spinnaphobia
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spinnaphobia
Instructors out there:
What advice would you have for a 100+ hrs PPL holder who's remained spin-free all this time, and has developed a terror of them? I know some spin-and-recovery practise would be very good for my flying, but I'm simply too frightened to try (with an instructor, of course) I don't know if it's the thing itself, or a fear that it'll be too much for me to handle. It's certainly partly the unknown.. What will it feel like? Will it all just be a blur or will there be time to take things in and think it through?
As things are, I'm nervous even of stalling, in case things go wrong and I won't cope.
Help, please.
What advice would you have for a 100+ hrs PPL holder who's remained spin-free all this time, and has developed a terror of them? I know some spin-and-recovery practise would be very good for my flying, but I'm simply too frightened to try (with an instructor, of course) I don't know if it's the thing itself, or a fear that it'll be too much for me to handle. It's certainly partly the unknown.. What will it feel like? Will it all just be a blur or will there be time to take things in and think it through?
As things are, I'm nervous even of stalling, in case things go wrong and I won't cope.
Help, please.
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When I was a kid, I couldn't get enough of them on RAF Chippies. Now I'm older.....well. No it doesn't go blurred but the earth can rotate quite fast and the vertical angle seems unusually steep. It's a good picture but there isn't a lot of time for contemplation. The recovery sequence has to be burnt in the brain. Just get a competent, possibly aerobatic, instructor to do it for you first, then teach you. If you have to recover from a spin later, the training just kicks in and you do it! So it's no problem anymore then, is it? 
[This message has been edited by Yogi-Bear (edited 21 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Yogi-Bear (edited 21 June 2001).]
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Thanks for the words of encouragement YB. One further thought: Which of the light aircraft we tyros get to fly nowadays has the best spin characteristics? (In your experience, rather than the theory. That I can get from books.) That is, nice an' slow an' gentle..
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JS
Forgive me if I am wrong, but since you say you are nervous of stalling I suspect that for you doing a stall is a matter of closing the throttle, raising the nose a bit and hanging on while the speed washes off in an uncontrolled manner and then recovering after something happens – whatever something is.
If I am broadly right with that guess, then I am not at all surprised that you are apprehensive regarding stalling (and certainly spinning). Quite right too.
But stalling does not have to be like that at all.
Let us imagine you want to do the simplest easiest stall of the lot – one done with idle power and in the cruise configuration. Pick a nice day, good horizon and vis, go to about 4000 feet agl, do your checks pre stall (HAZEL) or whatever you have been taught, do a last clearing turn and roll out on your chosen heading with cruise power.
To start the exercise, close the throttle, lower the nose a tad to hold about 20 kts less than the cruise speed and trim it out in this glide.
Your job now (should you wish to accept the stalling mission…
is to keep the wings level, keep the ball in the middle and use the elevator to make the speed trickle off (at say 1-2 kts per second). Please note you do not try and hold height. As the speed gets lower and lower, you will have to progressively apply more and more back pressure (you have stopped trimming remember).
What you are now alert for is the onset of any of the following characteristics
Airframe buffet
A one wing heavy tendency (quite likely)
A little snatch on the controls (especially the ailerons)
The ball trying to go out one side (so that you have to work at it a bit to keep it in the middle).
The nose trying to go down (pretty certain in the end)
NB If your aircraft has an artificial stall warner (and that going off is the first thing that happens) then by all means trickle another few knots off and wait for the aircraft itself to talk to you.
When any of those aircraft characteristics above is detected by you – congratulations! -you have reached the stall and to recover just relax a little of the back pressure and allow the speed to build back up by a knot or two. Then add power and fly gently away.
IMPORTANT - Height
While doing this, keep an eye on the altimeter and do not go below 3000 feet agl. If that happens open the throttle and climb back up for another go. If you had to stop the speed reduction because of height then note the speed you got to and when you start again pull the speed off a bit faster - until you get to five knots above where you were before - and then resume the slow rate of speed reduction.
Finally, when you are happy with the clean stall you are ready to apply the same technique to a landing configuration one, even a high power one. But do walk before running. With power on you may well be climbing quite markedly to get the slow speed reduction. So be it, height is not an issue other than for ground clearance reasons.
IMPORTANT - incipient spin tendencies
If when you do the speed reduction the nose starts wandering out one side further and further despite you applying the (correct) rudder to stop it then abandon the speed reduction and take the aeroplane back and complain about its handling.
