So How Do You Get Back Down?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So How Do You Get Back Down?
While I’m not an instructor, I thought this would be the best place to post the question that recently popped into my head!
While sitting outside our flying club last week, I watched a student and instructor in the circuit. After 5 or 6 circuits they taxied in, the instructor jumped out and off went the student on his first solo. He completed his solo circuit and came back to the club with the grin that I remember well myself (Well, it was only a year ago for me!).
As I watched him on his maiden solo circuit, I got thinking. What would be the procedure if the following scenario were to unfold?
While the student is making his way round on his first circuit, another aircraft landing is too high/too low/too fast/to slow and decorates the only runway with bits of aircraft. Lets assume it’s serious enough (god forbid) to close the runway for the next few hours.
What happens to our erstwhile student? (Assuming (another assumption) that flying in circles until the runway is clear is not an option)
I know that at that time in my training, I had very little navigation training or experience and I doubt that I would have been able to perform the necessary diversion to another airfield.
Is there such a thing as a recognised procedure for such an event or is it deemed so unlikely that it has never been fully considered?
While sitting outside our flying club last week, I watched a student and instructor in the circuit. After 5 or 6 circuits they taxied in, the instructor jumped out and off went the student on his first solo. He completed his solo circuit and came back to the club with the grin that I remember well myself (Well, it was only a year ago for me!).
As I watched him on his maiden solo circuit, I got thinking. What would be the procedure if the following scenario were to unfold?
While the student is making his way round on his first circuit, another aircraft landing is too high/too low/too fast/to slow and decorates the only runway with bits of aircraft. Lets assume it’s serious enough (god forbid) to close the runway for the next few hours.
What happens to our erstwhile student? (Assuming (another assumption) that flying in circles until the runway is clear is not an option)
I know that at that time in my training, I had very little navigation training or experience and I doubt that I would have been able to perform the necessary diversion to another airfield.
Is there such a thing as a recognised procedure for such an event or is it deemed so unlikely that it has never been fully considered?
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
murphy,
There was an "I learned About Flying From That" article in Pilot magazine a while back, with just that scenario. I can't quite remember the details, but I think the poor first solo student eventually had to divert to another airfield, and managed it! I do remember that she said it had been a two hour first solo.
Thinking about that, I often wonder about these students who go solo in very few hours. Are they prepared for all the things that could happen, or at least some of them? Have they done basic nav, are they reasonably OK on the radio, can they follow a chart, have they practised EFATO...to mention but a few? Everyone thinks they only have to do one circuit...but as pointed out, in the time taken to do one circuit, a lot of things can happen.
There was an "I learned About Flying From That" article in Pilot magazine a while back, with just that scenario. I can't quite remember the details, but I think the poor first solo student eventually had to divert to another airfield, and managed it! I do remember that she said it had been a two hour first solo.
Thinking about that, I often wonder about these students who go solo in very few hours. Are they prepared for all the things that could happen, or at least some of them? Have they done basic nav, are they reasonably OK on the radio, can they follow a chart, have they practised EFATO...to mention but a few? Everyone thinks they only have to do one circuit...but as pointed out, in the time taken to do one circuit, a lot of things can happen.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Who cares? ;-)
Age: 74
Posts: 676
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I remember the following case (true story):
A student in a C 152 was sent on his first solo in spite of severe weather warnings. His first 2 circuits went fine, but on the third he couldn't get down! The squall line came quicker then anticipated by the instructor. The instructor ran to a nearby C 172 and radioed the student to just fly east... which he did. The instructor then bordered the C 172 and followed.
Neither had a chart or any other information with them!
I happened to be at a field located some 100 km east. We were just packing things in to go home because of the approaching weather system as we notice a C 152 suddenly appearing in the north. We tried to get radio contact but had no luck. Luckily this field is flat and very harmless (there's one in between that's like an aircraft carrier and restricted to pilots with at least 100 hrs.). We assumed he would land anyway, which he did quite successfully. We were surprised when suddenly a C 172 also landed.
Since they had no charts, they had no frequences and no idea where they were. We managed to find room for both aircraft in our hangars. They were picked up by friends who drove all the way out there to get them.
The next day, as we arranged the day before, I flew the C 152 and another pilot flew the C 172 back to their home base. The responsible instructor then flew us back home in the C 172.
