More Dosh for Instructors!
Guest
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More Dosh for Instructors!
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I thought that the following may be of interest to you all:
Tayside Aviation (largest FTO in Scotland) are being taken to court by the Inland Revenue for non-payment of minimum wage. At last someone seems to be taking this issue very seriously!
When I was in this situation, not even BALPA were interested, despite repeated phone calls!
The Inland Revenue have ruled (apparently) that while you are at work ie. 0900-1700, you are required to be paid minimum wage irrespective of your flying hours.
This is great news for instructors, hopefully meaning that we can all be paid a sensible rate for the hard work that we all do!
We should all take action, and if we are being underpaid, call the inland revenue, and lodge a complaint. They will of course keep the informant annonymous.
In Scotland, the chap dealing with the situation is Mr Greenlees, and can be contacted on 01224401236. I am sure that if you are south of the border, he can provide you with any relevant info.
It is about time that Instructors took a stance and refuse to work for peanuts!
This is your big chance!!!
If we all stand united, and refuse to work for low pay, FTO`s will be forced to pay sensible money! It`s nice to know that now we have a government body on our side!
Please post any relevant comments below.
I thought that the following may be of interest to you all:
Tayside Aviation (largest FTO in Scotland) are being taken to court by the Inland Revenue for non-payment of minimum wage. At last someone seems to be taking this issue very seriously!
When I was in this situation, not even BALPA were interested, despite repeated phone calls!
The Inland Revenue have ruled (apparently) that while you are at work ie. 0900-1700, you are required to be paid minimum wage irrespective of your flying hours.
This is great news for instructors, hopefully meaning that we can all be paid a sensible rate for the hard work that we all do!
We should all take action, and if we are being underpaid, call the inland revenue, and lodge a complaint. They will of course keep the informant annonymous.
In Scotland, the chap dealing with the situation is Mr Greenlees, and can be contacted on 01224401236. I am sure that if you are south of the border, he can provide you with any relevant info.
It is about time that Instructors took a stance and refuse to work for peanuts!
This is your big chance!!!
If we all stand united, and refuse to work for low pay, FTO`s will be forced to pay sensible money! It`s nice to know that now we have a government body on our side!
Please post any relevant comments below.
Guest
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What fantastic news. I considered taking this line last year but never did as I moved up in the instructing world.
Well done that man for pursuing this.
On the matter of putting people out of business I just don't agree. If it's good enough for the cleaners it should damn well be good enough for instrcutors.
People often overlook the flight safety issue of this problem. Having FI's paid by the flying hour, without the protection of AoC of FTL's, when they owe large amounts of money to the bank and are paid below the minimum wage is SURELY not a desireable state of affairs.
I shall follow this with interest - please keep us updated.
WWW
Well done that man for pursuing this.
On the matter of putting people out of business I just don't agree. If it's good enough for the cleaners it should damn well be good enough for instrcutors.
People often overlook the flight safety issue of this problem. Having FI's paid by the flying hour, without the protection of AoC of FTL's, when they owe large amounts of money to the bank and are paid below the minimum wage is SURELY not a desireable state of affairs.
I shall follow this with interest - please keep us updated.
WWW
Guest
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Noggin
I`d like to point out that the Inland Revenue is not out to shut businesses down. If they do, it is them who lose out! They are merely trying to insure that the minimum wage law is upheld. Remember that employers are legally obliged to pay minimum wage to all their employees.
I am currenly a CFI (of a small flying school), and part of my responsibilities include negotiating and setting Instructor rates of pay in co-operation with the Managing Director. All of our full time PPL Instructors are paid a minimum of £1250+ per month. By offering salaries like this, I have no doubt (from previous exparience at other flying schools) that the standard of Instruction improves drastically, as does moral. Offering good salaries also attracts more experienced, and better qualified instructors. This leads to a more pleasant working environment where both staff and students benefit.
In addition to this when instructors are salaried, they take less risks than instructors who are paid hourly who may fly in either adverse conditions, or in weather where there is no benefit for the student, for the sake of survival! Instructors are also more likely to stay with the company longer, rather than being in a mad hurry to go off to airlines to help pay back big loans. Surely this is a good thing for the industry as a whole?
Finally, I can`t see how paying instructors a sensible wage will put most flying schools under financial strain.
Stand up for your legal rights!
MP
I`d like to point out that the Inland Revenue is not out to shut businesses down. If they do, it is them who lose out! They are merely trying to insure that the minimum wage law is upheld. Remember that employers are legally obliged to pay minimum wage to all their employees.
