at a sensible cost (we are in no way cheap) and by giving our FI's a good hourly rate and ensuring that ALL monies from the students go direct to the Instructing staff rather than into someone's pocket, then let me know.
As I'm trying my best to drag this business kicking and screaming into the 20th century (let alone the 21st) for the good of everyone, not just the FI's and not just the students and PPL's and if you saw how much I get "paid" for the work I put in, then I'm certainly not doing it for the good of my bank account!
If you think the problems this industry faces are as simple as supporting full time instruction, then you've got some shocks coming.
Personally however, I see no problem with a PPL FI as long as they can be paid properly.
The FI rating should be a darn sight harder to get than it is currently and then we'll get people who actually want to be instructors, rather than those who are forced to and couldn't really give a monkey's.
We make the best of a bad situation by ensuring that our FI's are teaching for the right reasons, this means that they are more likely to give our customers value for money since they aren't under any pressure to do as much flying as possible and it means we have a very stable instructing team. In 18 months of operation we still have the same team (plus some new recruits) whereas the other local schools have seen at least 100% turnover in instructing staff in under a year!
I'm trying to achieve stability for my customers in this environment, anything else is secondary, but eventually we will have full time FI's at the club and hopefully we will be able to pay them a proper salary, but I won't bankrupt the club to do it. If you have a suggestion on how I'm "damaging" our industry by providing excellent instruction at a sensible cost (we are in no way cheap) and by giving our FI's a good hourly rate and ensuring that ALL monies from the students go direct to the Instructing staff rather than into someone's pocket, then let me know.
As I'm trying my best to drag this business kicking and screaming into the 20th century (let alone the 21st) for the good of everyone, not just the FI's and not just the students and PPL's and if you saw how much I get "paid" for the work I put in, then I'm certainly not doing it for the good of my bank account!
If you think the problems this industry faces are as simple as supporting full time instruction, then you've got some shocks coming.
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The fact that PPL instructing is badly paid and also difficult for the FTO's to make a reasonable profit out of is a given.
What astounds me (coming from a business background) is that more effort isn't made to create and sell peripheral packages that can command higher instructing rates.
CPL, ME & IR all command good rates. Surely an FTO with a little gumption could create post PPL packages that can be sold to enhance a PPL's knowledge, enjoyment, enthusiasm and safety.
Some ideas - bundled packages for Aeros, Night, IMC, Grass strip landing, mountain flying, flight over water, advanced GPS use, advanced PPL techniques, controlled Airspace and major airports, Complex SE, Winter flying etc etc.
Add on training packs will keep PPL's motivated to keep flying, improving the hire revenue.
Some FTO's have adverts for additional packs, but then make no active effort to sell them to their PPL's. Then they grumble that they can't make a living out of PPL training.
It is business after all. Sales & profit should be of interest to the FI's too.
I wouldn't want to see FI's paid commission for selling advanced packages - but someone should. Even employing a pleasant receptionist is a start.....!
What astounds me (coming from a business background) is that more effort isn't made to create and sell peripheral packages that can command higher instructing rates.
CPL, ME & IR all command good rates. Surely an FTO with a little gumption could create post PPL packages that can be sold to enhance a PPL's knowledge, enjoyment, enthusiasm and safety.
Some ideas - bundled packages for Aeros, Night, IMC, Grass strip landing, mountain flying, flight over water, advanced GPS use, advanced PPL techniques, controlled Airspace and major airports, Complex SE, Winter flying etc etc.
Add on training packs will keep PPL's motivated to keep flying, improving the hire revenue.
Some FTO's have adverts for additional packs, but then make no active effort to sell them to their PPL's. Then they grumble that they can't make a living out of PPL training.
It is business after all. Sales & profit should be of interest to the FI's too.
I wouldn't want to see FI's paid commission for selling advanced packages - but someone should. Even employing a pleasant receptionist is a start.....!
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One of the major issues, is that PPL training is usually done by an RF (registered facility) whereas to be able to train for the CPL or IR, you need to be an FTO (Flight Training Organisation) this involves a lot of money and hassle for not an awful lot of reward. So whilst you can get paid more per-hour, your overheads go through the roof.
