How often?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: West London
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How often?
Do you have students who, for whatever reason, are just incapable of going solo? (And presumably, your opinion of their abilities is not necessarily accepted by them!)
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: essex
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes - Not very many but occasionaly there will be a candidate who is having problems, I have one at the moment.
You need to identify the source of the problem and then set out to verify that there is indeed a fundamental problem. Once you have satisfied yourself you should then get a colleague (preferably the CFI) to fly with the candidate and assess things in an open way to see if they can fix the problem.
Once you have consulted the CFI and are both in agreement then the candidate needs to be put in the picture (hopefully this will not be a bolt from the blue as you will have been communicating openly and honestly with the candidate all along so the training record should back up your decision).
If done sensitively then the candidate should accept your decision, I would not give up on someone until we have given it a fair bash !! e.g. 30 hours still unable to get around the circuit safely and land ?? let's not waste any more time and money.
If the candidate won't accept the decision that's OK but they have been told.
You need to identify the source of the problem and then set out to verify that there is indeed a fundamental problem. Once you have satisfied yourself you should then get a colleague (preferably the CFI) to fly with the candidate and assess things in an open way to see if they can fix the problem.
Once you have consulted the CFI and are both in agreement then the candidate needs to be put in the picture (hopefully this will not be a bolt from the blue as you will have been communicating openly and honestly with the candidate all along so the training record should back up your decision).
If done sensitively then the candidate should accept your decision, I would not give up on someone until we have given it a fair bash !! e.g. 30 hours still unable to get around the circuit safely and land ?? let's not waste any more time and money.
If the candidate won't accept the decision that's OK but they have been told.
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 4,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've had students who are very over-confident, and think they are ready for solo well before they are.
I generally find that regular in-flight correction and a serious de-briefing after the flight brings them back down to earth, and they realise that they still have quite a way to go. This isn't a technique which I would suggest for the majority of students, but it does seem to work for those who think they are ready for solo but aren't - in my experience, they generally seem to go away a little dispondant, and come back for the next lesson ready to learn. It's not usually too much longer before they are ready for solo.
That's not to say that I won't come across someone like you describe in the future.
FFF
---------------
I generally find that regular in-flight correction and a serious de-briefing after the flight brings them back down to earth, and they realise that they still have quite a way to go. This isn't a technique which I would suggest for the majority of students, but it does seem to work for those who think they are ready for solo but aren't - in my experience, they generally seem to go away a little dispondant, and come back for the next lesson ready to learn. It's not usually too much longer before they are ready for solo.
That's not to say that I won't come across someone like you describe in the future.
FFF
---------------
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Oop North, UK
Posts: 3,076
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I had one student who had got to over 40 hours when I got him, he had already been advised by previous instructors that he would not go solo and should give up but he wanted to continue because "i enjoy flying" - my recommendation then was that we forgot pounding the circuit and did other flying that he would enjoy and just finish each detail with 2 or 3 circuits, he thoroughly enjoyed his flying and finaly got solo at about 60 hours, eventually finishing his PPL.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Age: 85
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know a lady, not exactly young, who could not manage her solo at the 'usual' place and seemed to stick there. Her difficulty was only in the 'rounding out' and there were no problems with her general flying or circuit work. Change of flying school and they took the attitude of leaving it 'til later but continue with instruction. She has now completed most of the course including navigation work and is coming up to 80 hours, still hasn't gone solo (although this is now more weather related than her ability). Point is that she is a really good flyer and loves every minute of her flying. Theoretically she should have been 'dropped' a long time ago but in practice she is having a great time.
I am also aware of a very elderly man who will never get to fly on his own - and he knows it - but he still has his regular 'lessons'.
I learned with my own flying that you have to forget about targets, it's not a competition - it's about personal fulfillment and enjoyment.
I am also aware of a very elderly man who will never get to fly on his own - and he knows it - but he still has his regular 'lessons'.
I learned with my own flying that you have to forget about targets, it's not a competition - it's about personal fulfillment and enjoyment.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: London
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
> e.g. 30 hours still unable to get around the circuit safely and land ??
> let's not waste any more time and money.
Interesting opinion.