Similarly, if the nose at any time starts to rise as you are reducing speed stop the exercise at that point and again complain.
Neither of the above should happen with an aircraft used for training that has a C of A.
Sorry if that is all too basic.
JF
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">As things are, I'm nervous even of stalling, in case things go wrong and I won't cope.
Help, please.</font>
Help, please.</font>
If I am broadly right with that guess, then I am not at all surprised that you are apprehensive regarding stalling (and certainly spinning). Quite right too.
But stalling does not have to be like that at all.
Let us imagine you want to do the simplest easiest stall of the lot – one done with idle power and in the cruise configuration. Pick a nice day, good horizon and vis, go to about 4000 feet agl, do your checks pre stall (HAZEL) or whatever you have been taught, do a last clearing turn and roll out on your chosen heading with cruise power.
To start the exercise, close the throttle, lower the nose a tad to hold about 20 kts less than the cruise speed and trim it out in this glide.
Your job now (should you wish to accept the stalling mission…
is to keep the wings level, keep the ball in the middle and use the elevator to make the speed trickle off (at say 1-2 kts per second). Please note you do not try and hold height. As the speed gets lower and lower, you will have to progressively apply more and more back pressure (you have stopped trimming remember). What you are now alert for is the onset of any of the following characteristics
Airframe buffet
A one wing heavy tendency (quite likely)
A little snatch on the controls (especially the ailerons)
The ball trying to go out one side (so that you have to work at it a bit to keep it in the middle).
The nose trying to go down (pretty certain in the end)
NB If your aircraft has an artificial stall warner (and that going off is the first thing that happens) then by all means trickle another few knots off and wait for the aircraft itself to talk to you.
When any of those aircraft characteristics above is detected by you – congratulations! -you have reached the stall and to recover just relax a little of the back pressure and allow the speed to build back up by a knot or two. Then add power and fly gently away.
IMPORTANT - Height
While doing this, keep an eye on the altimeter and do not go below 3000 feet agl. If that happens open the throttle and climb back up for another go. If you had to stop the speed reduction because of height then note the speed you got to and when you start again pull the speed off a bit faster - until you get to five knots above where you were before - and then resume the slow rate of speed reduction.
Finally, when you are happy with the clean stall you are ready to apply the same technique to a landing configuration one, even a high power one. But do walk before running. With power on you may well be climbing quite markedly to get the slow speed reduction. So be it, height is not an issue other than for ground clearance reasons.
IMPORTANT - incipient spin tendencies
If when you do the speed reduction the nose starts wandering out one side further and further despite you applying the (correct) rudder to stop it then abandon the speed reduction and take the aeroplane back and complain about its handling.
Similarly, if the nose at any time starts to rise as you are reducing speed stop the exercise at that point and again complain.
Neither of the above should happen with an aircraft used for training that has a C of A.
Sorry if that is all too basic.
JF
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JungleStrip,
Thats very good advice above from JF.
Get comfortable moving in and out of stalls first before going on to spinning.
If you are sure you want to spin - how about this..
Avoid Tomahawks like the plague - the spin rate is high and can disorientate the best of us.
Find a good aerobatic aircraft -perhaps the Slingsby.
But by far and away the most enjoyable, graceful and atmospheric spinning I have done was in a Tiger Moth. Absolutely wonderful and a nice steady spin rate - not like your Hotpoint on max RPM.
Also I think the open cockpit made it less disorientating, maybe the fresh air flowing past...
Thats very good advice above from JF.
Get comfortable moving in and out of stalls first before going on to spinning.
If you are sure you want to spin - how about this..
Avoid Tomahawks like the plague - the spin rate is high and can disorientate the best of us.
Find a good aerobatic aircraft -perhaps the Slingsby.
But by far and away the most enjoyable, graceful and atmospheric spinning I have done was in a Tiger Moth. Absolutely wonderful and a nice steady spin rate - not like your Hotpoint on max RPM.
Also I think the open cockpit made it less disorientating, maybe the fresh air flowing past...
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I agree with H&T re the DH82a, great aircraft for spinning, I DO NOT recommend the Cessna or PA28 as they tend to degrade into a spiral dive and the instructor will tend to rush the exercise to get the patter in before the spin becomes the spiral dive, which can come over as panic and so worry the student. Beagle Pup spins well, don't try the Cap10 though until you are happy with spins as it develops quite a high rotation after a couple of turns.
