How often?
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Funfly
Tell your wife to forget flaring and simply approach at a very gentle ROD, when she gets to the numbers chop the power and carry out a carrier deck landing with no flare. Problem solved !
Seriously though - Some just cannot make it due to medical, attitude, lack of determination, etc etc etc
If somebody is happy to fly knowing that then not a problem. Might be a smarter idea for them to save some money and fly with a club PPL on a coat share basis. If money is no object then happy to keep going but need to be honest about the specific training "contract" and the "end game"
Tell your wife to forget flaring and simply approach at a very gentle ROD, when she gets to the numbers chop the power and carry out a carrier deck landing with no flare. Problem solved !
Seriously though - Some just cannot make it due to medical, attitude, lack of determination, etc etc etc
If somebody is happy to fly knowing that then not a problem. Might be a smarter idea for them to save some money and fly with a club PPL on a coat share basis. If money is no object then happy to keep going but need to be honest about the specific training "contract" and the "end game"
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G'day guys!
Just while we're (sort of) on the topic, a good mate of mine is having a bit of trouble with his flying school in SA.
Shes feeling a bit de-motivated (nearing the end of her instructor training) and she told me that the CFI pulled her into a meeting with him and basically told her that theres been no progress as of late and to give up on the instructor stuff and go to the country to get some charter experience. Reason shes not motivated (anymore) is because after every lesson its just one booking (sometimes none) after another, they don't even bother to book in a flight test for her (before you say "thats because he wasn't ready"......they had never booked her a test from day one). Basically she doesn't see an end to her training, therefore not motivated, although determined to get it, to do well, as a result her standards dropped. As i said before CFI suggested that she go to the country to get charter and give up on instructor training. My question to you instructors is, can a flying school refuse to train a student to the required standard despite the student not wanting to give up?
Just while we're (sort of) on the topic, a good mate of mine is having a bit of trouble with his flying school in SA.
Shes feeling a bit de-motivated (nearing the end of her instructor training) and she told me that the CFI pulled her into a meeting with him and basically told her that theres been no progress as of late and to give up on the instructor stuff and go to the country to get some charter experience. Reason shes not motivated (anymore) is because after every lesson its just one booking (sometimes none) after another, they don't even bother to book in a flight test for her (before you say "thats because he wasn't ready"......they had never booked her a test from day one). Basically she doesn't see an end to her training, therefore not motivated, although determined to get it, to do well, as a result her standards dropped. As i said before CFI suggested that she go to the country to get charter and give up on instructor training. My question to you instructors is, can a flying school refuse to train a student to the required standard despite the student not wanting to give up?
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Yep you can always refuse custom .
But as i was holding back with other people on this thread for saying its impossible to teach some people how to fly. I have heard similar comments with teaching people how to drive.
I have had the dubious ticket to check ride disabled pilots which i though was in the remit of FIE but isn't its through one bloke in the medical branch at gatwick. Who i might add through my dealings with him is a top bloke and and has only one thing in his mind which is get people flying.
I persoanlly have only missed with a student once which was more a personality clash and an end of career as an instructor thing than anything to do with the student.
I earned quite a bit of money dealing with the cast offs from other schools which couldn't be arsed with the addition effort working out what the student needed to be able to learn.
GAwd that Pink headset thread lasted most of my career as an instructor. And even though most of you though she was a dizzy bint that lady has had flights in machines i could only dream about . And the chaps taking her up have comment **** me she can handle the machine and hold an attitude. And thats anything up to areo's in Yaks.
the hard ones give the most job stisfaction.
MJ
BTw does anyone have the email for the CFI for the disabled flying club as i am missing instructing these days and i can' think of a nicer way to spend fanny about in aircraft unpayed
But as i was holding back with other people on this thread for saying its impossible to teach some people how to fly. I have heard similar comments with teaching people how to drive.
I have had the dubious ticket to check ride disabled pilots which i though was in the remit of FIE but isn't its through one bloke in the medical branch at gatwick. Who i might add through my dealings with him is a top bloke and and has only one thing in his mind which is get people flying.
I persoanlly have only missed with a student once which was more a personality clash and an end of career as an instructor thing than anything to do with the student.
I earned quite a bit of money dealing with the cast offs from other schools which couldn't be arsed with the addition effort working out what the student needed to be able to learn.
