GAPAN proposes new Instructors Licence
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Between Galaxies
Age: 39
Posts: 453
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GAPAN proposes new Instructors Licence
Hi guys - Forgive me if this has been covered before, a search brought up nothing for me.
I was just looking through the news bit on Flyer and read this....
"The Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators (GAPAN) Instructor sub-committee has been looking at various issues relating to flying instruction.
One of their major proposals is the creation of a new Instructors licence, which would focus on training specifically for the purpose of teaching flying.
A CPL would no longer be a prerequisite.
They recomend flying training should have far more emphasis on safety, safe standardised techniques and recognition of potentially hazardous situations and should include analysis of accident reports to learn how to avoid repetition of such errors.
And they say the some instructors leave a lot to be desired - there is no place in a cockpit for aggression, bullying, bad language; nor is it pleasant to share the confined space with the heavy smoker or garlic chewer!
A CPL would no longer be a prerequisite"
What does this mean in terms of going commercial?
As I understand, you need a CPL to instruct because you're getting paid for your teaching.... would this new licence come in as a quick (maybe less expensive) route for instructors and then maybe appeal to Career Instructors?
Any thoughts?
I was just looking through the news bit on Flyer and read this....
"The Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators (GAPAN) Instructor sub-committee has been looking at various issues relating to flying instruction.
One of their major proposals is the creation of a new Instructors licence, which would focus on training specifically for the purpose of teaching flying.
A CPL would no longer be a prerequisite.
They recomend flying training should have far more emphasis on safety, safe standardised techniques and recognition of potentially hazardous situations and should include analysis of accident reports to learn how to avoid repetition of such errors.
And they say the some instructors leave a lot to be desired - there is no place in a cockpit for aggression, bullying, bad language; nor is it pleasant to share the confined space with the heavy smoker or garlic chewer!
A CPL would no longer be a prerequisite"
What does this mean in terms of going commercial?
As I understand, you need a CPL to instruct because you're getting paid for your teaching.... would this new licence come in as a quick (maybe less expensive) route for instructors and then maybe appeal to Career Instructors?
Any thoughts?
1. It is not official GAPAN policy, merely a suggestion from the Instructor sub-committee which reports to the Education and Training Committee.
2. The concern is over the quality of flight instructors and the desire to open a career path for professional flight instructors.
3. Some feel that 'here today, going asap to the airlines' hours-builder FIs lower the status of flight instructors.
4. Several organisations are considering proposals to include the right to give remunerated flight instruction as part of the FI Rating privileges (as it currently is for certain aircraft), not simply part of the CPL privileges. Hence a PPL/FI might one day be permitted to give remunerated flight instruction as was once the case. The GAPAN instructor committee are thinking of proposing a different licence rather than modifying FI Rating privileges.
5. There is absolutely no intention of reducing the standards required of a flight instructor. The content of the FI training course would need to be increased to cover relevant technical and regulatory knowledge, but not the entire CPL theory knowledge. There would be a much greater emphasis on personal qualities, the ability to impart instruction and instructional technique than there is at present - the course would certainly be 'harder' but the end product would be a sound FI whose ambitions lie in the field of flight instruction.
6. Were this to come about, we would hopefully have some sound PPL/FIs back, many of whom would have other day jobs, perhaps choosing to instruct one or two days per week or at weekends. The number of hours builders whose life consists of a series of 'trail lessons' whilst they build up hours in order to run off to some airline, never to instruct again, would reduce significantly. The PPL training world would end up with a larger number of FIs who actually want to instruct, rather than FIs who are using their ratings for 'free' hours building. But, of course, having spent a few years instructing, there would be no reason why a PPL/FI couldn't then embark upon CPL qualification.
2. The concern is over the quality of flight instructors and the desire to open a career path for professional flight instructors.
3. Some feel that 'here today, going asap to the airlines' hours-builder FIs lower the status of flight instructors.
4. Several organisations are considering proposals to include the right to give remunerated flight instruction as part of the FI Rating privileges (as it currently is for certain aircraft), not simply part of the CPL privileges. Hence a PPL/FI might one day be permitted to give remunerated flight instruction as was once the case. The GAPAN instructor committee are thinking of proposing a different licence rather than modifying FI Rating privileges.
5. There is absolutely no intention of reducing the standards required of a flight instructor. The content of the FI training course would need to be increased to cover relevant technical and regulatory knowledge, but not the entire CPL theory knowledge. There would be a much greater emphasis on personal qualities, the ability to impart instruction and instructional technique than there is at present - the course would certainly be 'harder' but the end product would be a sound FI whose ambitions lie in the field of flight instruction.
