Working at Cabair
Guest
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S-turns.
Look at what you've done.You've started me off and I can't stop.Its all your fault.ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhh
Good luck with the interviews, hope all goes well.If it is what you choose at least you have been told what it could be like.I wasn't warned and spent over 2 years there.I tell it how it was.Why not visit a couple of the schools including Elstree to speak to the instructors.Dont be shy just say who you are and what you are doing.Pick a bad wx day and go down the cafe with them.Ask them what you want and i'm sure they wont hold back.
On the good side is all the hours and experience that you achieve.
Frank le honest
[This message has been edited by Honest Frank (edited 22 May 2001).]
Look at what you've done.You've started me off and I can't stop.Its all your fault.ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhh
Good luck with the interviews, hope all goes well.If it is what you choose at least you have been told what it could be like.I wasn't warned and spent over 2 years there.I tell it how it was.Why not visit a couple of the schools including Elstree to speak to the instructors.Dont be shy just say who you are and what you are doing.Pick a bad wx day and go down the cafe with them.Ask them what you want and i'm sure they wont hold back.
On the good side is all the hours and experience that you achieve.
Frank le honest
[This message has been edited by Honest Frank (edited 22 May 2001).]
Guest
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You've got me going now!
Here i was trying to give a complete guide to the scheme to let everyone make an individual choice but then i thought, what the hell, there's an election going on. It's time to get into a fight and dish the dirt.
I think STurns had better get along to Hellstree before too long. I've just been told that 6 of the staff have left in the last 2 months! 2 fixed wing, all 3 heli guys and one ops member,(sadly not the space cadet, Frank!)
Respect!! Boys and girl!
Another fundamental problem about Cabair is that the directors give out false information about this scheme to try and lure you to sign up to it. A major concern for you all is the ability to survive for the 3 years that you will spend with them. They do not inform you that you will not be payed for one year of this for a start. Secondly, I was informed that I would earn £15,000 a year and that someone had recently received £17,000. In actual fact my pay for year one was closer to £12,000. That would then aquate to £8000 pa over the 3 years. All this before the company dished out 3, yes 3, pay cuts.
I know that £12,000 is probably considered quite a lot as far as instructor pay goes but when you are planning your budget to live then a 3 year commitment requires a sound backing. Again it is typical of Cabair to let everyone know that they pay the most but they have hidden the fact that you will not get anything for a third of your time there! Also, London prices as everyone knows have a much higher impact on your monthly take home pay. The net result is that you end up obtaining yet more loans to help get you through. If you had known all this at the start then you would have been better off doing an upgrade modular course without having 3 years of bullying.
Do you know how hard it is to get a loan as an instructor when you have no contract of employment with klm uk whatsoever. That's the beauty of it. When it all goes tit's up and klm uk don't even offer you a job at the end it has all been a shambles from start to finish. Yet Cabair have got what they wanted.
I can also relate to the lack of support given by the directors when approaching them with your financial problems. "there are plenty of others willing to work for that you know." No, I didn't know, that's the whole point! Had I known you were going to cut the pay I could have perhaps done something about it before I started.
Frank does paint a bleak picture but there will be a lot of Cabair instructors reading this and having a very loud chuckle to themselves. They all know what it is like so get down to a school and make your own choice.
Please don't enrage me to say much more.
I can respond to any individual questions that people may have if anyone can't manage to get to a school.
AC 30
Here i was trying to give a complete guide to the scheme to let everyone make an individual choice but then i thought, what the hell, there's an election going on. It's time to get into a fight and dish the dirt.
I think STurns had better get along to Hellstree before too long. I've just been told that 6 of the staff have left in the last 2 months! 2 fixed wing, all 3 heli guys and one ops member,(sadly not the space cadet, Frank!)
Respect!! Boys and girl!
Another fundamental problem about Cabair is that the directors give out false information about this scheme to try and lure you to sign up to it. A major concern for you all is the ability to survive for the 3 years that you will spend with them. They do not inform you that you will not be payed for one year of this for a start. Secondly, I was informed that I would earn £15,000 a year and that someone had recently received £17,000. In actual fact my pay for year one was closer to £12,000. That would then aquate to £8000 pa over the 3 years. All this before the company dished out 3, yes 3, pay cuts.
I know that £12,000 is probably considered quite a lot as far as instructor pay goes but when you are planning your budget to live then a 3 year commitment requires a sound backing. Again it is typical of Cabair to let everyone know that they pay the most but they have hidden the fact that you will not get anything for a third of your time there! Also, London prices as everyone knows have a much higher impact on your monthly take home pay. The net result is that you end up obtaining yet more loans to help get you through. If you had known all this at the start then you would have been better off doing an upgrade modular course without having 3 years of bullying.
