More Dosh for Instructors!
Guest
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sd,
I know from a great deal of experience that what really p****s people off in Tayside that while we all agree to the pay at the time of taking the job as an FI, once we are in they treat you like dirt, expect a pound of flesh but to top it all off they insist that the pay is fair and national minimum wage compliant.
I think if they were a bit more honest with their FI's and talked to them like human beings then the Inland Revenue would not have been involved. But the management do not listen and the bottom line is someone got fed up of being a doormat and phoned the national minimum wage people!
Treating their staff with a bit more consideration could probably have avoided the whole mess, but they just don't listen, so they had it coming.
I agree that FI's do use FTO's as a stepping stone, but never forget that they need you, collectivley, as much as you need them, you have paid a lot of money to gain your qualification and you provide a professional service that people pay for and is right and justified that you get paid fairly for providing that service, wether you are a career instructor or an hours builder is irelevent, you provide the same level of service. Let's not forget that we are talking about the national MINIMUM wage. In my mind this was introduced to stop people like cleaners and bar staff from being treated like slaves, not meaning to discredit jobs like that, as all jobs are important, but we are qualified professionals, let's have some self respect, and then get it from our employers!
Sorry to those of you who fell asleep!
[This message has been edited by Mr B. Tupp (edited 29 December 2000).]
I know from a great deal of experience that what really p****s people off in Tayside that while we all agree to the pay at the time of taking the job as an FI, once we are in they treat you like dirt, expect a pound of flesh but to top it all off they insist that the pay is fair and national minimum wage compliant.
I think if they were a bit more honest with their FI's and talked to them like human beings then the Inland Revenue would not have been involved. But the management do not listen and the bottom line is someone got fed up of being a doormat and phoned the national minimum wage people!
Treating their staff with a bit more consideration could probably have avoided the whole mess, but they just don't listen, so they had it coming.
I agree that FI's do use FTO's as a stepping stone, but never forget that they need you, collectivley, as much as you need them, you have paid a lot of money to gain your qualification and you provide a professional service that people pay for and is right and justified that you get paid fairly for providing that service, wether you are a career instructor or an hours builder is irelevent, you provide the same level of service. Let's not forget that we are talking about the national MINIMUM wage. In my mind this was introduced to stop people like cleaners and bar staff from being treated like slaves, not meaning to discredit jobs like that, as all jobs are important, but we are qualified professionals, let's have some self respect, and then get it from our employers!
Sorry to those of you who fell asleep!
[This message has been edited by Mr B. Tupp (edited 29 December 2000).]
Guest
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Here's my take on this, for what it's worth.
For those who wish to fly for an airline and couldn't get airline sponsorship because they were either too old or couldn't get a CEP position, instructing serves a very useful purpose.
This is how it has been for years and the forces of supply and demand have dictated low pay for all but the lucky few. The relationship is mutually beneficial for all parties concerned, if it wasn't, the current situation wouldn't exist.
Most instructors I know have taken the instructor route because there is no other viable route to an airline. For the period they are instructing they do the job with a sense of pride and professionalism. They also realise that the poor pay is part of the deal but it is only a stepping stone. The people I feel sorry for are those who would consider themselves career instructors but cannot acheive a decent salary because the market dictates low wages. This becomes a self sustaining cycle and the would-be long term instructors become disenchanted and make moves to get into an airline at the first opportunity. The flying clubs have seen this cycle for donkey's years and whilst they may get fed up of instructors leaving, they balance this against the cost of having to pay 25k+ to keep them.
So, enter the argument for the minimum wage. £3.80/hr (it might still be £3.60 but I think it has been increased). If you try and force the minimum wage onto your employers, you would probably find that your terms of employment would change somewhat. Envisage an employment contract that states your entitlement to the minimum wage... and nothing else. No flight pay, no christmas bonus, no staff discount for rating renewals. £3.60 or £3.80 for every hour you are in attendance and that's it. Whilst it sticks in my throat that I don't get paid for time spent on the ground doing the many tasks that are expected of me, I just accept it. If I took the "I'm not getting out of bed for that" attitude then I would be in a minority of 1. There are plenty out there who would fill my shoes without a moments hesitation. If you do take that attitude then your career advancement stops dead in it's tracks. If you want to build hours and stay current you are going to have to pay and we all know how difficult that is.