Aero's, mountain flying, grass strip etc.. is usually offered anywhere decent, but many clubs don't have access to either FI's capable of teaching these things or aircraft that are suitable. (My club can, but we are unusual in that respect in our area.)
Aero's, mountain flying, grass strip etc.. is usually offered anywhere decent, but many clubs don't have access to either FI's capable of teaching these things or aircraft that are suitable. (My club can, but we are unusual in that respect in our area.)
Gizajob
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I think a lot of the forward-looking clubs do offer the courses mentioned where they have FIs with the skills needed. Even then though, uptake is not great in my experience. My guess is that unless people can see a need for having those 'badges' (e.g. they want to fly in cloud or explore farm strips etc), they won't do the course. Just learning is not enough of a motivation for a lot of folks.
Of course there are also a lot of PPLs who just want to fly without the 'pressure' of an instructor next to them. Courses aren't going to work there...
Of course there are also a lot of PPLs who just want to fly without the 'pressure' of an instructor next to them. Courses aren't going to work there...
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I have seen other courses offered and advertised, but my point was more about how "products" are marketed and sold by clubs & FTO's.
I can understand that organisations are too small to employ someone dedicated to selling, business generation etc but other small businesses seem to understand the concepts better than flying schools.
I've flown with a few clubs/FTO's now and even though they are largish names in the industry, I have never received a newsletter or mailshot from any of them. No one has ever come up to me and said - "you've been doing a fair few hours in our Warrior - do you want to try out the Arrow for £££?"
Has anyone ever had a phonecall saying "we've just had a booking for the 172 cancelled, do you want it for a few hours for a special price...."? They don't earn money sitting on the ground.
I'm not advocating that the moment a PPL turns up at the club he is besieged by special offers, incentives and pushy sales tactics, but some attention to good business practice and customer service would be appreciated.
I can understand that organisations are too small to employ someone dedicated to selling, business generation etc but other small businesses seem to understand the concepts better than flying schools.
I've flown with a few clubs/FTO's now and even though they are largish names in the industry, I have never received a newsletter or mailshot from any of them. No one has ever come up to me and said - "you've been doing a fair few hours in our Warrior - do you want to try out the Arrow for £££?"
Has anyone ever had a phonecall saying "we've just had a booking for the 172 cancelled, do you want it for a few hours for a special price...."? They don't earn money sitting on the ground.
I'm not advocating that the moment a PPL turns up at the club he is besieged by special offers, incentives and pushy sales tactics, but some attention to good business practice and customer service would be appreciated.
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Some of us do that, but you are correct in that the vast majority seem to have no concept of how to market a product.
Whilst a/c are sitting on the ground they don't make money, a lot of the time however, they won't lose money either, so many wouldn't even think about "special offers" as they think it would lose them money, forgetting that in the long term it would probably help boost sales.
Most flying schools make money despite themselves, not because of any particular marketing genius!
Whilst a/c are sitting on the ground they don't make money, a lot of the time however, they won't lose money either, so many wouldn't even think about "special offers" as they think it would lose them money, forgetting that in the long term it would probably help boost sales.
Most flying schools make money despite themselves, not because of any particular marketing genius!
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Some interesting points about school economics.
I have a couple of questions:
1) Do any schools phone up trial lessons one week later to see if they want to book a follow up lesson. Is any proactive marketing done or do all schools just rely on adverts? The only school I know of that did do any marketing kept sending me details on PPL offers long after I had a PPL (every 6 months for 3 years until I called them and told them. At which point they just stopped , never mind night, imc, cpl ,ir etc...).
2) Is the flying market that price sensitive? If schools charged £10 (or even £20) more for instruction per hour would it make any difference, other than getting instructors to earn a half reasonable salary.
I have a couple of questions:
1) Do any schools phone up trial lessons one week later to see if they want to book a follow up lesson. Is any proactive marketing done or do all schools just rely on adverts? The only school I know of that did do any marketing kept sending me details on PPL offers long after I had a PPL (every 6 months for 3 years until I called them and told them. At which point they just stopped , never mind night, imc, cpl ,ir etc...).
2) Is the flying market that price sensitive? If schools charged £10 (or even £20) more for instruction per hour would it make any difference, other than getting instructors to earn a half reasonable salary.