I was one of those students who took more than 30 hours to first solo (haven't got my log book here, but it was somewhere between 35-45 hours). There were a few reasons, such as fragmented training (for financial reasons). I took a long time to start landing consistently. Also, as I discovered through later discussion with some of the instructors at the school, the instructor I spent my formative first 20 or so hours with was also a significant contributory factor - and my recollection is that my ability changed quite quickly when he left and I started with others (but let's forget all that for now).
Anyhow, I got through, got my license, I've done a nice bit of flying, I'm just about to go for some night training, .... I've had a few check flights where my flying has been generally comented on as being pretty good for a low hours PPL.
I think giving up on someone after 30 hours because you see it as a "Waste of time and money" is harsh. If people aren't natural pilots, do you think they they can never be trained to be good pilots?. Sure, it takes time and patience and, yes, money - but if that's alright with the student, surely it should be alright with the instructor.
Foxmouth: yes, getting out of the circuit bashing and actually doing some flying makes a big difference. It reminds you why you started flying in the first place, which after 20+ hours in a circuit you can soon forget.
> let's not waste any more time and money.
Interesting opinion.
I was one of those students who took more than 30 hours to first solo (haven't got my log book here, but it was somewhere between 35-45 hours). There were a few reasons, such as fragmented training (for financial reasons). I took a long time to start landing consistently. Also, as I discovered through later discussion with some of the instructors at the school, the instructor I spent my formative first 20 or so hours with was also a significant contributory factor - and my recollection is that my ability changed quite quickly when he left and I started with others (but let's forget all that for now).
Anyhow, I got through, got my license, I've done a nice bit of flying, I'm just about to go for some night training, .... I've had a few check flights where my flying has been generally comented on as being pretty good for a low hours PPL.
I think giving up on someone after 30 hours because you see it as a "Waste of time and money" is harsh. If people aren't natural pilots, do you think they they can never be trained to be good pilots?. Sure, it takes time and patience and, yes, money - but if that's alright with the student, surely it should be alright with the instructor.
Foxmouth: yes, getting out of the circuit bashing and actually doing some flying makes a big difference. It reminds you why you started flying in the first place, which after 20+ hours in a circuit you can soon forget.
Last edited by wonko the sane; 29th Nov 2005 at 12:59.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: essex
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK Let me clarify
What if I said 1000 hours of circuit bashing and still can't land. The number is not the important point, the point is that flying is definitely not for everybody. There are some (not many) who have very poor coordination, concentration, eyesight, motor skills or just cannot make a decision WHATEVER it is there are people out there who cannot safely fly an aircraft solo.
I am simply saying that if we have an assumption that nobody gets washed out then are we being realistic ? On the subject of naff instructors have a look at the failure rates for FI courses, same rules apply, there are some people who should not be qualified instructors because they haven't put the time in to gain experience and have simply paid for the rating.
What if I said 1000 hours of circuit bashing and still can't land. The number is not the important point, the point is that flying is definitely not for everybody. There are some (not many) who have very poor coordination, concentration, eyesight, motor skills or just cannot make a decision WHATEVER it is there are people out there who cannot safely fly an aircraft solo.
I am simply saying that if we have an assumption that nobody gets washed out then are we being realistic ? On the subject of naff instructors have a look at the failure rates for FI courses, same rules apply, there are some people who should not be qualified instructors because they haven't put the time in to gain experience and have simply paid for the rating.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Age: 85
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
unfased..what you say may be correct for those whose flight training is towards a career but for many it is a hobby and they do it, and pay for it, as a way of enjoying themselves.
As a skilled instructor (which I assume you are) are you too 'big' to allow yourself to give training to people who are not quick learners but are prepared to subsidise your earnings on condition that you give them the flight experience and training that they ask for? They are not doing it because you are forcing them, they are doing it because they are prepared to pay for the experience which, I assume indicates both their enjoyment of the sessons and their appreciation of their own limitations.
My previous point about the elderly gentleman who will never fly on his own but loves his regular lesson - would you refuse to take him up just because he will never go solo?
As a skilled instructor (which I assume you are) are you too 'big' to allow yourself to give training to people who are not quick learners but are prepared to subsidise your earnings on condition that you give them the flight experience and training that they ask for? They are not doing it because you are forcing them, they are doing it because they are prepared to pay for the experience which, I assume indicates both their enjoyment of the sessons and their appreciation of their own limitations.