Whilst I applaud any effort to increase the living standards for instructors, I can't help but think that trying to force the minimum wage onto flying schools can in this case only end in tears. What would improve the situation would be an instructor shortage, and there aren't many signs of that happening are there ?
For those who wish to fly for an airline and couldn't get airline sponsorship because they were either too old or couldn't get a CEP position, instructing serves a very useful purpose.
This is how it has been for years and the forces of supply and demand have dictated low pay for all but the lucky few. The relationship is mutually beneficial for all parties concerned, if it wasn't, the current situation wouldn't exist.
Most instructors I know have taken the instructor route because there is no other viable route to an airline. For the period they are instructing they do the job with a sense of pride and professionalism. They also realise that the poor pay is part of the deal but it is only a stepping stone. The people I feel sorry for are those who would consider themselves career instructors but cannot acheive a decent salary because the market dictates low wages. This becomes a self sustaining cycle and the would-be long term instructors become disenchanted and make moves to get into an airline at the first opportunity. The flying clubs have seen this cycle for donkey's years and whilst they may get fed up of instructors leaving, they balance this against the cost of having to pay 25k+ to keep them.
So, enter the argument for the minimum wage. £3.80/hr (it might still be £3.60 but I think it has been increased). If you try and force the minimum wage onto your employers, you would probably find that your terms of employment would change somewhat. Envisage an employment contract that states your entitlement to the minimum wage... and nothing else. No flight pay, no christmas bonus, no staff discount for rating renewals. £3.60 or £3.80 for every hour you are in attendance and that's it. Whilst it sticks in my throat that I don't get paid for time spent on the ground doing the many tasks that are expected of me, I just accept it. If I took the "I'm not getting out of bed for that" attitude then I would be in a minority of 1. There are plenty out there who would fill my shoes without a moments hesitation. If you do take that attitude then your career advancement stops dead in it's tracks. If you want to build hours and stay current you are going to have to pay and we all know how difficult that is.
Whilst I applaud any effort to increase the living standards for instructors, I can't help but think that trying to force the minimum wage onto flying schools can in this case only end in tears. What would improve the situation would be an instructor shortage, and there aren't many signs of that happening are there ?
Guest
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Wow!!! This has generated much more response than I anticipated! Thanks for all the valuable input, and keep `em coming!
aerotowman- I couldn`t agree more; you have raised some great points!
MrBTupp- You are a man who is in the same position as I was once in, and it is not surprising that we share the same views! Have you contacted the Inland Revenue yet? They are looking for Tayside blokes to help put the nails in the coffin!
Qhunter- Firstly, (as an instructor) what is a Christmas bonus, a free licence renewal, or a staff discount?!!! I have certainly never had any of these things from any of my previous employers! Personally, I would rather be paid a decent salary for a decent days work than have my employer try to pretend I am on a good deal by offerring little freebies. I`m not looking for handouts or a free lunch, I just want a respectable wage for a respectable job!
I also disagree that there is an excess of instructors! There is certainly a shortage of instructors here in Scotland. And from what I here, there is definately a shortage of EXPERIENCED INSTRUCTORS in the UK as a whole!
Finally, you seem to have taken the view of Instructing as a means to an end (ie lets get an airline job when I have 700 hours). I wonder how your students would feel if they realised this! I also do not agree with instructing being the only way to gain "cheap hours". In fact instead of paying for an instructors rating in the UK, that money could easily be used abroad (ie USA) to obtain at least 300-400 hours in a C150/2.Which in the current market, would put you close to airline recruitment minima.
sd- I appreciate that you are paying "Devils Advocate", but what you have described is a "self-fulfilling prophesy". For example, flying schools state that instructors are going to use them, so in turn treat instructors poorly. The instructor then decides that he is being treated poorly, so he will leave at the first opportunity! Bo11ocks! It becomes a vicious circle.