6. Were this to come about, we would hopefully have some sound PPL/FIs back, many of whom would have other day jobs, perhaps choosing to instruct one or two days per week or at weekends. The number of hours builders whose life consists of a series of 'trail lessons' whilst they build up hours in order to run off to some airline, never to instruct again, would reduce significantly. The PPL training world would end up with a larger number of FIs who actually want to instruct, rather than FIs who are using their ratings for 'free' hours building. But, of course, having spent a few years instructing, there would be no reason why a PPL/FI couldn't then embark upon CPL qualification.
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Northampton
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It still begs the question, though, where would the 'career' wage come from for the 'career' flying instructor? Don't get me wrong: I think the idea's worth looking at, but I think remuneration will always be a problem.
Regards, GT.
Regards, GT.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 955
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Will GAPAN be paying compensation to all those who had to jump through all these uneccessary hoops in order to be JAA instructors?
If this proposal was implemented the CPL exams may well need to be scrapped. There would be no little point in them as most of the jobs for CPL exam candidates come from the instructing sector.
On that subject of wasting money jumping through unneccessary hoops: Of course we still are waiting for the European response to the impending ICAO Multipilot licence that will soon put PPLs straight into airline training - this will reduce CPL and ME IR training in those countries as those equivalent bits would be covered in the multi pilot rating in the context of the airliner - no need to bother about PFLs or single pilot ops when you dont need these skills?
We should all know a lot more next year about the next raft of changes that are being proposed when the Freedom of Information Act comes into force and the CAA will be required to reveal all its minutes on these matters if asked....
Effect of JAA implementation on UK (CPL) Pilots
1/ Increased Cost
2/ Increased Difficulty
3/ Increased Time
4/ More competition for jobs from English speakers in EU
BUT NO ACCOUNTABILITY - NOBODY VOTED FOR ALL THIS
And now what is planned next?
Oh; lets relax all the rules again; so youv'e wasted all that cash!
We have wasted your time and money but we dont care...
If this proposal was implemented the CPL exams may well need to be scrapped. There would be no little point in them as most of the jobs for CPL exam candidates come from the instructing sector.
On that subject of wasting money jumping through unneccessary hoops: Of course we still are waiting for the European response to the impending ICAO Multipilot licence that will soon put PPLs straight into airline training - this will reduce CPL and ME IR training in those countries as those equivalent bits would be covered in the multi pilot rating in the context of the airliner - no need to bother about PFLs or single pilot ops when you dont need these skills?
We should all know a lot more next year about the next raft of changes that are being proposed when the Freedom of Information Act comes into force and the CAA will be required to reveal all its minutes on these matters if asked....
Effect of JAA implementation on UK (CPL) Pilots
1/ Increased Cost
2/ Increased Difficulty
3/ Increased Time
4/ More competition for jobs from English speakers in EU
BUT NO ACCOUNTABILITY - NOBODY VOTED FOR ALL THIS
And now what is planned next?
Oh; lets relax all the rules again; so youv'e wasted all that cash!
We have wasted your time and money but we dont care...
Last edited by RVR800; 26th Nov 2004 at 13:20.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re. "to open a career path for professional flight instructors"
The interesting thing is that such a career path exists for professional flight instructors in the 1-2 commercial training establishments in this country.
I find it difficult to see a business case for the suggestion as the commercial realities are somewhat different from the well-intentioned aspirations involved in the suggestion.
As for the comments on yet another raft of changes to the regulations....well, let's be honest: isn't that the only "refreshing" aspect of light GA flying in the UK :-(
The interesting thing is that such a career path exists for professional flight instructors in the 1-2 commercial training establishments in this country.
I find it difficult to see a business case for the suggestion as the commercial realities are somewhat different from the well-intentioned aspirations involved in the suggestion.
As for the comments on yet another raft of changes to the regulations....well, let's be honest: isn't that the only "refreshing" aspect of light GA flying in the UK :-(
Last edited by rotavator; 26th Nov 2004 at 18:34.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 955
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes the 'Port and Wine by the fire' brigade at it again.
Of course regulatory bodies think they have done a good days work by introducing yet more new regulations....so the CAA will love this.. opportunity for an all expenses paid trip using the exam revenue they've collected...'
Amsterdam anyone?
I think we should propose a 'national' CPL and 'national' ATPL and 'national' IR and 'national' FI rating in fact............
'Now where is that CAP54'
Of course regulatory bodies think they have done a good days work by introducing yet more new regulations....so the CAA will love this.. opportunity for an all expenses paid trip using the exam revenue they've collected...'
Amsterdam anyone?
