U.S. Trained Flight Insructors
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It's my experience that the US licence is not worth the piece of paper its written on.
I did more licence conversions for International pilots than I care to admit and I found the quality of US pilot to be despicable. Like class-e
- I often questioned if licences were issued based on peoples ability to recite the ingredients of a Big Mac.
Dicko, you said:
What a stupid thing to say. Your standards are different - and they are lower. This is an undeniable fact! The only way to appreciate how pathetic your standards are is to go and evaluate the way things are done in countries such as Australia and the UK.
The Australian and European ATPL can take up to three months of study. The FAA ATP can be done in 2 days! The PPL licence theory can be done in the States in 2 days when it takes the rest of the world 2 or 3 weeks. US instructors can get their (virtually unlimited) Instructor ticket in 5 hours when it takes 55 in Australia. In the US you can teach Multi Engine IFR on your first day on the job but in Australia you have to have a minimum of 750 Instructing hours, pass a series of Instructor Upgrades and then do a thorough course in Multi Engine instructing before you are allowed to teach more advanced sequences. Need I continue?
The (presumably experienced) Conversion candidates that I have helped overcome their inherent inadequacies have had the knowledge of a low time VFR pilot and the skills to match.
I don't blame the very capable individuals for the sloppy way in which they fly. I blame the system in the states which has lost all regulatory control over the way in which things are done...and this is due in part to the huge number of people that fly there. We have such (relatively) small numbers here that fly it's easier to maintain a high standard and ensure conformity and control.
[This message has been edited by Swamp (edited 09 December 1999).]
I did more licence conversions for International pilots than I care to admit and I found the quality of US pilot to be despicable. Like class-e
- I often questioned if licences were issued based on peoples ability to recite the ingredients of a Big Mac.
Dicko, you said:
...you all insist we have lower standards. I say they are just different.
The Australian and European ATPL can take up to three months of study. The FAA ATP can be done in 2 days! The PPL licence theory can be done in the States in 2 days when it takes the rest of the world 2 or 3 weeks. US instructors can get their (virtually unlimited) Instructor ticket in 5 hours when it takes 55 in Australia. In the US you can teach Multi Engine IFR on your first day on the job but in Australia you have to have a minimum of 750 Instructing hours, pass a series of Instructor Upgrades and then do a thorough course in Multi Engine instructing before you are allowed to teach more advanced sequences. Need I continue?
The (presumably experienced) Conversion candidates that I have helped overcome their inherent inadequacies have had the knowledge of a low time VFR pilot and the skills to match.
I don't blame the very capable individuals for the sloppy way in which they fly. I blame the system in the states which has lost all regulatory control over the way in which things are done...and this is due in part to the huge number of people that fly there. We have such (relatively) small numbers here that fly it's easier to maintain a high standard and ensure conformity and control.
[This message has been edited by Swamp (edited 09 December 1999).]
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Thank you for quoting my stupid remark and then concluding with exactly what I have said. Why do so many people come here to fly? Almost nobody can afford your great training. Even our GA accident rate is lower. As for Mr. Kennedy, like Lady Di, beautiful people die horrible deaths.
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Do you really think the only thing that creates a highly skilled and safety conscious pilot is by making the ATPL ridiculously difficult, not to mention expensive, to obtain?
British pilots are just pissed off because in America an eager pilot can gain their licences and a large ammount of flying experience in the time it takes you to pass your bl**dy navs and techs.
I have flown in the states for the last two years, accumulating 2000 hours instructing and flying charter in twin pistons. I am in the UK now wrapping up my ATPL and it disgusts to think that I am in the same boat as 250 hour pilots who would **** themselves if they ended up on the inside of a cloud with an empty right seat.
British pilots are just pissed off because in America an eager pilot can gain their licences and a large ammount of flying experience in the time it takes you to pass your bl**dy navs and techs.
I have flown in the states for the last two years, accumulating 2000 hours instructing and flying charter in twin pistons. I am in the UK now wrapping up my ATPL and it disgusts to think that I am in the same boat as 250 hour pilots who would **** themselves if they ended up on the inside of a cloud with an empty right seat.
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Agree with some of your sentiments - but the unfortunate fact of life is that there is an all-pervading sense of 'I had it tough, so shall ye' about the dogged insistence on utter trivia so beloved of the CAA's exams. PLUS - you'll never know what you got wrong in the exam (except at PPL level!!). But that means that they could never safely prosecute you for anything as you could claim that you asked for a debrief on your exams and were refused one. As the passmark is 70%, the other 30% could be totally unknown to you!! But it'll be worse under JARs as the exams have little to do with practicalities and more with obscure theory.