I am currenly a CFI (of a small flying school), and part of my responsibilities include negotiating and setting Instructor rates of pay in co-operation with the Managing Director. All of our full time PPL Instructors are paid a minimum of £1250+ per month. By offering salaries like this, I have no doubt (from previous exparience at other flying schools) that the standard of Instruction improves drastically, as does moral. Offering good salaries also attracts more experienced, and better qualified instructors. This leads to a more pleasant working environment where both staff and students benefit.
In addition to this when instructors are salaried, they take less risks than instructors who are paid hourly who may fly in either adverse conditions, or in weather where there is no benefit for the student, for the sake of survival! Instructors are also more likely to stay with the company longer, rather than being in a mad hurry to go off to airlines to help pay back big loans. Surely this is a good thing for the industry as a whole?
Finally, I can`t see how paying instructors a sensible wage will put most flying schools under financial strain.
Stand up for your legal rights!
MP
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I like the idea but I don't think this will help those of us who are 'self employed'
At the club I work at we get £12 quid 'attendance' money then £12 per flying hour.
If the weather looks grim we are not expected to turn up!!!
We don't even get an allowance for food yet the club serves food!
I wish I lived in Scotland More Power, you sound like a very decent sort.
JWF
At the club I work at we get £12 quid 'attendance' money then £12 per flying hour.
If the weather looks grim we are not expected to turn up!!!
We don't even get an allowance for food yet the club serves food!
I wish I lived in Scotland More Power, you sound like a very decent sort.
JWF
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How is that so many instructors are classed as self-employed yet only offer their services to one school? I am no tax expert but I AM self employed in a non-aviation field at the moment and I thought that pre-requisite of BEING self employed was that your services are available to others and that it clearly appears to be so.Is it just some way to put more pressure on underpaid instructors by making them pay their own tax and NI (if they are fortunate enough to actually earn enough to?).
The school I used to fly at also insists that the instructors are actually members of the club and pay a yearly fee of about £100.Is this common or just a ludicrous p*** take?.I for one intend to become a career instructor but I WILL NOT fly for free.I demand a professional wage for a professional job,no less.Put the hourly charge up by a fiver if you have to but people have to feed their families.
EL Cid
The school I used to fly at also insists that the instructors are actually members of the club and pay a yearly fee of about £100.Is this common or just a ludicrous p*** take?.I for one intend to become a career instructor but I WILL NOT fly for free.I demand a professional wage for a professional job,no less.Put the hourly charge up by a fiver if you have to but people have to feed their families.
EL Cid
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My apologies for being cynical, but at £1250 a month thats £30,000 a year for two instructors. 300 schools in the UK conducting less than 3000 PPLs per year represents a cost of £3000 per PPL before they start to pay for the flying.
In other words, lots of UK schools will close.
In other words, lots of UK schools will close.
Guest
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Any instructor who is Self Employed must be working for more than one establishment,not necessarly in flying.The tax man will not allow you to be S.E. F.I. working for just one club.Also he will ask you what you are providing,just your services is not enough.Maybe you can say you provide maps headsets etc,there was a case recently of a self employed piano teacher who provided her services as a teacher and nothing else.Clearly not practicle to cart a piano arround with her.Tax Man did not like it.As for myself I was told by inland revenue I must work for more than club to qualify as S.E.Well thats only my personal experience.
Guest
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Thanks Eagle...I am myself a music teacher and from my point of view if thats the way she earns her money it does not matter one jot if it does not conveniently fit into the tax mans definitions...he has to find a way to make it fit or create a new type of self employment.To my knowlendge,the Inland Revenue hold no power over the structure of a business and it is up to them to be flexible and work around her.Nothing in English law prevents someone earning money in a way that defies categorization by the Inland Revenue.Don't be hoodwinked by anyone..especially civil servants! 
EL Cid
EL Cid
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El Cid,
Nothing to prevent anyone earning money in any way, no. But the Inland Revenue do have the power to define them as an employee, not self employed, and demand they pay tax and NI accordingly. The definition of which is which is quite complex and I'm not an expert, but in general to have them classify you as self employed you do have to work for more than one person/company, use your own equipment and/or premises, and be the one who decides on hours of work, what you charge etc. Individual tax offices will interpret borderline cases differently, and you may be able to argue the case - though in my albeit limited experience you'll probably lose.
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
Nothing to prevent anyone earning money in any way, no. But the Inland Revenue do have the power to define them as an employee, not self employed, and demand they pay tax and NI accordingly. The definition of which is which is quite complex and I'm not an expert, but in general to have them classify you as self employed you do have to work for more than one person/company, use your own equipment and/or premises, and be the one who decides on hours of work, what you charge etc. Individual tax offices will interpret borderline cases differently, and you may be able to argue the case - though in my albeit limited experience you'll probably lose.