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I've got spinnaphobia, im a complete pansy when it comes to roller-costers, never go near the things. as part of my CPL I had to do spins in a C-152A, I can safely say there is nothing I would rather NOT do in an aircraft, but, they do happen, and if they happen to you you need to know what to do. on the ground I've constantly been told the drill, but wondered 'would I just freeze like a rabbit' etc. Only one way to find out; In the spin the only thing stronger than my fear was the desire to stop the whole situation. close thottle, check stick neutral & forward, anti-spin rudder, recover from dive. first one was a massive shock, the rest just bl**dy scary, best way I could descibe it is like a dog trying to chase its tail whist falling from a block of flats. I heard that standing on the 'stiff' rudder works, and it does in the C-152, with the rudder deflected by the airflow, the resistance tells you which wan to push (against it). would JF or other experienced aviators care comment on this technique.
I did them, I hate them, at least I can recover. everyone should give them a go, for their own sake, you may even like them (I can't for the life of me see why).
at the end of the day its mind over matter; your instructor dosn't mind so it don't matter
As for stalls, best advice is NEVER use alerons, things of the devil as far as the stalls converned, Rudder is the only control to keep the wings lever(and very good it is too) keep the ball in the middle and alerons central and its hard to go wrong. the idea of stall awarness is that you are aware of it and can cope, practice is the only way, and with an instructor and height, its a safe way too.
[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 22 June 2001).]
I did them, I hate them, at least I can recover. everyone should give them a go, for their own sake, you may even like them (I can't for the life of me see why).
at the end of the day its mind over matter; your instructor dosn't mind so it don't matter
As for stalls, best advice is NEVER use alerons, things of the devil as far as the stalls converned, Rudder is the only control to keep the wings lever(and very good it is too) keep the ball in the middle and alerons central and its hard to go wrong. the idea of stall awarness is that you are aware of it and can cope, practice is the only way, and with an instructor and height, its a safe way too.
[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 22 June 2001).]
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I would heartily recommend spinning, it holds no real fears if you start at a decent height, and once you have done a few your confidence will increase.
The C152 is ideal, because it is hard to get it to spin in the first place. If you put in half a turn of nose up trim before you start the manoeuvre you can take your hands off if it all goes wrong and it will recover into a dive just below Vne and start to climb (provided you close the throttle!).
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"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"
The C152 is ideal, because it is hard to get it to spin in the first place. If you put in half a turn of nose up trim before you start the manoeuvre you can take your hands off if it all goes wrong and it will recover into a dive just below Vne and start to climb (provided you close the throttle!).
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"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"
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Aircraft to spin: C152 Aerobat for its forgiving nature. Not to spin: PA38 for its tightness and associated recovery problems, and the DA20 Katana, which wants to remain spinning for some time after the recovery process is implemented. Inadvertant spins, as mentioned, are easily prevented, providing the wings are kept level using RUDDER ONLY. As an instructor I have been spun unintentionally twice, and due to the spin practice during my own training, I was able to recover without second thought. Give it a go, youll enjoy it too.
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JS,
The C152 is reasonably benign as above. The Tomahawk is an experience, ditto. Not called a Taumahawk for nothing. But OK when you are used to them. Sling sommewhere in between. Don't know about the more exotic machinery. LRT, you're spot on.
Go on, give it a try as advised above. You can keep your socks on for this!
The C152 is reasonably benign as above. The Tomahawk is an experience, ditto. Not called a Taumahawk for nothing.
But OK when you are used to them. Sling sommewhere in between. Don't know about the more exotic machinery. LRT, you're spot on.Go on, give it a try as advised above. You can keep your socks on for this!
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Get into it!
It's scary I know but any instructor worth their salt should be able to ease you into it.
It's been a while since I did any aeros instructing but the trusty ol 152 always did ok, sure there are better aircraft out there but for someone coming to terms with spinning it was ideal.
Advice: Don't choose the newest instructor on the block find the experience and preferably an aeros instructor for the reason that they will tend to be able to patter it in a calmer manner(hopefully)so you will be able to see that it does all happen relatively slowly really. And make sure you complete at least 3 full rotations before recovering (personal opinion).Spinning has always had a phobia about it but once you have done a few you'll realise it ain't that bad but make sure you do practice at least a few and with plenty of height to let it all develop, and don't worry, everyone else has been there too!
It's scary I know but any instructor worth their salt should be able to ease you into it.