So, no matter how short the distance or even if I'm planning to just stay in the pattern, I ALWAYS have my charts and other papers with me. You never know......
Westy
A student in a C 152 was sent on his first solo in spite of severe weather warnings. His first 2 circuits went fine, but on the third he couldn't get down! The squall line came quicker then anticipated by the instructor. The instructor ran to a nearby C 172 and radioed the student to just fly east... which he did. The instructor then bordered the C 172 and followed.
Neither had a chart or any other information with them!
I happened to be at a field located some 100 km east. We were just packing things in to go home because of the approaching weather system as we notice a C 152 suddenly appearing in the north. We tried to get radio contact but had no luck. Luckily this field is flat and very harmless (there's one in between that's like an aircraft carrier and restricted to pilots with at least 100 hrs.). We assumed he would land anyway, which he did quite successfully. We were surprised when suddenly a C 172 also landed.
Since they had no charts, they had no frequences and no idea where they were. We managed to find room for both aircraft in our hangars. They were picked up by friends who drove all the way out there to get them.
The next day, as we arranged the day before, I flew the C 152 and another pilot flew the C 172 back to their home base. The responsible instructor then flew us back home in the C 172.
So, no matter how short the distance or even if I'm planning to just stay in the pattern, I ALWAYS have my charts and other papers with me. You never know......
Westy
Well speaking as an instructor who has sent a few first solos the PLAN is for him/her to fly ONE circuit and landing only - any more than that is tempting fate methinks. The second solo is a MAX of 3 circuits - I stress to the student that if he has had enough after one thats fine. Next details he can taxi back to the holding point after MAX 3 circuits for some more - throughout all this I am watching him carefully from the ground - ideally in the TWR.
When you send a first solo, in particular, you pay very careful attention to the weather, remaining light, traffic in the circuit etc. - most of the decision making as to whether he/she ought to go is made by yours trully!
Of course, there is always the "Murphy factor" of something going wrong but a good instructor can eliminate a lot of these factors by being careful. If there is any doubt don't send them.
It goes without saying that the student should stand a fair chance of dealing with emergencies such as EFATO but I think it's really a case of "risk management" - there are occasions with certain students where it's now or never and, as my dad who was a veteran light aircraft instructor used to tell me, we tend to forget the sheer self survival aspect when the student is on his own!!
When you send a first solo, in particular, you pay very careful attention to the weather, remaining light, traffic in the circuit etc. - most of the decision making as to whether he/she ought to go is made by yours trully!
Of course, there is always the "Murphy factor" of something going wrong but a good instructor can eliminate a lot of these factors by being careful. If there is any doubt don't send them.
It goes without saying that the student should stand a fair chance of dealing with emergencies such as EFATO but I think it's really a case of "risk management" - there are occasions with certain students where it's now or never and, as my dad who was a veteran light aircraft instructor used to tell me, we tend to forget the sheer self survival aspect when the student is on his own!!
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: notts
Posts: 636
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1st solo
Everything that Fireflybob has said I wholeheartedly agree with. However, I frequently wonder whether a student being in command of an aircraft at the very early stage of a lengthy and comprehensive syllabus makes sense.
Having taught a large number of students who for medical reasons could not go solo until almost at the end, I have not observed any dissadvantage to them, owing to this, nor to their eventual successful completion.
We no longer emphasise solo at the say 10-15 hour stage and therefore have commonly covered at least some Nav. before solo. Covering a much greater content of the course removes a lot of pressure from some students and gives them a more enjoyable and varied progress. I'm sure we can all think back to the time when week after week we trolled round and round the circuit in frustration, waiting for the penny to drop. Then the thrill of going x/country and no longer staring at the same lump of concrete ad nauseum.
Having taught a large number of students who for medical reasons could not go solo until almost at the end, I have not observed any dissadvantage to them, owing to this, nor to their eventual successful completion.
We no longer emphasise solo at the say 10-15 hour stage and therefore have commonly covered at least some Nav. before solo. Covering a much greater content of the course removes a lot of pressure from some students and gives them a more enjoyable and varied progress. I'm sure we can all think back to the time when week after week we trolled round and round the circuit in frustration, waiting for the penny to drop. Then the thrill of going x/country and no longer staring at the same lump of concrete ad nauseum.
Nice
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: All Over
Posts: 322
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I also read the ILAFFT article.