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
Guest
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Well that's two IR's that suck all your money dry then!
While I agree that FI's should be paid more, considering the expensive training, usually at their own cost, it is simply a case of supply and demand. There are more FI's than FI jobs, most FI's are willing to work for low money on the basis that they are building hours for an airline job and while that continues, most flying schools will probably go for the cheapest FI's they can.
If FI's wages go up, PPL prices go up, less people will take up flying and they'll be less instructor jobs. Most PPL flying schools make very little margin and they would have no choice but to up their prices.
Basically FI's need some sort of external monetary input from the government. They give money to struggling musicians under the new deal, yet this industry probably provides less revenue per person compared to flying. Meanwhile, pilots get absolutely zilch.
And do you know what I've just found out - Avgas is heavily taxed wheras JET A1 isn't. So people trying to train for a new profession are taxed but people who are going on holiday are not. Doesn't seem fair to me.
Anyway time for bed.
While I agree that FI's should be paid more, considering the expensive training, usually at their own cost, it is simply a case of supply and demand. There are more FI's than FI jobs, most FI's are willing to work for low money on the basis that they are building hours for an airline job and while that continues, most flying schools will probably go for the cheapest FI's they can.
If FI's wages go up, PPL prices go up, less people will take up flying and they'll be less instructor jobs. Most PPL flying schools make very little margin and they would have no choice but to up their prices.
Basically FI's need some sort of external monetary input from the government. They give money to struggling musicians under the new deal, yet this industry probably provides less revenue per person compared to flying. Meanwhile, pilots get absolutely zilch.
And do you know what I've just found out - Avgas is heavily taxed wheras JET A1 isn't. So people trying to train for a new profession are taxed but people who are going on holiday are not. Doesn't seem fair to me.
Anyway time for bed.
Guest
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I completley agree with Morepower's thoughts.
If certain FTO's didn't spend so much money on three or four layers of management that seem to do nothing but destroy staff morale and issue the odd memo to remind everyone how lucky they are to be here then perhaps they could divert some of that funding to the people who they actually depend on for their public image. I today witnessed a manager of an FTO telling an FI that he was sick of hearing about the wage moan and that he didn't want anything to do with it, but at the same time he still expects his pound of flesh and seems utterly confused why people are not happy at their work. This is how this FTO keeps it staff motivated!
This really is EVERY poorly paid instructor's chance to gain some respect and dignity from their employers, it is also the chance to improve flight safety as MP correctly said many instructors live well below the breadline with huge debts and I have seen peoples decision to fly being based on financial concerns, so surely if the whole argument was brought in to the open then PPL students would rather fly with a happy,safe, non-profit driven flying instructor......look at Railtrack!
Keep the discussion alive!
Good luck in the new job Morepower!
If certain FTO's didn't spend so much money on three or four layers of management that seem to do nothing but destroy staff morale and issue the odd memo to remind everyone how lucky they are to be here then perhaps they could divert some of that funding to the people who they actually depend on for their public image. I today witnessed a manager of an FTO telling an FI that he was sick of hearing about the wage moan and that he didn't want anything to do with it, but at the same time he still expects his pound of flesh and seems utterly confused why people are not happy at their work. This is how this FTO keeps it staff motivated!
This really is EVERY poorly paid instructor's chance to gain some respect and dignity from their employers, it is also the chance to improve flight safety as MP correctly said many instructors live well below the breadline with huge debts and I have seen peoples decision to fly being based on financial concerns, so surely if the whole argument was brought in to the open then PPL students would rather fly with a happy,safe, non-profit driven flying instructor......look at Railtrack!
Keep the discussion alive!
Good luck in the new job Morepower!
Guest
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The Inland Revenue are of the opinion that if as an FI you only work for one company and are required to turn up for work 9-5 then you cant be self employed.
Some companies feel that they employ FI's only when they are flying not when they are supervising solos, briefing or waiting for next student or A/C. The inland revenue say that if you are required to attend a place of work you are employed for the time you are there, and should recieve the minimum wage for that time.
Good luck MP speak to you soon.
Some companies feel that they employ FI's only when they are flying not when they are supervising solos, briefing or waiting for next student or A/C. The inland revenue say that if you are required to attend a place of work you are employed for the time you are there, and should recieve the minimum wage for that time.
Good luck MP speak to you soon.
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 64
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From: England
An extra £5 an hour would only add around £250 to the cost of a PPL. Considering the majority of PPLS are completed by people looking at flying more as a hobby, and as such if they are looking at doing a PPL in the UK at a cost of about £5000 a 5% rise for an FI who is happy, and has your interests at heart as opposed to pleasing their bank managers is well worth it.