One of the many acknowledged reasons for people going to the USA is that the fuel costs make things much cheaper. In the UK we're charged VAT and excise duty on fuel, so it's very expensive!! The solution is to cut fuel costs, encourage BASIC training to an industry standard in the UK and to accept FAA-level 'knowledge' to reduce costs - but not to criticise too harshly those who have been trained already from hours building in the USofA.
Now, just what was the system of lights required to be displayed at the mooring position of a tethered balloon? And how wide are the stripes on the streamers below a tethered kite? Or the required candela for a serviceable navigation light? And when must I demonstrate lifejackets to passengers in a flying boat?? The CAA think it's oh, so important to know things like this..............!!
One of the many acknowledged reasons for people going to the USA is that the fuel costs make things much cheaper. In the UK we're charged VAT and excise duty on fuel, so it's very expensive!! The solution is to cut fuel costs, encourage BASIC training to an industry standard in the UK and to accept FAA-level 'knowledge' to reduce costs - but not to criticise too harshly those who have been trained already from hours building in the USofA.
Now, just what was the system of lights required to be displayed at the mooring position of a tethered balloon? And how wide are the stripes on the streamers below a tethered kite? Or the required candela for a serviceable navigation light? And when must I demonstrate lifejackets to passengers in a flying boat?? The CAA think it's oh, so important to know things like this..............!!
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JFK Jr. went to Flight Safety Intl.(FSI) the largest flight training operation in the world, they even train our military pilots.
class-e sounds like a very cross pilot, needs a vaction in Florida! Shall we meet at Denny's? As for me, I am looking into the Minogue Sisters flying school in Australia.
class-e sounds like a very cross pilot, needs a vaction in Florida! Shall we meet at Denny's? As for me, I am looking into the Minogue Sisters flying school in Australia.
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All this slagging off of other countries' training systems is a bit sad, the yanks do things their way and there's a lot of good things in their system too. And the Brits often have their head up the proverbial (one myself). But one thing is for certain, there seems to be schools out there who train and examine foreign students to a poorer standard than their own if they think they're not going to exercise their licences locally.
No disrespect but Aussie trained orientals are the worst I've seen. Time and time again. We all know Australian standards are good but it seems there are some shonky operators down there.
No disrespect but Aussie trained orientals are the worst I've seen. Time and time again. We all know Australian standards are good but it seems there are some shonky operators down there.
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Let's leave Australian trained Orientals out of the argument. They are our secret shame.
Ever tried giving a foreign taxi driver directions in a strange place in a noisy taxi in 35 degree heat? Now try teaching an unfamiliar and illiterate Asian how to fly.
RubberDog!!!!, there are shonky operators everywhere and always will be. At least our shonky operators have standards.
Ever tried giving a foreign taxi driver directions in a strange place in a noisy taxi in 35 degree heat? Now try teaching an unfamiliar and illiterate Asian how to fly.
RubberDog!!!!, there are shonky operators everywhere and always will be. At least our shonky operators have standards.
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Rubberdog!!!!.....you are right....ozzie trined orientals are pretty bad.....as bad as US trained orientals....uk trained orientals and oriental trained orientals.(try saying that one in a hurry)(sorry..hully)!
Does this mean we can start on the asians now?
[This message has been edited by class-e (edited 10 December 1999).]
Does this mean we can start on the asians now?
[This message has been edited by class-e (edited 10 December 1999).]
Glasgow's Gallus Gigolo .... PPRuNeing is like making love to a beautiful woman ... I take hours.
Joined: Sep 1998
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From: UK
dicko, I used to work for FSI at Vero- I didn't instruct JFK Jr, but I was there when he was learning there. They are an excellent organisation, but they aren't perfect; I've posted before about what I think are some of their blind spots.
In general, I'm not a fan of PPL students at a big commercial school- there is a risk that they will miss something because the instructors are used to cpl studes, and are expecting to be able to put it in at a later stage.
I am NOT saying that is what happened to JFK, just that it is a possibility in general.
In general, I'm not a fan of PPL students at a big commercial school- there is a risk that they will miss something because the instructors are used to cpl studes, and are expecting to be able to put it in at a later stage.
I am NOT saying that is what happened to JFK, just that it is a possibility in general.
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There is a reason FAA certified pilots hate "Nigel's". For some odd reason, the CAA thinks you learn to fly by reading a book. If that was the case, my landings would always be great, but they are not. I understand, the CAA still requires knowledge of Omega/VLF, despite the fact the system is dead. Who cares about doppler radar, ever seen one?