It's been a while since I did any aeros instructing but the trusty ol 152 always did ok, sure there are better aircraft out there but for someone coming to terms with spinning it was ideal.
Advice: Don't choose the newest instructor on the block find the experience and preferably an aeros instructor for the reason that they will tend to be able to patter it in a calmer manner(hopefully)so you will be able to see that it does all happen relatively slowly really. And make sure you complete at least 3 full rotations before recovering (personal opinion).Spinning has always had a phobia about it but once you have done a few you'll realise it ain't that bad but make sure you do practice at least a few and with plenty of height to let it all develop, and don't worry, everyone else has been there too!
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Thanks for the advice everyone. I don't fly f/w aircraft very often, but since I do sometimes I decided I ought to have had a go at spin recovery. I'm planning on doing it with an instructor I know well, who's been instructing on C152s for years and years, and she's so calm and laid back about it that I'm beginning to be less scared. I'm still not expecting to like it, but you never know.
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
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Just done my FI(A) in a Slingsby. Like you I was very worried about the spinning.
After the first one I was fine. It's the fear of the unknown, coupled with those deep ingrained words from previous instructors, which quite rightly put the fear of God into you!!!!
You'll be fine. I found it the most useful and interesting part of the course.
In the right aircraft, it can be quite enjoyable!!
LJ
After the first one I was fine. It's the fear of the unknown, coupled with those deep ingrained words from previous instructors, which quite rightly put the fear of God into you!!!!
You'll be fine. I found it the most useful and interesting part of the course.
In the right aircraft, it can be quite enjoyable!!
LJ
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little red train
I'm sure its a slip of the keyboard but what you have described there is known in the trade as a reverse recovery. It can produce a very high rate of rotation spin that may prove very difficult.
It is most important that the first control application is rudder opposite to the direction of rotation. You should then pause (for the order of the time it takes for half a turn or to shout out loud PAUSE) before moving the stick progressively forward with ailerons central until the rotation stops. Chopping the throttle can of course be done at the same time as the rudder is applied
JF
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">In the spin the only thing stronger than my fear was the desire to stop the whole situation. close thottle, check stick neutral & forward, anti-spin rudder, recover from dive.</font>
It is most important that the first control application is rudder opposite to the direction of rotation. You should then pause (for the order of the time it takes for half a turn or to shout out loud PAUSE) before moving the stick progressively forward with ailerons central until the rotation stops. Chopping the throttle can of course be done at the same time as the rudder is applied
JF
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little red train
Forgive two posts, but I did not want the important comment above to be lost in a bunch of JF verbiage about more general matters. You asked for comments about how best to ensure the correct recovery rudder is applied. While I do not question the accuracy of what you were taught in regard to the aircraft you wrote about (I have never spun a 152) I do feel it may not work on all types and, more importantly, do not feel it is the fastest way of choosing the correct foot to shove out like you want to break the rudder bar (which as we all know is how recovery rudder should be applied and maintained until rotation stops)
If the spin is erect, most people will correctly identify the direction of yaw by seeing the direction the aircraft is rolling. Since they are the same in a simple erect spin that is not usually a problem. However, should the spin be inverted (or become inverted as can happen with a reversed recovery or slow centralisation at recovery) the direction of roll will then become opposite to the direction of yaw. In which case life becomes more dodgy as it is then very much easier to make a mistake.
So what to do? The only way of deciding the direction of yaw that I know of which is totally foolproof for any type of aircraft or any type of spin is the turn needle of the turn and slip gauge. It never lies. If it is pegged out to the left you need to shove the right rudder for all you are worth. And the reverse for the other way. All test flying spin recoveries are initiated this way, and if the test aircraft does not have a turn and slip gauge then one is fitted on a special bracket right up in front of the pilot’s face.
Did you happen to watch Jeremy Clarkson spinning in the ETPS Hunter the other night? If so you may have glimpsed the special spin panel fitted for teaching swept wing spinning at ETPS. It has a turn and slip in the middle and a roll direction light either side. If the left light is on and the needle is out to the left you need right rudder to recover and you are spinning erect. It the needle is out to the left and the right roll light is on you still need right rudder for recovery but you are spinning inverted so you pull the stick back.
I would suggest that aircraft are not normally best flown by rote. But IMHO the exception to this idea is the selection and application of spin recovery controls. They are best identified and used very much by rote. Unless a pilot has pretty recent and comprehensive spinning currency (I don’t care who they are) they will not find an inadvertent spin much fun. Hence the need for rote. Indeed when Bill Bedford demonstrated 12 turn Hunter spins at the 1959 Farnborough air show he did the recovery using the turn and slip and altimeter. He described the view outside as unhelpful in getting the recovery right.