GAwd that Pink headset thread lasted most of my career as an instructor. And even though most of you though she was a dizzy bint that lady has had flights in machines i could only dream about . And the chaps taking her up have comment **** me she can handle the machine and hold an attitude. And thats anything up to areo's in Yaks.
the hard ones give the most job stisfaction.
MJ
BTw does anyone have the email for the CFI for the disabled flying club as i am missing instructing these days and i can' think of a nicer way to spend fanny about in aircraft unpayed
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Planemad_bk,
Different schools work in different ways, obviously, but I have never had a test booked for me until I was ready for the test, and I try never to book tests for my students until they are ready for them.
Right now, my school has two students who are friends, neither of whom has flown a single-engined aircraft for over 7 years. Both of them had multi-engine IRs until around two years ago, and both of them are very good pilots. The only areas of their flying which need anything more than a quick brushing up are, not surprisingly, PFLs and VFR navigation. I say "not surprisingly", because almost all of their "recent" flying has been multi-engined IFR, hence no practice of PFLs nor of VFR nav.
Both of these students are very keen to get their renewal tests done asap, to the point that they are insisting we book their tests for dates by which they can not realistically expect to have reached the expected standard. In one case, if every lesson which the student has booked goes without any weather problems, and without having to repeat anything, he still will not have covered everything which we agreed needs to be covered before the date he has arranged for his test.
As an instructor, all I can do in this situation is continue to raise the matter with management to try to stop people from being able to book tests until they are ready (but management don't seem to care), or brief the examiner as to the lack of readiness of the student.
As a student, your friend has two choices. Either believe that she is not ready for her test yet, and trust her instructors to get her ready in however much time it takes. Or, if she believes her instructors are failing her (either because their technique isn't resulting in her making progress, or because they are deliberately extending the length of her course to make more money for themselves), she should find another school. But there is absolutely no point putting pressure on the school for her to take her test if she is not ready.
FFF
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PS - After typing all this, a further thought occurs to me. If your friend is pushing for a test date, but the school think she is a long way off, maybe she genuinely doesn't understand what is required of her, or how far away from test standard she is? The skills required for being an instructor are not flying skills. I wonder if she thinks her flying is fine, and most probably it is - but the reason she is not ready for her test yet is because of her teaching skills not being up to scratch? If she doesn't realise this, she won't be in a position to fix it. Just a thought.....
Different schools work in different ways, obviously, but I have never had a test booked for me until I was ready for the test, and I try never to book tests for my students until they are ready for them.
Right now, my school has two students who are friends, neither of whom has flown a single-engined aircraft for over 7 years. Both of them had multi-engine IRs until around two years ago, and both of them are very good pilots. The only areas of their flying which need anything more than a quick brushing up are, not surprisingly, PFLs and VFR navigation. I say "not surprisingly", because almost all of their "recent" flying has been multi-engined IFR, hence no practice of PFLs nor of VFR nav.
Both of these students are very keen to get their renewal tests done asap, to the point that they are insisting we book their tests for dates by which they can not realistically expect to have reached the expected standard. In one case, if every lesson which the student has booked goes without any weather problems, and without having to repeat anything, he still will not have covered everything which we agreed needs to be covered before the date he has arranged for his test.
As an instructor, all I can do in this situation is continue to raise the matter with management to try to stop people from being able to book tests until they are ready (but management don't seem to care), or brief the examiner as to the lack of readiness of the student.
As a student, your friend has two choices. Either believe that she is not ready for her test yet, and trust her instructors to get her ready in however much time it takes. Or, if she believes her instructors are failing her (either because their technique isn't resulting in her making progress, or because they are deliberately extending the length of her course to make more money for themselves), she should find another school. But there is absolutely no point putting pressure on the school for her to take her test if she is not ready.
FFF
----------------
PS - After typing all this, a further thought occurs to me. If your friend is pushing for a test date, but the school think she is a long way off, maybe she genuinely doesn't understand what is required of her, or how far away from test standard she is? The skills required for being an instructor are not flying skills. I wonder if she thinks her flying is fine, and most probably it is - but the reason she is not ready for her test yet is because of her teaching skills not being up to scratch? If she doesn't realise this, she won't be in a position to fix it. Just a thought.....
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Planemad_bk
I might be totally wrong but based on the small bit of info I would hazard a guess and say that your friends instructor has identified a lack of flying experience, we often forget that experience gained flying from a to b in different seasons and on different types of flights is what is needed to pass along to students (i.e. not just technical skills). This is where we build up a mental database for good decision making.