The airfield with the blocked runway fortunately was near the coast, so the student simply routed along the coast line for a set time, and turned around, when she got back to the airfield, the runway had been cleared, however, if I recall, a crosswind had developed but she took this in her stride as well, and made a safe landing, with what must have been the longest sole ever recorded in her log book !!
The airfield with the blocked runway fortunately was near the coast, so the student simply routed along the coast line for a set time, and turned around, when she got back to the airfield, the runway had been cleared, however, if I recall, a crosswind had developed but she took this in her stride as well, and made a safe landing, with what must have been the longest sole ever recorded in her log book !!
Last edited by Paracab; 10th Jul 2004 at 22:09.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: London
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here we go: it was my second ever solo circuit flight. My first solo - a couple of weeks before - had only been a single circuit. Just making my third approach, when the FISO announces that the airfield is now closed - all ground movement is to cease, and all aircraft are to leave the circuit for the local area.
Well, what do you do ? I performed a go around, and headed out into the circuit to think about what I was going to do next. I hadn't bought my first map yet, and there wasn't one in the cockpit. I knew a little about the local area, but not enough to fly away and then find my way back, and certainly not enough to find another airfield.
The story goes that there was a bomb scare and the police had requested that nothing could move within so much distance of the suspect package - and this area included the runway. As it was, my instructor was in the control room, explained the situation, and they gave me clearance to land. Best landing I'd ever done, by the way, as I figured I should get it right first time.
Anyhow - some advice. Before you send your students up for their solo circuits : Make sure they have a map and that they can vaguely make their way towards another airfield - preferably someone with an ATC and a radar (for example, as I understand it, if I'd had to go somewhere else, then heading towards and contacting Luton would have resulted in huge amounts of help by their ATC).
Well, what do you do ? I performed a go around, and headed out into the circuit to think about what I was going to do next. I hadn't bought my first map yet, and there wasn't one in the cockpit. I knew a little about the local area, but not enough to fly away and then find my way back, and certainly not enough to find another airfield.
The story goes that there was a bomb scare and the police had requested that nothing could move within so much distance of the suspect package - and this area included the runway. As it was, my instructor was in the control room, explained the situation, and they gave me clearance to land. Best landing I'd ever done, by the way, as I figured I should get it right first time.
Anyhow - some advice. Before you send your students up for their solo circuits : Make sure they have a map and that they can vaguely make their way towards another airfield - preferably someone with an ATC and a radar (for example, as I understand it, if I'd had to go somewhere else, then heading towards and contacting Luton would have resulted in huge amounts of help by their ATC).
>Anyhow - some advice. Before you send your students up for their solo circuits : Make sure they have a map and that they can vaguely....<
wonko, very surprised to hear your instructor sent you solo without a map since, apart from being common sense, it is a legal requirement to have a map for the intended flight plus any reasonable diversion!
wonko, very surprised to hear your instructor sent you solo without a map since, apart from being common sense, it is a legal requirement to have a map for the intended flight plus any reasonable diversion!
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Orlando, Florida
Age: 68
Posts: 2,586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At the fields that I instructed at, I had already worked out where the alternative landing sights were (as one of the airfileds, in particular was pretty good at suddenly closing following an 'incident').
It didn't, however, include any navigation to distant shores - the student was fully briefed on exactly what to do, and say, if the runway was suddenly denied to him/her by ATC.
A landing would be made at the base aerodrome - somewhere.
One circuit - one landing. "Go Around" at pilot discretion.
Homeguard - can you tell me which JAA Approved syllabus you are following when you teach navigation before first solo and circuit consolidation? The only approved one that I know of, off hand, is AOPA - which doesn't include navigation before first solo.
You are sticking to your flying order book and company operations manual, aren't you?
It didn't, however, include any navigation to distant shores - the student was fully briefed on exactly what to do, and say, if the runway was suddenly denied to him/her by ATC.
A landing would be made at the base aerodrome - somewhere.
One circuit - one landing. "Go Around" at pilot discretion.
Homeguard - can you tell me which JAA Approved syllabus you are following when you teach navigation before first solo and circuit consolidation? The only approved one that I know of, off hand, is AOPA - which doesn't include navigation before first solo.
You are sticking to your flying order book and company operations manual, aren't you?