I think we should propose a 'national' CPL and 'national' ATPL and 'national' IR and 'national' FI rating in fact............
'Now where is that CAP54'
Last edited by RVR800; 26th Nov 2004 at 14:25.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: England
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Career Instructors"
The 'career' wage is definitely a factor in retaining instructors, but if, as suggested by GAPAN there is a career instructor rating instroduced where are all the young PPL instructors sourced from? Surely there would be a shortage.
To defend the current non-career instructors, a letter was also posted in either Flyer or Pilot a few months ago from a CFI regarding his current commercially orientated FI's, saying they are the best he has worked with in a long time. At least they have a wider respect for aviation than just C172, PA-28, AA5-A.....
To defend the current non-career instructors, a letter was also posted in either Flyer or Pilot a few months ago from a CFI regarding his current commercially orientated FI's, saying they are the best he has worked with in a long time. At least they have a wider respect for aviation than just C172, PA-28, AA5-A.....
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know lots and lots of professional pilots. People who decided to make their living flying aircraft.
They are "Career Pilots".
Most of them started off earning by providing instruction and when career progression came along, they took the oportunity presented to them.
From experience, most "career instructors" are people who have started out as "career pilots" but have not made any progression beyond PPL flight instruction..............in some cases that is because they are not the type of pilot/person that one wants to sit beside in a Commercial Jet.........and in at least one case, I would not sit next to them in any aircraft!
Is career stagnation realy a good thing?
If it is then obvously we will have the following;
Good pilots who teach will be stuck teaching.
Good teachers will never become Head.
Good a&e doctors will never progress to department heads or consultants.
Good bobbys will never progress from the beat to plain clothes
......now would that be good?
Regards,
DFC
They are "Career Pilots".
Most of them started off earning by providing instruction and when career progression came along, they took the oportunity presented to them.
From experience, most "career instructors" are people who have started out as "career pilots" but have not made any progression beyond PPL flight instruction..............in some cases that is because they are not the type of pilot/person that one wants to sit beside in a Commercial Jet.........and in at least one case, I would not sit next to them in any aircraft!
Is career stagnation realy a good thing?
If it is then obvously we will have the following;
Good pilots who teach will be stuck teaching.
Good teachers will never become Head.
Good a&e doctors will never progress to department heads or consultants.
Good bobbys will never progress from the beat to plain clothes
......now would that be good?
Regards,
DFC
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 955
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Still cannot understand why we need to make the route to FI status easier given that the over-supply of FIs currently has the effect of setting the market rate for instructors at around the national minimum wage?
This is the real issue; one simply cannot build a career on such a poor wage - that situation will be made worse by this proposal...
The reason people NEED to move on in their 'career' is partly because of these low wages not just because they have a need to build hours...
One other issue is that of what precisely is the reason why anyone would want to do the CPL exams if this was
implemented - one assumes they would be scrapped?
This is the real issue; one simply cannot build a career on such a poor wage - that situation will be made worse by this proposal...
The reason people NEED to move on in their 'career' is partly because of these low wages not just because they have a need to build hours...
One other issue is that of what precisely is the reason why anyone would want to do the CPL exams if this was
implemented - one assumes they would be scrapped?
I don't think that the intention would be to make the re-emergent PPL/FI the sole route in the future; rather it is to facilitate the aspiration of part-time FIs who are happy to teach for a couple of days per week at a RF but don't want to become full-time commercial pilots.
It's up to those who want a PPL/FI back to propose a suitable course - I doubt whether it would ever be any 'easier' though!
It's up to those who want a PPL/FI back to propose a suitable course - I doubt whether it would ever be any 'easier' though!
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: England
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't change it now....
Well I don't want a change!
After a few years trying to decide what to do I have recently taken the plunge and started my CPL theory course in order to be a career FI. I'd be a bit gutted if the rules were changed now.
After a few years trying to decide what to do I have recently taken the plunge and started my CPL theory course in order to be a career FI. I'd be a bit gutted if the rules were changed now.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 955
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EASIER
NOT having to do the CPL in my book is EASIER...
Will they have to do all this?......No
http://www.jaa.nl/licensing/jar-fcl/...pla_frame.html
or Section D in this?....................No
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS.PDF
IF they are exempt that training its got to be easier....?
Any compensation for the people like mikeo that have wasted their time and money if it all reverts back...?
The fact that people elect to do this part-time (like myself)
is largely due to the fact that the 'profession' of flying instructors is currently very poorly paid and this propsal will just exacerbate that problem by increasing the number of instructors....
One assumes that the CPL exams will stop if it is implemented?