Ask yourself....why do instructors go to airlines? Is it because it is "real hands on flying"? or is it the money? I know airline flying is great fun, and demanding in a variety of ways, but Instructing has its attractions too, as does any other form of flying! If instructors were paid around £50-60k, do you think this situation of lets get the hours then F*** off would exist? I don`t! Salary is a bit exaggerated, but you see my point?
Thanks again for all the interest.
MP
aerotowman- I couldn`t agree more; you have raised some great points!
MrBTupp- You are a man who is in the same position as I was once in, and it is not surprising that we share the same views! Have you contacted the Inland Revenue yet? They are looking for Tayside blokes to help put the nails in the coffin!
Qhunter- Firstly, (as an instructor) what is a Christmas bonus, a free licence renewal, or a staff discount?!!! I have certainly never had any of these things from any of my previous employers! Personally, I would rather be paid a decent salary for a decent days work than have my employer try to pretend I am on a good deal by offerring little freebies. I`m not looking for handouts or a free lunch, I just want a respectable wage for a respectable job!
I also disagree that there is an excess of instructors! There is certainly a shortage of instructors here in Scotland. And from what I here, there is definately a shortage of EXPERIENCED INSTRUCTORS in the UK as a whole!
Finally, you seem to have taken the view of Instructing as a means to an end (ie lets get an airline job when I have 700 hours). I wonder how your students would feel if they realised this! I also do not agree with instructing being the only way to gain "cheap hours". In fact instead of paying for an instructors rating in the UK, that money could easily be used abroad (ie USA) to obtain at least 300-400 hours in a C150/2.Which in the current market, would put you close to airline recruitment minima.
sd- I appreciate that you are paying "Devils Advocate", but what you have described is a "self-fulfilling prophesy". For example, flying schools state that instructors are going to use them, so in turn treat instructors poorly. The instructor then decides that he is being treated poorly, so he will leave at the first opportunity! Bo11ocks! It becomes a vicious circle.
Ask yourself....why do instructors go to airlines? Is it because it is "real hands on flying"? or is it the money? I know airline flying is great fun, and demanding in a variety of ways, but Instructing has its attractions too, as does any other form of flying! If instructors were paid around £50-60k, do you think this situation of lets get the hours then F*** off would exist? I don`t! Salary is a bit exaggerated, but you see my point?
Thanks again for all the interest.
MP
Guest
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MorePower - The reason that there is a shortage of experienced instructors is the fact that they're aren't many who are willing to stick around for the low pay for years. Most career instructors I know are restricted from joining the airlines for medical reasons and so stay instructing. Gradually the pay improves but not as quickly as working for the airlines.
Guest
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I have watched this thread develop and have resisted the impulse to chip in - until now. To take the responses in turn:
Noggin 26/12/00 - Hardly worth a comment.
WWW 26/12/00 - Excellent response! If you place flying hours above training quality you are ,at best, a scoundrel (AP take note).
MorePower 26/12/00 - Please e-mail me, I would like to enrol my son in your school!!
juswonnafly 26/12/00 - You are a fool and deserve to be exploited.
El Cid 26/12/00 - You were a fool but have now seen the light. You have a skill which should command a living wage.
Noggin 26/12/00 - Your point being?
fallen eagle 26/12/00 - You may be right, I'm not a taxman.
El Cid 26/12/00 - ditto
Whirlybird 26/12/00 - ditto
TooHotToFly 27/12/00 - Que?
Mr B. Tupp 27/12/00 - An interesting and perceptive insight into the average FTO management - probably very good at producing widgets but f... all use at managing people. Fits, in my experience, the management of OATS, BAe, Cabair and Seacoat.
MorePower 27/12/00 - No comment.
Mr B. Tupp 27/12/00 - No comment
PT6Driver 28/12/00 - See comments above
BigAir 28/12/00 - Good point - do the punters want quality or quantity? More important, do we, who have to share the same airspace, want them to be competent?