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Who cares? ;-)
Age: 74
Posts: 676
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
which doesn't include navigation before first solo
Westy
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: notts
Posts: 636
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1st solo
Keygrip
The syllabus has never required that it should be followed exactly in accordance with the order of numbers, but, of cause, it must be completed.
Students are people, not machines. The posts have already indicated many weaknesses in the syllabus order of exercises.
The syllabus has never required that it should be followed exactly in accordance with the order of numbers, but, of cause, it must be completed.
Students are people, not machines. The posts have already indicated many weaknesses in the syllabus order of exercises.
This thread has turned up a couple of interesting areas:
Life is all about risk management: maximum benefit from minimum risk. In this case the risk of the airfield closing is very small and the benefit from solo is huge. Send them solo as soon as safe and reasonable with plenty of fuel/light/time and when they're not too tired.
So what would I do if the airfield was closed? Pass a message to remain in the local area until further instructions. Determine how long the closure is likely to last. If closure more than a reasonable time make arrangements by phone with nearest suitable RADAR airfield for diversion. Explain to stude that they will be vectored and then manage R/T handover.
If no RADAR airfield available use D&D in same way.
HFD
- Nav before first solo: I don't think this is a good idea. The average stude picks up so much confidence and self belief from flying solo that this must be achieved as early as reasonably and safely possible to get the best rate of progress.
- Being able to get to another airfield from a first solo: unreasonable, very high stress and risk levels. They need enough local famil during x4-10 to be comfortable (and able to loiter safely) in the local area - it's unreasonable to expect any more at this stage. The average stude just hasn't got the mips.
- Carrying charts: absolutely and required legally.
- Changing the recommended exercise sequence: OK if it's done for the studes benefit but not if it's for the schools or instructors benefit.
Life is all about risk management: maximum benefit from minimum risk. In this case the risk of the airfield closing is very small and the benefit from solo is huge. Send them solo as soon as safe and reasonable with plenty of fuel/light/time and when they're not too tired.
So what would I do if the airfield was closed? Pass a message to remain in the local area until further instructions. Determine how long the closure is likely to last. If closure more than a reasonable time make arrangements by phone with nearest suitable RADAR airfield for diversion. Explain to stude that they will be vectored and then manage R/T handover.
If no RADAR airfield available use D&D in same way.
HFD
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: notts
Posts: 636
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1st solo
The first solo is indeed a great confidence booster but that is not to say it is of any value in the outcome of the training. The benefit of an early first solo is exaggerated. More commonly it is a negative pressure on a student to achieve an early solo in line with a norm (sic). Often the first solo offers an opportunity of snobbery in the clubhouse, "how many hours did you have before your first solo?".
A concept that a student (6,7, 10-12 hours to solo which has been often boasted on this forum as if it meant anything much.) is better for going solo very early is nonsense. I am becoming convinced that there is no need for a PIC demonstration until the full syllabus has been comprehensively covered and the student has the gained ALL the skills required to undertake the roll of acting in COMMAND of the aeroplane.
A concept that a student (6,7, 10-12 hours to solo which has been often boasted on this forum as if it meant anything much.) is better for going solo very early is nonsense. I am becoming convinced that there is no need for a PIC demonstration until the full syllabus has been comprehensively covered and the student has the gained ALL the skills required to undertake the roll of acting in COMMAND of the aeroplane.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: London
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
> wonko, very surprised to hear your instructor sent you solo without a map
Yes. I think he was too. He went a little pale when I mentioned it to him. In everyones defense (sort of) I was juggling instructors at the time, and I'm sure everyone made assumptions about what I had and didn't have.
Yes. I think he was too. He went a little pale when I mentioned it to him. In everyones defense (sort of) I was juggling instructors at the time, and I'm sure everyone made assumptions about what I had and didn't have.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Solo
I think this is a really interesting topic. One quite close to my heart at the moment.
I agree that the first solo is a confidence thing but I can't imagine completing my solo at 10 - 15 hours. I would not have been ready. I would defo not have been able to divert..
I have read of instances where students have been sent quite early on and then gone on to do their solo consolidation and really not enjoyed it because it didn't go so well.
I am now still circuit bashing and actually still not sure if I could divert. My instructor is starting to incorporate nav into this training time and I hope this will give me confidence. Does it matter that this isn't necessarily what should happen?