My previous point about the elderly gentleman who will never fly on his own but loves his regular lesson - would you refuse to take him up just because he will never go solo?
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: NT
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
> e.g. 30 hours still unable to get around the circuit safely and land ??
I was one of those. It took me 32 hours before going solo, nearly 100 hours to get ppl. I thought I was hopeless and wondered whether I was wasting my time and money. Just a slow learner I think because I perservered and got a CPL. When I spoke to the Chief Flying Instructor of my school about training to be an instructor I got a job offer on the spot, completed the training and now work as a flying instructor.
Some poeple take longer to pick things up than others but now I know not to write poeple off too early.
I was one of those. It took me 32 hours before going solo, nearly 100 hours to get ppl. I thought I was hopeless and wondered whether I was wasting my time and money. Just a slow learner I think because I perservered and got a CPL. When I spoke to the Chief Flying Instructor of my school about training to be an instructor I got a job offer on the spot, completed the training and now work as a flying instructor.
Some poeple take longer to pick things up than others but now I know not to write poeple off too early.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: essex
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys, I have thought many students of all ages (one lady of 70plus). I realise that students are all different and learn at different paces. No I am not too "big" to teach somebody who is going to take a lot of TLC.
What I am saying is that there are some people who just will not be able to do it for whatever reason (most likely a funadmental problem which may be medically related / NPPL medical standards are minimal).
99% of people will get with enough time, money and determination HOWEVER there are a very small number who won't pass muster and who would be bloody dangerous to themselves and others if let loose in an aircraft.
These people know themselves that they have a problem and will readily admit that if you are open and honest with them and have tried hard and exhausted all possible avenues. You guy's are obviously not in that category.
What I am saying is that there are some people who just will not be able to do it for whatever reason (most likely a funadmental problem which may be medically related / NPPL medical standards are minimal).
99% of people will get with enough time, money and determination HOWEVER there are a very small number who won't pass muster and who would be bloody dangerous to themselves and others if let loose in an aircraft.
These people know themselves that they have a problem and will readily admit that if you are open and honest with them and have tried hard and exhausted all possible avenues. You guy's are obviously not in that category.
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 4,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmm, very interesting discussion.
I think this thread has veered away from what Sans Anoraque was asking initially? If I understood him correctly, he was asking about students who thought they were far better than they actually were?
However, since we're now on the subject of people who are just slow learners, how about my ex-student? I would describe him as an older gentleman, but certainly not elderly, and very capable of going solo. His problem was that he would come along for a lesson every week or two. Often he would make progress, but he would also often go backwards. He used to get frustrated with himself because he could not see the progress when he did make progress, and was not sure what he needed to do to go solo.
I suggested that he was quite capable of aquiring the necessary skills, but he lacked continuity in his training, and that's why he hit a brick wall. I recommended that he take a couple of months off, and put aside all the money he would have spent on flying in that time. Then, he should come back to me and book two flights a day, for a full week, with the money he saved. I pretty much promised him that he would be solo by the end of the week.
Unfortunately, he decided not to take me up on my advice, and I haven't seen him for quite some time - all because he didn't have the self-belief that he was capable of soloing.
FFF
------------------
I think this thread has veered away from what Sans Anoraque was asking initially? If I understood him correctly, he was asking about students who thought they were far better than they actually were?
(And presumably, your opinion of their abilities is not necessarily accepted by them)
I suggested that he was quite capable of aquiring the necessary skills, but he lacked continuity in his training, and that's why he hit a brick wall. I recommended that he take a couple of months off, and put aside all the money he would have spent on flying in that time. Then, he should come back to me and book two flights a day, for a full week, with the money he saved. I pretty much promised him that he would be solo by the end of the week.
Unfortunately, he decided not to take me up on my advice, and I haven't seen him for quite some time - all because he didn't have the self-belief that he was capable of soloing.
FFF
------------------
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unable to solo
Two.
A gentleman who's father was head of 'secret police' for a north african state.
A young lady who was the perfect student, mind like Einstein, (home address in a palace), wonderful personality but she just could not fly.
Thats in about 3 thou instructing hours.
The first refused to accept the situation and always blamed it on the instructors (he got thru lots). Supprisingly he liked me even though I eventualy got him chopped - downwind, DME read 6, still heading on crosswind. That was after about 40 hours. He went on to train as an aircraft engineer. The lady was very realistic and worried about spending so much of her fathers money, she left voluntarily after about 18 hours.