The NVQ is a red herring - the government did not abolish it, it was the fault of all the self-seeking, egocentric w@nkers who registered, solely in order to gain tax relief, and then made no attempt to obtain the NVQ. Those who now cannot get VTR should consider those grasping vermin beneath contempt!!!
ComJam 28/12/00 - What gives you the idea that the government has any interest in the matter? An instructor has complainrd to the IR who, in turn, have taken the matter up with the courts. The government has nothing to do with it.
sd 29/12/00 - You make the ubiquitous mistake of distinguishing between 'career' and 'non-career' instructors. Why should a PPL student receive any lower quality of instruction than a CPL student. Instructional standards should be equivalently high throughout the industry, something that is possible only if every instructor is paid according to his skill and ability.
The sooner we realise that flight instruction is is worth paying for, the safer we all will be. If this results in the second (and third) rate flying schools going out of business I, for one, will be cheering.
aerotowman 29/12/00 - What has flying a turbo-prop got to do with flight instructors getting a living wage? The rest of your post seems to support by previous point.
squeakyunclean 29/12/00 - If you hadn't had to leave your FI post to earn a living as a turbo-prop F/O, your students would not have had to put up with the inexperienced AFI who replaced you and might have become better pilots.
Mr B. Tupp 29/12/00 - FTO management only treat you like dirt because you (collectively)let them. They will never treat their FIs like human beings because said FIs never behave like human beings. Were they to stop tugging forelocks and stand up for themselves, they might get somewhere. As long as the thirst for flying hours overrides common sense FIs will always be exploited, and deservedly so.
Qhunter 29/12/00 - The whole point is that the minimum wage does not apply for 'every hour you are in attendance and that's it', it applies for a set working week (35, 40, 45 hours or whatever). Slavery was around for a considerable number of years, it doesn't mean it was right.
TooHotToFly 29/12/00 - Right on!!
WWW 29/12/00 - There speaks a dedicated career instructor - How much did you sell out for?
Noggin 26/12/00 - Hardly worth a comment.
WWW 26/12/00 - Excellent response! If you place flying hours above training quality you are ,at best, a scoundrel (AP take note).
MorePower 26/12/00 - Please e-mail me, I would like to enrol my son in your school!!
juswonnafly 26/12/00 - You are a fool and deserve to be exploited.
El Cid 26/12/00 - You were a fool but have now seen the light. You have a skill which should command a living wage.
Noggin 26/12/00 - Your point being?
fallen eagle 26/12/00 - You may be right, I'm not a taxman.
El Cid 26/12/00 - ditto
Whirlybird 26/12/00 - ditto
TooHotToFly 27/12/00 - Que?
Mr B. Tupp 27/12/00 - An interesting and perceptive insight into the average FTO management - probably very good at producing widgets but f... all use at managing people. Fits, in my experience, the management of OATS, BAe, Cabair and Seacoat.
MorePower 27/12/00 - No comment.
Mr B. Tupp 27/12/00 - No comment
PT6Driver 28/12/00 - See comments above
BigAir 28/12/00 - Good point - do the punters want quality or quantity? More important, do we, who have to share the same airspace, want them to be competent?
The NVQ is a red herring - the government did not abolish it, it was the fault of all the self-seeking, egocentric w@nkers who registered, solely in order to gain tax relief, and then made no attempt to obtain the NVQ. Those who now cannot get VTR should consider those grasping vermin beneath contempt!!!
ComJam 28/12/00 - What gives you the idea that the government has any interest in the matter? An instructor has complainrd to the IR who, in turn, have taken the matter up with the courts. The government has nothing to do with it.
sd 29/12/00 - You make the ubiquitous mistake of distinguishing between 'career' and 'non-career' instructors. Why should a PPL student receive any lower quality of instruction than a CPL student. Instructional standards should be equivalently high throughout the industry, something that is possible only if every instructor is paid according to his skill and ability.
The sooner we realise that flight instruction is is worth paying for, the safer we all will be. If this results in the second (and third) rate flying schools going out of business I, for one, will be cheering.
aerotowman 29/12/00 - What has flying a turbo-prop got to do with flight instructors getting a living wage? The rest of your post seems to support by previous point.
squeakyunclean 29/12/00 - If you hadn't had to leave your FI post to earn a living as a turbo-prop F/O, your students would not have had to put up with the inexperienced AFI who replaced you and might have become better pilots.