Will they have to do all this?......No
http://www.jaa.nl/licensing/jar-fcl/...pla_frame.html
or Section D in this?....................No
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS.PDF
IF they are exempt that training its got to be easier....?
Any compensation for the people like mikeo that have wasted their time and money if it all reverts back...?
The fact that people elect to do this part-time (like myself)
is largely due to the fact that the 'profession' of flying instructors is currently very poorly paid and this propsal will just exacerbate that problem by increasing the number of instructors....
One assumes that the CPL exams will stop if it is implemented?
Last edited by RVR800; 30th Nov 2004 at 11:35.
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, I did the CPL, when all I ever wanted to do was instruct. And I would be ABSOLUTELY DELIGHTED if a more relevant course purely for FIs was introduced.
I learned all the CPL stuff...and I've forgotten at least half of it, because it was irrelevant. An instructor on R22s doesn't need to know about machmeters and jet streams. OTOH, the very little bit I learned about how to teach, and how people learn, and that sort of thing, was glossed over at high speed on my FI course, with the implication being that we needed to get on to the Real Thing, ie flying.
I suffered as a PPL student from hourbuilding instructors who knew little about teaching and sweet bugger all about people, and who couldn't wait to get an airline job. I ended up traumatised and lacking in confidence, and the fact I didn't give up is down to my sheer stubbornness, nothing else. And I'm not unique. And now, as a newish FI, I struggle to teach my students, because while I had loads of facts thrown at me during all that studying, they weren't the facts I needed.
Yes, if things change, a lot of my time and money doing the CPL will have been wasted. But so what? If something better comes along, am I going to stand in the way because it's too late for me? How dog-in-the-manger-ish can you get? And ultimately, nothing in life you do is really wasted anyway.
Whether this will work or not I don't know, but it's a bloody brilliant idea, about time it came along, and why don't you all stop whinging about oh-dear-it's-unfair-cos-I-did-the-exams and all that crap. If you've got a reason against it, it ought to be better than that. And it won't be any easier, just different. Anyone who thinks instructing WELL is easy has never done it, or certainly never done it right! And I've done enough other jobs to have some idea what I'm talking about here.
Oh, and as for pay....as someone said, helicopter and microlight instrutors make a living, and so will f/w ones, once we remove the hourbuilders.
I learned all the CPL stuff...and I've forgotten at least half of it, because it was irrelevant. An instructor on R22s doesn't need to know about machmeters and jet streams. OTOH, the very little bit I learned about how to teach, and how people learn, and that sort of thing, was glossed over at high speed on my FI course, with the implication being that we needed to get on to the Real Thing, ie flying.
I suffered as a PPL student from hourbuilding instructors who knew little about teaching and sweet bugger all about people, and who couldn't wait to get an airline job. I ended up traumatised and lacking in confidence, and the fact I didn't give up is down to my sheer stubbornness, nothing else. And I'm not unique. And now, as a newish FI, I struggle to teach my students, because while I had loads of facts thrown at me during all that studying, they weren't the facts I needed.
Yes, if things change, a lot of my time and money doing the CPL will have been wasted. But so what? If something better comes along, am I going to stand in the way because it's too late for me? How dog-in-the-manger-ish can you get? And ultimately, nothing in life you do is really wasted anyway.
Whether this will work or not I don't know, but it's a bloody brilliant idea, about time it came along, and why don't you all stop whinging about oh-dear-it's-unfair-cos-I-did-the-exams and all that crap. If you've got a reason against it, it ought to be better than that. And it won't be any easier, just different. Anyone who thinks instructing WELL is easy has never done it, or certainly never done it right! And I've done enough other jobs to have some idea what I'm talking about here.
Oh, and as for pay....as someone said, helicopter and microlight instrutors make a living, and so will f/w ones, once we remove the hourbuilders.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 1,041
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The GAPAN article seems to suggest the stanadard of instructors is falling.
No, the experience level is falling. Nearly gone are the instructors who benifitted from HMG paying for their excellent training.
Who wouldn't have given ther right arm to fly tiger moths, stearmans, early jets and later jp's and lightnings.
The modern instructor is self finnaced and is just as dedicated
as any past instructor, its just they have a lower experience base to call on.
Modern instructors haven't experienced spinning a Harvard for instance. What confidence builders these could be.
You don't become a good driving instructor by only ever having driven a mini.
No, the experience level is falling. Nearly gone are the instructors who benifitted from HMG paying for their excellent training.
Who wouldn't have given ther right arm to fly tiger moths, stearmans, early jets and later jp's and lightnings.
The modern instructor is self finnaced and is just as dedicated
as any past instructor, its just they have a lower experience base to call on.