A gentleman who's father was head of 'secret police' for a north african state.
A young lady who was the perfect student, mind like Einstein, (home address in a palace), wonderful personality but she just could not fly.
Thats in about 3 thou instructing hours.
The first refused to accept the situation and always blamed it on the instructors (he got thru lots). Supprisingly he liked me even though I eventualy got him chopped - downwind, DME read 6, still heading on crosswind. That was after about 40 hours. He went on to train as an aircraft engineer. The lady was very realistic and worried about spending so much of her fathers money, she left voluntarily after about 18 hours.
An acquaintance of mine who runs a microlight school once had a student take 110 hours to pass their PPL, of which about 70 were to go solo.
A couple of hours after getting his licence, he bought his own aeroplane and had an EFATO taking-off from a strip. Then put it down, perfectly along the furrows of the ploughed field off the end of the runway without a scratch - an impressive piece of flying by any standard.
There's always hope!
G
A couple of hours after getting his licence, he bought his own aeroplane and had an EFATO taking-off from a strip. Then put it down, perfectly along the furrows of the ploughed field off the end of the runway without a scratch - an impressive piece of flying by any standard.
There's always hope!
G
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: West London
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FFF - don't worry about it going slightly off topic. I'm finding it interesting reading as well.
In the same way no one ever admits to being a bad driver, I assumed there may well be some flying students (males mostly) who couldn't accept that they should never be allowed in charge of a flying machine. Or perhaps the 'cocoon' effect is stronger in cars?
In the same way no one ever admits to being a bad driver, I assumed there may well be some flying students (males mostly) who couldn't accept that they should never be allowed in charge of a flying machine. Or perhaps the 'cocoon' effect is stronger in cars?
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: essex
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flying For Fun
I don't think that the subject has veered off topic. Do you have students who, for whatever reason, are just incapable of going solo? pretty clear to me what the question is.
Your chap who didn't return may well have had the determination - just not the Dosh.
Yes it is true that given enough hours and training most people will achieve the required standard BUT.....some are unable to fly competently on their own for whatever reason. I am talking about getting people fit for SOLO flying, not babysitting those who just want to fly with other PPL's for whatever reason.
I don't think that the subject has veered off topic. Do you have students who, for whatever reason, are just incapable of going solo? pretty clear to me what the question is.
Your chap who didn't return may well have had the determination - just not the Dosh.
Yes it is true that given enough hours and training most people will achieve the required standard BUT.....some are unable to fly competently on their own for whatever reason. I am talking about getting people fit for SOLO flying, not babysitting those who just want to fly with other PPL's for whatever reason.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Age: 85
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am talking about getting people fit for SOLO flying, not babysitting those who just want to fly with other PPL's for whatever reason.
I think I would be looking for an instructor who was prepared to share his own wonder of flying with me, no matter how slow a learner I was.
I just checked my old logbook and I went solo after 13 hours but I was 63 at the time.
I do, however, know first hand about the frustrations of getting solo from the determination of my lovely wife - you tell her to stop her training and she say
I think I would be looking for an instructor who was prepared to share his own wonder of flying with me, no matter how slow a learner I was.
I just checked my old logbook and I went solo after 13 hours but I was 63 at the time.
I do, however, know first hand about the frustrations of getting solo from the determination of my lovely wife - you tell her to stop her training and she say
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: essex
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FUNFLY
, no matter how slow a learner I was.
I am not talking about slow learners, I am talking a minute minority who cannot fly solo for whatever reason. As a flying instructor I have a duty of care and will not sign somebody fit solo unless I am confident that they will not get killed, or kill somebody else.
If your determined wife turned up for a lesson I would be very pleased as I assume that her determination means that the homework has been completed, she is passing ground exams and has bothered to get a medical. She would definitely be fun to teach.
Lets look at the candidate from hell......No study "I am too busy and haven't got any free time", How are you this morning Bloggs? "absolutely knackered I had a late session at the pub and still have the shakes", did you plan a short nav trip "No", Bloggs the aircraft is right in front of your nose !!!!Oh dear we may need to review the circuit as you seem to think that it is a cross country flight whilst evading enemy fighters on our tail. Bloggs exits the aircraft yawning after an hour of very dangerous yaw and roll manouvers at 50 feet agl nowhere near the runway threshold.