Just to finish on stalling, and not to seriously argue your point about ailerons, it is normal when investigating stalls to establish the response to aileron as you approach the stall and even in it. There is no harm in this if you have the speed pegged (don’t continue the speed reduction while looking at the ailerons) and you desist as soon as you find you do not get normal response to a tentative input. Some light aircraft have remarkably sophisticated wings (with a change of section towards the tip and use of washout) which enables the root to stall first and the outer wing airflow to stay quite benign. I did a lot of stalling with a tufted PA44 to show just this point to aeronautical engineering undergraduates and certainly with all the centre and inner wing tufts facing fully forward in a fully developed stall you could waggle the ailerons (and control bank angle) with impunity.
JF
Forgive two posts, but I did not want the important comment above to be lost in a bunch of JF verbiage about more general matters. You asked for comments about how best to ensure the correct recovery rudder is applied. While I do not question the accuracy of what you were taught in regard to the aircraft you wrote about (I have never spun a 152) I do feel it may not work on all types and, more importantly, do not feel it is the fastest way of choosing the correct foot to shove out like you want to break the rudder bar (which as we all know is how recovery rudder should be applied and maintained until rotation stops)
If the spin is erect, most people will correctly identify the direction of yaw by seeing the direction the aircraft is rolling. Since they are the same in a simple erect spin that is not usually a problem. However, should the spin be inverted (or become inverted as can happen with a reversed recovery or slow centralisation at recovery) the direction of roll will then become opposite to the direction of yaw. In which case life becomes more dodgy as it is then very much easier to make a mistake.
So what to do? The only way of deciding the direction of yaw that I know of which is totally foolproof for any type of aircraft or any type of spin is the turn needle of the turn and slip gauge. It never lies. If it is pegged out to the left you need to shove the right rudder for all you are worth. And the reverse for the other way. All test flying spin recoveries are initiated this way, and if the test aircraft does not have a turn and slip gauge then one is fitted on a special bracket right up in front of the pilot’s face.
Did you happen to watch Jeremy Clarkson spinning in the ETPS Hunter the other night? If so you may have glimpsed the special spin panel fitted for teaching swept wing spinning at ETPS. It has a turn and slip in the middle and a roll direction light either side. If the left light is on and the needle is out to the left you need right rudder to recover and you are spinning erect. It the needle is out to the left and the right roll light is on you still need right rudder for recovery but you are spinning inverted so you pull the stick back.
I would suggest that aircraft are not normally best flown by rote. But IMHO the exception to this idea is the selection and application of spin recovery controls. They are best identified and used very much by rote. Unless a pilot has pretty recent and comprehensive spinning currency (I don’t care who they are) they will not find an inadvertent spin much fun. Hence the need for rote. Indeed when Bill Bedford demonstrated 12 turn Hunter spins at the 1959 Farnborough air show he did the recovery using the turn and slip and altimeter. He described the view outside as unhelpful in getting the recovery right.
Just to finish on stalling, and not to seriously argue your point about ailerons, it is normal when investigating stalls to establish the response to aileron as you approach the stall and even in it. There is no harm in this if you have the speed pegged (don’t continue the speed reduction while looking at the ailerons) and you desist as soon as you find you do not get normal response to a tentative input. Some light aircraft have remarkably sophisticated wings (with a change of section towards the tip and use of washout) which enables the root to stall first and the outer wing airflow to stay quite benign. I did a lot of stalling with a tufted PA44 to show just this point to aeronautical engineering undergraduates and certainly with all the centre and inner wing tufts facing fully forward in a fully developed stall you could waggle the ailerons (and control bank angle) with impunity.
JF
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Thanks for the comments and suggestions everyone. Interesting stuff.
JF - Great reading, as ever. It isn't the stall itself that's the worry, but the chance that I might mess it up and end up in the dreaded sp*n. Specially in approach config/ with power. But there's only one way round that fear: Go out and do it. I will not, however, be "wiggling my ailerons". Something to leave to you experts, that.
HandT: Tiger Moths. I wish. The only air I'll have on my face will be coming through the door after the instructor gets out.