Sounds like your friends instructor is saying go and get some real world experience first. Refreshing really as most others simply take the money and run.
I might be totally wrong but based on the small bit of info I would hazard a guess and say that your friends instructor has identified a lack of flying experience, we often forget that experience gained flying from a to b in different seasons and on different types of flights is what is needed to pass along to students (i.e. not just technical skills). This is where we build up a mental database for good decision making.
Sounds like your friends instructor is saying go and get some real world experience first. Refreshing really as most others simply take the money and run.
The Original Whirly
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I too was one of "those" students. When doing my PPL(A), it took me 48 hours to go solo, 90 to get my PPL. At the time, I just thought I was a below average pilot, though it was hard for me to accept that. But I had loads of determination and enough money, and I hated the idea of giving up.
Now, however, 8 years later, with a PPL(A), CPL(H), FI(H) and around 750 hours TT, I have a clearer idea of why things happened as they did....
1) It's true that I wasn't a natural pilot. My first instructor told me early on that I'd make it as I had lots of determination, but it would take me more than the minimum hours. He wanted to make sure I had enough money - no problem with that, and he wasn't being critical.
2) My next instructor caused most of the problems. Young, inexperienced, and not very good with people, he'd be nice as anything one minute, quite abrasive the next. To cut a long story short, I annoyed him with my constant difficulties in learning to land, and he ended up completely destroying my confidence. I gritted my teeth and carried on, but that's not a good way to learn to fly.
3) I tried other instructors; the school by then realised there was problem, and to a certain extent a personality clash. For a while nothing seemed to work. I think I'd got into the habit of expecting not to be able to land - and I couldn't. The chap who eventually got me to solo standard was very quiet, very persistent, and non-critical, and that eventually worked for me. But the early destruction of my confidence affected the whole course, and way, way afterwards - possibly still affects me.
4) I now realise the basic problem. I have fairly poor depth and distance perception. Even after driving for years and years, I find overtaking hard, as I can't easily judge the distance of cars coming the other way. I know this, and compensate for it by being extra careful. If anyone had sorted out the problem in my flying early on - and it wouldn't have been that hard - I think it would have been overcome much, much earlier. I remember once being told was much too low on final, and saying I just couldn't tell. But no-one picked up on this as the basic problem; we just circuit-bashed, and extra hours didn't help.
I heard afterwards that various people thought I wouldn't make it. I've met other pilots who've been told the same thing; I can think of two are are now instructors. I think my experiences make me a better instructor; it's hard to appreciate problems if you found something easy. So nothing has been wasted, but it could have been made easier. And I've been told that most people to whom this sort of thing happens give up - what a waste!
Anyway, possibly there are people who can never go solo; I don't know. Perhaps they should be told this; I'm not sure. But I think you need to look at WHY they're having such difficulty, as that's the most important thing.
Now, however, 8 years later, with a PPL(A), CPL(H), FI(H) and around 750 hours TT, I have a clearer idea of why things happened as they did....
1) It's true that I wasn't a natural pilot. My first instructor told me early on that I'd make it as I had lots of determination, but it would take me more than the minimum hours. He wanted to make sure I had enough money - no problem with that, and he wasn't being critical.
2) My next instructor caused most of the problems. Young, inexperienced, and not very good with people, he'd be nice as anything one minute, quite abrasive the next. To cut a long story short, I annoyed him with my constant difficulties in learning to land, and he ended up completely destroying my confidence. I gritted my teeth and carried on, but that's not a good way to learn to fly.
3) I tried other instructors; the school by then realised there was problem, and to a certain extent a personality clash. For a while nothing seemed to work. I think I'd got into the habit of expecting not to be able to land - and I couldn't. The chap who eventually got me to solo standard was very quiet, very persistent, and non-critical, and that eventually worked for me. But the early destruction of my confidence affected the whole course, and way, way afterwards - possibly still affects me.
4) I now realise the basic problem. I have fairly poor depth and distance perception. Even after driving for years and years, I find overtaking hard, as I can't easily judge the distance of cars coming the other way. I know this, and compensate for it by being extra careful. If anyone had sorted out the problem in my flying early on - and it wouldn't have been that hard - I think it would have been overcome much, much earlier. I remember once being told was much too low on final, and saying I just couldn't tell. But no-one picked up on this as the basic problem; we just circuit-bashed, and extra hours didn't help.