I kid you not ! - And I am supposed to give this guy 100% Not unless I'm an aviation prostitute
, no matter how slow a learner I was.
I am not talking about slow learners, I am talking a minute minority who cannot fly solo for whatever reason. As a flying instructor I have a duty of care and will not sign somebody fit solo unless I am confident that they will not get killed, or kill somebody else.
If your determined wife turned up for a lesson I would be very pleased as I assume that her determination means that the homework has been completed, she is passing ground exams and has bothered to get a medical. She would definitely be fun to teach.
Lets look at the candidate from hell......No study "I am too busy and haven't got any free time", How are you this morning Bloggs? "absolutely knackered I had a late session at the pub and still have the shakes", did you plan a short nav trip "No", Bloggs the aircraft is right in front of your nose !!!!Oh dear we may need to review the circuit as you seem to think that it is a cross country flight whilst evading enemy fighters on our tail. Bloggs exits the aircraft yawning after an hour of very dangerous yaw and roll manouvers at 50 feet agl nowhere near the runway threshold.
I kid you not ! - And I am supposed to give this guy 100% Not unless I'm an aviation prostitute
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Oop North, UK
Posts: 3,076
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the important thing in all these cases is that the student is advised about the situation, there are some schools that will just keep taking peoples money without saying anything and IMHO this is unethical. If you have explained the situation and the student wants to continue that is fine. This even applies to those who are nightmare students, they can either listen to what you say and sort it out, or ignore it in which case they just don't get to solo standard - and I quite agree that you no longer need to give 100% - if they don't want to why should you?
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Age: 85
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
UNFAZED
Bit of a truce here 'cos I'm not getting at you and I understand fully where you are coming from.
My wife has had a problem landing - well not really landings just rounding out - try as she does she just cannot get it to 'click'! and of course the more people who tell her the 'trick' of rounding out the more difficult she finds it.
She has done all her exams and all her training up to XC but at 80 hours this little bit has eluded her.
Currently she is with the MSF and they have taken the attitude 'let's skip that bit and carry on with your training then come back to it later'. She has ended up a competent flyer and now feels ready to fly on her own, I think it is only the weather that is preventing this.
It would have been very easy for an instructor to have told her a long time ago to give up if the opinion was based only on her ability (or lack of it) to go solo.
I suppose you may consider that she is actually capable of 'flying' solo, what she can't crack is 'rounding out' in the landing phase
I accept that your own observations on ability would be based on the student's overall flying ability and not just one part where something hasn't 'clicked'. In which case I agree that your reservations should be passed on and the student would then have to make his/her own descision about their continuation.
I do think, however, that if you are asked to give instruction to a person who is aware that they will never qualify then you should be happy to do this and not consider it a prostitution. You will achieve a 'result' not necessarily an exam pass but the result that the person concerned wanted. After all you are happy (I assume) to give 'air experiences' to many people who have no intention to study for a flying qualification
Bit of a truce here 'cos I'm not getting at you and I understand fully where you are coming from.
My wife has had a problem landing - well not really landings just rounding out - try as she does she just cannot get it to 'click'! and of course the more people who tell her the 'trick' of rounding out the more difficult she finds it.
She has done all her exams and all her training up to XC but at 80 hours this little bit has eluded her.
Currently she is with the MSF and they have taken the attitude 'let's skip that bit and carry on with your training then come back to it later'. She has ended up a competent flyer and now feels ready to fly on her own, I think it is only the weather that is preventing this.
It would have been very easy for an instructor to have told her a long time ago to give up if the opinion was based only on her ability (or lack of it) to go solo.
I suppose you may consider that she is actually capable of 'flying' solo, what she can't crack is 'rounding out' in the landing phase
I accept that your own observations on ability would be based on the student's overall flying ability and not just one part where something hasn't 'clicked'. In which case I agree that your reservations should be passed on and the student would then have to make his/her own descision about their continuation.
I do think, however, that if you are asked to give instruction to a person who is aware that they will never qualify then you should be happy to do this and not consider it a prostitution. You will achieve a 'result' not necessarily an exam pass but the result that the person concerned wanted. After all you are happy (I assume) to give 'air experiences' to many people who have no intention to study for a flying qualification