I'll be sticking with the C152s then, to start with. I'll be booking up for next week, with the oldest and most placid instructor I can find (you've got to be right about that, BETA. Can't bear the over-verbose or jumpy ones at the best of times) In the meantime, any further thoughts or advice gratefully absorbed.
Doing this seems a much bigger challenge than the 1st solo, or even getting the PPL..
JF - Great reading, as ever. It isn't the stall itself that's the worry, but the chance that I might mess it up and end up in the dreaded sp*n. Specially in approach config/ with power. But there's only one way round that fear: Go out and do it. I will not, however, be "wiggling my ailerons". Something to leave to you experts, that.
HandT: Tiger Moths. I wish. The only air I'll have on my face will be coming through the door after the instructor gets out.
I'll be sticking with the C152s then, to start with. I'll be booking up for next week, with the oldest and most placid instructor I can find (you've got to be right about that, BETA. Can't bear the over-verbose or jumpy ones at the best of times) In the meantime, any further thoughts or advice gratefully absorbed.
Doing this seems a much bigger challenge than the 1st solo, or even getting the PPL..
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JS
There is no chance of a spin if you carry out the stall using the technique I covered.
YOU remain in control throughout because you are controlling the speed. If the speed does not change quickly you will find nothing else does either and with practice you will be able to drift in and out of whatever characteristics arise. Just do everything gently and you will be treated gently in return.
Enjoy
JF
There is no chance of a spin if you carry out the stall using the technique I covered.
YOU remain in control throughout because you are controlling the speed. If the speed does not change quickly you will find nothing else does either and with practice you will be able to drift in and out of whatever characteristics arise. Just do everything gently and you will be treated gently in return.
Enjoy
JF
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Thanks again JF. I've printed the relevancies out and will tape them over the glass in front of my nose.
..And you will be the first to hear, when I've stopped rotating. Assuming I'm not screwed into a field in Devon. In which case, you may have to be the third, after Wessex Emergency Services and the CAA.
..And you will be the first to hear, when I've stopped rotating. Assuming I'm not screwed into a field in Devon. In which case, you may have to be the third, after Wessex Emergency Services and the CAA.
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In all the aircraft I've spun, we have entered by (full) aft central stick and (full) rudder deflection.
If the aircraft is being flown close to the stall, with the stick a long way back to minimise or stop the descent, then how can using rudder at this time be an advisable action? Surely these are the exact control inputs a pilot needs to make to enter the spin? If wing drop has occured, then the aircraft is stalling and a recovery should be initiated - using rudder here will surely make the aircraft more unstable and likely to depart.
JF this is not a criticism of your advice, I just can't see the benefit of using rudder in a stall to avoid spinning!!
If the aircraft is being flown close to the stall, with the stick a long way back to minimise or stop the descent, then how can using rudder at this time be an advisable action? Surely these are the exact control inputs a pilot needs to make to enter the spin? If wing drop has occured, then the aircraft is stalling and a recovery should be initiated - using rudder here will surely make the aircraft more unstable and likely to depart.
JF this is not a criticism of your advice, I just can't see the benefit of using rudder in a stall to avoid spinning!!
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AT
Mmmmm. Read the brief. The stick should be used to control airspeed not to minimise or stop the descent
As for the use of rudder at or near the stall, the pupose is to stop any yaw from developing and hence prevent a spin.
This is in contrast to the use of rudder to enter a spin where the intention is to induce a big yaw at the same time as the aircraft is deliberately forced deep into the stall by a sharp fully aft movement of the stick.
I don't see these two things as being the same at all.
You may have noticed I nowhere suggested you pick up a wing drop at the stall by use of rudder. I actually said you use the rudder to keep the ball in the middle - which is the same thing as saying you don't let the nose go off sideways (which it may very well do if you don't use your feet to stop it)
Regards
JF
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">If the aircraft is being flown close to the stall, with the stick a long way back to minimise or stop the descent, then how can using rudder at this time be an advisable action?</font>
As for the use of rudder at or near the stall, the pupose is to stop any yaw from developing and hence prevent a spin.
This is in contrast to the use of rudder to enter a spin where the intention is to induce a big yaw at the same time as the aircraft is deliberately forced deep into the stall by a sharp fully aft movement of the stick.
I don't see these two things as being the same at all.
You may have noticed I nowhere suggested you pick up a wing drop at the stall by use of rudder. I actually said you use the rudder to keep the ball in the middle - which is the same thing as saying you don't let the nose go off sideways (which it may very well do if you don't use your feet to stop it)
Regards
JF