I heard afterwards that various people thought I wouldn't make it. I've met other pilots who've been told the same thing; I can think of two are are now instructors. I think my experiences make me a better instructor; it's hard to appreciate problems if you found something easy. So nothing has been wasted, but it could have been made easier. And I've been told that most people to whom this sort of thing happens give up - what a waste!
Anyway, possibly there are people who can never go solo; I don't know. Perhaps they should be told this; I'm not sure. But I think you need to look at WHY they're having such difficulty, as that's the most important thing.
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I now realise the basic problem. I have fairly poor depth and distance perception. Even after driving for years and years, I find overtaking hard, as I can't easily judge the distance of cars coming the other way. I know this, and compensate for it by being extra careful.
Whirlybird - Just curious as to how you overcame this problem for flying helicopters ?
Or was your depth perception problem a "perceived" problem ? i.e. can't be a problem if you now hover and fly with no problem ???
Whirlybird - Just curious as to how you overcame this problem for flying helicopters ?
Or was your depth perception problem a "perceived" problem ? i.e. can't be a problem if you now hover and fly with no problem ???
The Original Whirly
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unfazed,
Practice, practice, more practice, and keep in practice! That's the only way. Which means I'm much better than I used to be.
For "ordinary" flying it's no big deal. But I suspect I still find it harder than a lot of people to land in tight confined areas, and to judge my height for autorotative landings...hard to say though, as we all find those sort of things difficult. As with anything, I bear it in mind, now I know where the difficulty lies. This meant I refused to fly into a difficult hotel landing site quite recently, in a type I hadn't flown for a while, in difficult wind conditions. Maybe someone else would have done it. But I know my capabilities and limitations, and safety comes first. I'm not the world's greatest helicopter pilot, and probably never will be, but that's not the point.
When I was doing my PPL(A) if someone had recognised the problem, or even told me to look for a specific difficulty, I think I could have recognised it and worked with it, and things would have been a little easier.
Practice, practice, more practice, and keep in practice! That's the only way. Which means I'm much better than I used to be.
For "ordinary" flying it's no big deal. But I suspect I still find it harder than a lot of people to land in tight confined areas, and to judge my height for autorotative landings...hard to say though, as we all find those sort of things difficult. As with anything, I bear it in mind, now I know where the difficulty lies. This meant I refused to fly into a difficult hotel landing site quite recently, in a type I hadn't flown for a while, in difficult wind conditions. Maybe someone else would have done it. But I know my capabilities and limitations, and safety comes first. I'm not the world's greatest helicopter pilot, and probably never will be, but that's not the point.
When I was doing my PPL(A) if someone had recognised the problem, or even told me to look for a specific difficulty, I think I could have recognised it and worked with it, and things would have been a little easier.
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I have found with slow learners that it is often the strange syllabus with which we are supposed to stick to that causes sticking points. Some people learn better in a different order of things. For example, there is the serious lack of rudder usage in the UK, and I believe that is down to the lateness in to which it is introduced.
If someone has learned in a tail dragger then they have had to learn it earlier and usually they are better handling pilots when it comes to CPL.
I teach right from trial lesson that the throttle never moves without a rudder input and the control wheel/ stick never moves without a rudder input. In that way they don't know that there is an option.
Given that directive from the start it is just a matter of finesse as the training progresses.
I have had 'impossible students' but they all seem to get it eventually. I also find a good method is to get the student to tell or teach me out loud what they are doing as they are doing it (after I have shown them, of course)...then I know whether they have understood it, rather than me repeating or sitting in silence
Find out what the person does or is interested in then change the teaching method to use analagies from their hobby or job.
If someone has learned in a tail dragger then they have had to learn it earlier and usually they are better handling pilots when it comes to CPL.
I teach right from trial lesson that the throttle never moves without a rudder input and the control wheel/ stick never moves without a rudder input. In that way they don't know that there is an option.
Given that directive from the start it is just a matter of finesse as the training progresses.
I have had 'impossible students' but they all seem to get it eventually. I also find a good method is to get the student to tell or teach me out loud what they are doing as they are doing it (after I have shown them, of course)...then I know whether they have understood it, rather than me repeating or sitting in silence
Find out what the person does or is interested in then change the teaching method to use analagies from their hobby or job.