Interesting about the Avgas and Jet A1, this b%$"£$d government are obviously not content with just abolishing NVQ relief for flying AS "we do not wish to subsidise people enjoying themselves flying" or whatever it was they said. Personally I think we should contact the unions and get this business sorted out once and for all, Get NVQ back and not the at the old level, but more like 50%, toughen up on companies recruiting pilots from abroad (espicially none JAA licence states) when we have loads of pilots here! Also we should kick the bloody frogs into touch for signing up to JAR and then blatently going against all that it stands for - but that is another issue...
Good on the FI's, lets make this bloody awful government work for us proffesional aviators for a change!!!
BigAir
Interesting about the Avgas and Jet A1, this b%$"£$d government are obviously not content with just abolishing NVQ relief for flying AS "we do not wish to subsidise people enjoying themselves flying" or whatever it was they said. Personally I think we should contact the unions and get this business sorted out once and for all, Get NVQ back and not the at the old level, but more like 50%, toughen up on companies recruiting pilots from abroad (espicially none JAA licence states) when we have loads of pilots here! Also we should kick the bloody frogs into touch for signing up to JAR and then blatently going against all that it stands for - but that is another issue...
Good on the FI's, lets make this bloody awful government work for us proffesional aviators for a change!!!
BigAir
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Yes, Instructors should be paid more…but let me play Devils Advocate for a moment and… career instructors, this does NOT apply to you!
Lets accept that, in the main,'non career' instructors are instructing as part of an overall plan to become acceptable for Airline employment. They will have paid around £30k to have reached the stage where they can instruct. They will have paid this out without any help from the government, help which would be given to any other student studying for even worthless degrees or qualifications.
They will have seen NVQ disappear, VAT being charged on training, paid for dental treatment etc etc, and as yet, no one has taken the Government to court for unfair treatment!.
And then, when a flying school gives us the opportunity to gain the appropriate hours, an instructor, we will then go on to spend additional thousands of £’s to gain an IR (no NVQ, plus VAT and not even access to a Personal Learning Account). With this in hand, given half a chance, it’s out the door as fast as it opens!
Now it ‘could ‘ be argued that organisations like Tayside are being used as free access to one of the many elements required to get an Airline job… HOURS, the other elements we seem to happily pay for.
Lets face it (and remember I’m playing Devils Advocate here!), Flying schools are being used, by many, as a stepping stone, and don’t expect, or receive, loyalty or long term commitment. They give us the hour building we need. They don’t charge us for it, in fact they even give us ‘some’ money!
We have paid for every other piece of required hour building, why should this be any different
We need/want to log about 1,000hrs. That would cost about £100,000.00!
Therefore, it could be argued that if we can gain these hours over 2 years as an instructor, with a pathetic salary of £10k pa we will have ‘earned’ £60k pa!!… Yes, I know its not as clear cut and simple as that!
The fact of the matter is that just as we become an experienced instructors we are off as soon as the opportunity arises…an employers nightmare.
It’s a two way thing. The school gives us the logged hours we require to leave and get an Airline job, and in return we share our passion for flying with members of the club. Not unreasonable you might say.
Now, the downside of all this is that those who want to instruct for a living can’t, because the pay is pathetic and employers won’t risk investing in long term staff.. they don’t need to!. Even commercial schools suffer from instructors who are clearly just passing through. Our own WWW only lasted under a year in Spain before jumping at a chance of what he clearly always intended to do (well done WWW by the way!)
So who’s using who?
So there we go. I would stress that the above is not necessarily my view on life. I too intend to instruct in the coming year and would even consider that as a career, IF the pay was fair.
(blue touch paper lit…and standing VERY well back!)
Lets accept that, in the main,'non career' instructors are instructing as part of an overall plan to become acceptable for Airline employment. They will have paid around £30k to have reached the stage where they can instruct. They will have paid this out without any help from the government, help which would be given to any other student studying for even worthless degrees or qualifications.
They will have seen NVQ disappear, VAT being charged on training, paid for dental treatment etc etc, and as yet, no one has taken the Government to court for unfair treatment!.
And then, when a flying school gives us the opportunity to gain the appropriate hours, an instructor, we will then go on to spend additional thousands of £’s to gain an IR (no NVQ, plus VAT and not even access to a Personal Learning Account). With this in hand, given half a chance, it’s out the door as fast as it opens!
Now it ‘could ‘ be argued that organisations like Tayside are being used as free access to one of the many elements required to get an Airline job… HOURS, the other elements we seem to happily pay for.