Aviation is a aquired skill, much like carpentry, one learns by doing.
So, there is a difference is philosophies between the EU and the US way, but the end result is really the same, some people make good pilots some do not, regardless of citizenship, gender or which country they learned in.
I am so tired of hearing the same old story from the same people.
[This message has been edited by Diesel8 (edited 12 December 1999).]
Aviation is a aquired skill, much like carpentry, one learns by doing.
So, there is a difference is philosophies between the EU and the US way, but the end result is really the same, some people make good pilots some do not, regardless of citizenship, gender or which country they learned in.
I am so tired of hearing the same old story from the same people.
[This message has been edited by Diesel8 (edited 12 December 1999).]
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Interesting Diesel8, not everyone in the UK, or even Europe is anywhere near being a 'Nigel', I would be careful who you accuse of being one! Last time I looked the CAA did not say you become a pilot by reading a book, there is as much practical flying in our syllabus as in yours. We just believe a solid background knowledge ensures a better understanding of flight. (Although maybe it goes a wee bit too far in some regards.)
Omega/VLF has now been dropped from the material tested at ATPL level in the UK. Doppler? Plenty of examples I can think of in every day use.
Omega/VLF has now been dropped from the material tested at ATPL level in the UK. Doppler? Plenty of examples I can think of in every day use.
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Dear Turbo Prop,
I think perhaps I was being overly fastidious. It was late, (early), and just got back from a trip. My apologies, however, the gist of the comment still stands. The US and EU has two different philosophies, is training superior in one place or another? I do not think so, the CAA pushes academics and the FAA practical experience. Both include and exclude certain skills or task.
On a professional level, is there such a big difference between the two. I really do not think so. I do not think EU ATPL's are superior to FAA ATP's, nor the other way around, the accident statistics certainly does not support such a finding.
This may sound silly, but in the end we are all pursuing the same dreams and aspirations, so am somewhat tired of this argument, concerned "the better pilot".
Just out of pure curiosity, honestly, tell me how you use Doppler radar everyday. I have flown my fair share of old airplanes and have never seen one, much less used one, so just inquisitive!!
I think perhaps I was being overly fastidious. It was late, (early), and just got back from a trip. My apologies, however, the gist of the comment still stands. The US and EU has two different philosophies, is training superior in one place or another? I do not think so, the CAA pushes academics and the FAA practical experience. Both include and exclude certain skills or task.
On a professional level, is there such a big difference between the two. I really do not think so. I do not think EU ATPL's are superior to FAA ATP's, nor the other way around, the accident statistics certainly does not support such a finding.
This may sound silly, but in the end we are all pursuing the same dreams and aspirations, so am somewhat tired of this argument, concerned "the better pilot".
Just out of pure curiosity, honestly, tell me how you use Doppler radar everyday. I have flown my fair share of old airplanes and have never seen one, much less used one, so just inquisitive!!
Glasgow's Gallus Gigolo .... PPRuNeing is like making love to a beautiful woman ... I take hours.
Joined: Sep 1998
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From: UK
At FSI, the FAA instructors hated us (the Limeys) because we each earned as much as any 3 of them (or maybe 4, I was never sure)!
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One thing is clear that having a EU ATPL groundschools done you are most certainly better prepared for airline flying that your counterpart in US with a single written, which I took without ever opening a book ( Got 98% ).
Most of the pilots I have worked with have never even seen a ICAO flightplan form let alone now how to fill one.
While in EU advanced meteorology, navigation and airlaw is included in the frozen ATPL courses. Here it is customary for the airline to provide you with that training when you need it, say before you move to fly international trips.
Regardless, I find qualified pilots on both sides of the pond as well as persons that should have absolutely no business in the cockpit.
JJ
Most of the pilots I have worked with have never even seen a ICAO flightplan form let alone now how to fill one.
While in EU advanced meteorology, navigation and airlaw is included in the frozen ATPL courses. Here it is customary for the airline to provide you with that training when you need it, say before you move to fly international trips.
Regardless, I find qualified pilots on both sides of the pond as well as persons that should have absolutely no business in the cockpit.
JJ
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Captain Homesick the first thing that I thought of during the JFK incident was how his FSI instructor must have felt and how they would have to remove all their promotional catalogues/flyers with JFK Jr. on it.
We have Limey Instructors here too, almost all of whom want to fly here. Is the UK/EU job market bad? Maybe they are concerned that the standards home are too stringent. Or maybe they just like our girls.
We have Limey Instructors here too, almost all of whom want to fly here. Is the UK/EU job market bad? Maybe they are concerned that the standards home are too stringent. Or maybe they just like our girls.