Modern instructors haven't experienced spinning a Harvard for instance. What confidence builders these could be.
You don't become a good driving instructor by only ever having driven a mini.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 955
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its true to say that the need for hours building will always exist in an enviroment where fATPL supply exceeds demand so this proposal will not affect that problem at all.
What happens is that Johnny gets his fATPL sends off his CV can't get a job and needs to build hours .. so then becomes an FI .. that won't change.. all that will happen is that there will be more instructors cos it will be cheaper and quicker that the existing route...so the average wage will reduce.. supply/demand
It will attract many hobby weekend pilots back to the profession..
Also BigEndBob makes a good point about the retirement of many HMG types.. I was trained by ex RAF pilots with load of different types in their log book and excellent instructors they were too.
Sad to say this proposal will not address that issue.....
Professional people need a professional wage thats the real issue
- you Helicopter types are loaded anyway!
What happens is that Johnny gets his fATPL sends off his CV can't get a job and needs to build hours .. so then becomes an FI .. that won't change.. all that will happen is that there will be more instructors cos it will be cheaper and quicker that the existing route...so the average wage will reduce.. supply/demand
It will attract many hobby weekend pilots back to the profession..
Also BigEndBob makes a good point about the retirement of many HMG types.. I was trained by ex RAF pilots with load of different types in their log book and excellent instructors they were too.
Sad to say this proposal will not address that issue.....
Professional people need a professional wage thats the real issue
- you Helicopter types are loaded anyway!
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whirlybird
I agree with a lot of what you have stated. The one thing that I fear is the difficulty in enforcing what GAPAN propose. If it cannot be enforced then at worst, there will still be a variance in the teaching quality and at best, the FTOs will go for the cheapest option.......I will leave you to guess what that would be.
IMHO the reason heli instructors can make a living is because of short supply. That sortage is due to cost of becoming a heli instructor.
BigEndBob
A lot of the older generation of instructors had military experience and could offer insight into spinning the bigger and
different (Tigers etc) types. This is not an option for the new non hourbuilding instructors. I would say that if I am to teach the spinning characteristics of a C150 then I would make sure that I was competent as a teacher and a pilot in doing so.
I agree with a lot of what you have stated. The one thing that I fear is the difficulty in enforcing what GAPAN propose. If it cannot be enforced then at worst, there will still be a variance in the teaching quality and at best, the FTOs will go for the cheapest option.......I will leave you to guess what that would be.
IMHO the reason heli instructors can make a living is because of short supply. That sortage is due to cost of becoming a heli instructor.
BigEndBob
A lot of the older generation of instructors had military experience and could offer insight into spinning the bigger and
different (Tigers etc) types. This is not an option for the new non hourbuilding instructors. I would say that if I am to teach the spinning characteristics of a C150 then I would make sure that I was competent as a teacher and a pilot in doing so.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Between Galaxies
Age: 39
Posts: 453
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rotavator - You say there are:
"1-2 commercial training establishments in this country".
I dont really know much about the entire instructor situation in the UK.....what are these establishments? Are they 'sausage factory' type instruction centres for GA?
Also, Porridge - You say that:
The 'career wage' would presumably come from the same source as the microlight & helicopter instructor benefits from?
Once again, with the little knowledge I have - what is this benifit that mircolight and helicopter instructors see? Is it just down to there being so few instructors for this kind of flying?
Cheers
Ian
"1-2 commercial training establishments in this country".
I dont really know much about the entire instructor situation in the UK.....what are these establishments? Are they 'sausage factory' type instruction centres for GA?
Also, Porridge - You say that:
The 'career wage' would presumably come from the same source as the microlight & helicopter instructor benefits from?
Once again, with the little knowledge I have - what is this benifit that mircolight and helicopter instructors see? Is it just down to there being so few instructors for this kind of flying?
Cheers
Ian
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Sussex
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Instructor training
BigendBob and Whirlybird make good points. You cannot buy experience and what we need are instructors who (a) can teach and (b) have experience. The proposals include the ability to credit other teaching experience as well as aviation knowledge. The worst candidates for instructor courses are those straight out of fATPL courses who have never even held a PPL so how can they know what it is like to be one and how hard it is for the average person to achieve?
Join Date: May 2000
Location: England
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thats a very unfair statement. The same could be argued that a straight PPL instructor doesn't have what it takes to get the best from a student because he lives in his own small bubble (the local area) and hasn't got what it takes to progress. The present system works and in my view allows the students to see that a PPL is just the first rung on the ladder. GAPAN should be left to do what they do best sponsor TALK ALOT.