Lets face it (and remember I’m playing Devils Advocate here!), Flying schools are being used, by many, as a stepping stone, and don’t expect, or receive, loyalty or long term commitment. They give us the hour building we need. They don’t charge us for it, in fact they even give us ‘some’ money!
We have paid for every other piece of required hour building, why should this be any different
We need/want to log about 1,000hrs. That would cost about £100,000.00!
Therefore, it could be argued that if we can gain these hours over 2 years as an instructor, with a pathetic salary of £10k pa we will have ‘earned’ £60k pa!!… Yes, I know its not as clear cut and simple as that!
The fact of the matter is that just as we become an experienced instructors we are off as soon as the opportunity arises…an employers nightmare.
It’s a two way thing. The school gives us the logged hours we require to leave and get an Airline job, and in return we share our passion for flying with members of the club. Not unreasonable you might say.
Now, the downside of all this is that those who want to instruct for a living can’t, because the pay is pathetic and employers won’t risk investing in long term staff.. they don’t need to!. Even commercial schools suffer from instructors who are clearly just passing through. Our own WWW only lasted under a year in Spain before jumping at a chance of what he clearly always intended to do (well done WWW by the way!)
So who’s using who?
So there we go. I would stress that the above is not necessarily my view on life. I too intend to instruct in the coming year and would even consider that as a career, IF the pay was fair.
(blue touch paper lit…and standing VERY well back!)
Guest
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Well sd here's a reply to your arguement.
What about the turbo prop F/O who is building up hours hoping to get a jet job. Are you saying he should be paid a pittance?
Or the 737 driver building jet hours so he can get a seat in a 747. Is he also not hour building and therefore should only be paid 10k a year if he's lucky?
This whole business of working for F*** all is whats screwing up the industry and completely P***** people off (me included).
When I was a part time FI I earned £12 per tacho hour with absolutley zilch for ground briefings/waiting for the student to turn up/washing the aeroplane down at the end of the day. No flying=No pay!!!
I've even heard of one FI approaching a school for employment as an instructor and being told they would pay him NOTHING to instruct, yet he held a CPL!
Perhaps when you've been and spent £35K and 2 years of your life getting the tickets you might change your mind. You might also realise that working for FA doesn't pay the bills, doesn't fix your car when its bust and doesn't pay enough for your IR/ME/FI rating renewals.
Do you also not think that there should be a bit more reward for FI's given their considerable responsibilities?
And if the money grabbing owners of the flying clubs want to avoid the nightmare of their instructors leaving they can either pay them more and retain them, or try being better business people and planning ahead for the future.
There end of rant I feel better now!
What about the turbo prop F/O who is building up hours hoping to get a jet job. Are you saying he should be paid a pittance?
Or the 737 driver building jet hours so he can get a seat in a 747. Is he also not hour building and therefore should only be paid 10k a year if he's lucky?
This whole business of working for F*** all is whats screwing up the industry and completely P***** people off (me included).
When I was a part time FI I earned £12 per tacho hour with absolutley zilch for ground briefings/waiting for the student to turn up/washing the aeroplane down at the end of the day. No flying=No pay!!!
I've even heard of one FI approaching a school for employment as an instructor and being told they would pay him NOTHING to instruct, yet he held a CPL!
Perhaps when you've been and spent £35K and 2 years of your life getting the tickets you might change your mind. You might also realise that working for FA doesn't pay the bills, doesn't fix your car when its bust and doesn't pay enough for your IR/ME/FI rating renewals.
Do you also not think that there should be a bit more reward for FI's given their considerable responsibilities?
And if the money grabbing owners of the flying clubs want to avoid the nightmare of their instructors leaving they can either pay them more and retain them, or try being better business people and planning ahead for the future.
There end of rant I feel better now!
Guest
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It's such a shame that all this didn't happen 6 years ago. I would have been delighted to have earned £15k a year, in fact I would not have left for the first turbo-prop job that came up.
Having said that I would not now be earning £40k+ flying a 'not to shinny' 757. The NEED to leave and earn a living probably was the main motivation for moving on. Without it I would have taken the 'easy' option (well financially anyway) and stayed on as a full-time, self-employed instructor.
[This message has been edited by squeakyunclean (edited 29 December 2000).]
Having said that I would not now be earning £40k+ flying a 'not to shinny' 757. The NEED to leave and earn a living probably was the main motivation for moving on. Without it I would have taken the 'easy' option (well financially anyway) and stayed on as a full-time, self-employed instructor.
[This message has been edited by squeakyunclean (edited 29 December 2000).]