Mr B. Tupp 29/12/00 - FTO management only treat you like dirt because you (collectively)let them. They will never treat their FIs like human beings because said FIs never behave like human beings. Were they to stop tugging forelocks and stand up for themselves, they might get somewhere. As long as the thirst for flying hours overrides common sense FIs will always be exploited, and deservedly so.
Qhunter 29/12/00 - The whole point is that the minimum wage does not apply for 'every hour you are in attendance and that's it', it applies for a set working week (35, 40, 45 hours or whatever). Slavery was around for a considerable number of years, it doesn't mean it was right.
TooHotToFly 29/12/00 - Right on!!
WWW 29/12/00 - There speaks a dedicated career instructor - How much did you sell out for?
Guest
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Nice one RC - quite agree on the professional instructors side of things.
I heard tell that Microlight instructors get far better paid than the PPL fixed wing?
Is that because there is no benefit to be gained regarding the hours towards a higher grade of license?
I heard tell that Microlight instructors get far better paid than the PPL fixed wing?
Is that because there is no benefit to be gained regarding the hours towards a higher grade of license?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Rolling Circle, I note your remarks with interest and that you appear to speak from the comfortable position of being a jet training captain.
I will not become involved in a personal slanging match however I do feel entitled to defend myself and perhaps speak for a few others.
In my case I do wish to fly airlines one day however in the mean time I am steadily building hours (just like the next man). I do enjoy instructing and would be happy to be a career instructor if I could afford it.
The current situation of poor pay will continue for a long time unless something radical is done. I do indeed have the choice of not putting up with this situation.....Result...?? another instructor will all too willingly take my place and I will have no job/no hours.
The world of flying instructors is a nervous and insecure environment, always looking over one's shoulder. Unless we all join forces and strike (highly unlikely) this situation will remain.
I do not believe that instructors intend to 'use' the flying schools. However I do think that many flying schools exploit this situation unfairly.
The whole matter is perhaps self perpetuating. If you look at similar posts on pprune over the years you will see little change.
What will be seen is that there are an awful lot of demoralised and undervalued instructors who are well qualified professional people struggling to get that first break.
For my part, yes as soon as I can I too will 'leg it' as fast as I can. This will leave my current students in the lurch having to get used to another new instructor.
I will leave and the whole shooting match will start all over again!
If instructors were paid a living wage ......blah....blah.........
So what's new??
I do hope that this post does not insult anyone.
Happy landings
JWF
Guest
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juswonnafly, and everyone else, it looks to me as though you CAN do something about the situation. If you asked anyone in the Inland Revenue, they would tell you that flying instructors cannot be self-employed while working for only one company etc etc. If you read the details that come with a tax return, they tell you that you are not necessarily self-employed just because your employer tells you that you are. So, you are employees. Therefore you are entitled to the legal minimum wage for all the hours you are at work, whether flying or not. And you can't be unfairly dismissed for pointing this out and claiming what's due to you - or if you are you can do something about it.
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
Guest
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RC you wrote:
" WWW 29/12/00 - There speaks a dedicated career instructor - How much did you sell out for? "
Not sure what you mean by that. Yes I am leaving professional instructing for the airlines. I intend to keep my FI rating valid and possibly teach Aeros courses on a part time basis.
I started instructing at age 20 and have done so continuously for 6 years now. Much of that was done voluntarily for the Air Cadet movement. I hardly think I have "sold out" of anything...
Kindest Regards,
WWW
" WWW 29/12/00 - There speaks a dedicated career instructor - How much did you sell out for? "
Not sure what you mean by that. Yes I am leaving professional instructing for the airlines. I intend to keep my FI rating valid and possibly teach Aeros courses on a part time basis.
I started instructing at age 20 and have done so continuously for 6 years now. Much of that was done voluntarily for the Air Cadet movement. I hardly think I have "sold out" of anything...
Kindest Regards,
WWW