All circuit traffic was diverted the other week because of an emergency... I believe there was a student in the circuit.. not me but could have been. But I guess you guys tailor your training to the student? As we all have different needs.
I agree that the first solo is a confidence thing but I can't imagine completing my solo at 10 - 15 hours. I would not have been ready. I would defo not have been able to divert..
I have read of instances where students have been sent quite early on and then gone on to do their solo consolidation and really not enjoyed it because it didn't go so well.
I am now still circuit bashing and actually still not sure if I could divert. My instructor is starting to incorporate nav into this training time and I hope this will give me confidence. Does it matter that this isn't necessarily what should happen?
All circuit traffic was diverted the other week because of an emergency... I believe there was a student in the circuit.. not me but could have been. But I guess you guys tailor your training to the student? As we all have different needs.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The investigation of accident regulations provide for the removal of wreckage which could be blocking a runway in the circumstances described.
However since a licensed airfield is required for most training, should the fire services be depleted then it can take time to return to the minimum required.
While it is a legal requirement to have a map on board, if the flight will be wholely contained in the circuit then this can simply be a local map of the aerodrome vicinity. Thus the flight would be legal without any enroute map(s).
When considering the posibilities of when a diversion should be planned for think about the following;
Having decided to divert, there is the posibility that the runway at the diversion airfield could be blocked unless it is sterilised until the student has arrived.
Should the diversion runway become blocked or the fire service become depleted say due to a building fire, the student has used holding fuel getting to the diversion aerodrome and now is in the same situation as they have left but with less fuel to hold with.
The diversion flight needs to be properly planned in advance and thus plog, chart, PPR, fuel requirement, enroute weather etc all have to be prepared for every circuit detail.
My opinion is that the student should have enough fuel to hold overhead for 45 minutes and they should be briefed for the posibility of a runway blockage to fly the circuit at circuit height until it is safe to make an approach to land. (i.e. never send them first solo without at least 1 hour fuel in the tank)
Regards,
DFC
However since a licensed airfield is required for most training, should the fire services be depleted then it can take time to return to the minimum required.
While it is a legal requirement to have a map on board, if the flight will be wholely contained in the circuit then this can simply be a local map of the aerodrome vicinity. Thus the flight would be legal without any enroute map(s).
When considering the posibilities of when a diversion should be planned for think about the following;
Having decided to divert, there is the posibility that the runway at the diversion airfield could be blocked unless it is sterilised until the student has arrived.
Should the diversion runway become blocked or the fire service become depleted say due to a building fire, the student has used holding fuel getting to the diversion aerodrome and now is in the same situation as they have left but with less fuel to hold with.
The diversion flight needs to be properly planned in advance and thus plog, chart, PPR, fuel requirement, enroute weather etc all have to be prepared for every circuit detail.
My opinion is that the student should have enough fuel to hold overhead for 45 minutes and they should be briefed for the posibility of a runway blockage to fly the circuit at circuit height until it is safe to make an approach to land. (i.e. never send them first solo without at least 1 hour fuel in the tank)
Regards,
DFC
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: tyneside
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A very interesting thread. As a relatively low hours learner out of Newcastle I can say that my mind has been put at rest by the inclusion of a practice diversion to Teesside BEFORE going solo. I now know the way there! And back.
It also gives an early insight into navigation, radio calls and breaks the monotony of seemingly endless circuits.
It also gives an early insight into navigation, radio calls and breaks the monotony of seemingly endless circuits.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for all of the thought provoking replies to my question.
As I reflected further on this, I realised, with the 20-20 vision which hindsight provides, that I personally would have preferred to have completed enough navigation training before undertaking my first solo to enable me to undertake any necessary diversion with some level of confidence and not as the gritted teeth and sweaty palms ordeal which it otherwise would have been!
As someone said in their post, it's all about risk management and given that the incidence rate of my "doomsday" scenario is very low, perhaps the aforementioned hindsight is making me over cautious after the event!
As I reflected further on this, I realised, with the 20-20 vision which hindsight provides, that I personally would have preferred to have completed enough navigation training before undertaking my first solo to enable me to undertake any necessary diversion with some level of confidence and not as the gritted teeth and sweaty palms ordeal which it otherwise would have been!
As someone said in their post, it's all about risk management and given that the incidence rate of my "doomsday" scenario is very low, perhaps the aforementioned hindsight is making me over cautious after the event!