Do you know how hard it is to get a loan as an instructor when you have no contract of employment with klm uk whatsoever. That's the beauty of it. When it all goes tit's up and klm uk don't even offer you a job at the end it has all been a shambles from start to finish. Yet Cabair have got what they wanted.
I can also relate to the lack of support given by the directors when approaching them with your financial problems. "there are plenty of others willing to work for that you know." No, I didn't know, that's the whole point! Had I known you were going to cut the pay I could have perhaps done something about it before I started.
Frank does paint a bleak picture but there will be a lot of Cabair instructors reading this and having a very loud chuckle to themselves. They all know what it is like so get down to a school and make your own choice.
Please don't enrage me to say much more.
I can respond to any individual questions that people may have if anyone can't manage to get to a school.
AC 30
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Well, 'Honest' he may be, but he's no expert at intellectual debate. And to think that I was his 'dear friend' such a short time ago - or perhaps he was patronising me?
Cabair is Cabair, you take it or leave it.
I believe that when I was there the good outweighed the bad by some margin.
But then, I wasn't dim enough to be suckered by promises that would never be kept - and I didn't even have a background in the building trade
My opening remarks about my own background were largely intended to clarify that my experience of Cabair might be a little out of date. A couple of you took this as some sort of bragging - I'll let you ponder on your own rushed and incorrect interpretations (and what this sort of inability to assimilate information without setting it in your own context might lead to in the flight deck).
I agree that it's best to go into anything with your eyes wide open, and the advice to go and seek out the opinions of current staff is good. I am far from sure that they will be keen to give an unbiased picture to someone who has just walked in off the street though.
Oh, and 737-NG FO: I would guess that Privatair would expect rather better communications skills from their pilots....... Good luck, anyhow.
It would be nice to have a discussion here that didn't get dragged down to personal sniping at 'fellow professionals' Perhaps it's time to go back to playing with the older boys.
Finaly, respect is earned, not a right. My CRM skills are fine, thanks very much, but you seem to be so expert as to be able to form a valid opinion on my professional ability without ever having met or flown with me? Good CRM doesn't prevent me calling a spade a spade, and nor should it.
Cabair is Cabair, you take it or leave it.
I believe that when I was there the good outweighed the bad by some margin.
But then, I wasn't dim enough to be suckered by promises that would never be kept - and I didn't even have a background in the building trade
My opening remarks about my own background were largely intended to clarify that my experience of Cabair might be a little out of date. A couple of you took this as some sort of bragging - I'll let you ponder on your own rushed and incorrect interpretations (and what this sort of inability to assimilate information without setting it in your own context might lead to in the flight deck).
I agree that it's best to go into anything with your eyes wide open, and the advice to go and seek out the opinions of current staff is good. I am far from sure that they will be keen to give an unbiased picture to someone who has just walked in off the street though.
Oh, and 737-NG FO: I would guess that Privatair would expect rather better communications skills from their pilots....... Good luck, anyhow.
It would be nice to have a discussion here that didn't get dragged down to personal sniping at 'fellow professionals' Perhaps it's time to go back to playing with the older boys.
Finaly, respect is earned, not a right. My CRM skills are fine, thanks very much, but you seem to be so expert as to be able to form a valid opinion on my professional ability without ever having met or flown with me? Good CRM doesn't prevent me calling a spade a spade, and nor should it.
Guest
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STurns, here are 10 reasons not to sign up to the KLM UK scheme. They are known to most as the Cabair Fixed Wing Salary Structure.
I'll list the points and then explain some of them that may need some clarification.
With effect from 1st November 2000
1 Scheme is based on a 4 day working week.
2 Sat/Sun are mandatory working days, subject to the following. All instructors are allowed one scheduled Sat or Sun or a full weekend off every 8 weeks subject to operations approval. Days on will be switched to accommodate this.
3 Instructors can (at their option) work an additional day or days each week and earn £15/hr(ppl), £25/hr(imc), £30/hr(multi). Additional hours are only paid on reaching the threshold in each relevant calendar month. On additional days there are no fixed hours of work.
4 Threshold for additional pay reduced in winter months.
5 Basic salary for FI(R) will be £750/month (non-sponsored) and £650/month (sponsored) for a 4 day week.
6 FI (A) receive £100/month supplement.
7 £250 quarterly bonus will apply upon achievement of threshold hours.
8 No roll over scheme
9 All current rates for ferrying, groundschool etc. remain unchanged.
10 15 days holiday plus statutory and bank holidays remain unchanged.
1 Everyone is stronly advised to work 5 full days.
2 This has been scrapped but instructors have not been told officially. They all must work every weekend without exception it seems. A memo was sent to all the ops managers to tell them not to let instructors off at the weekend. The instructors were never told or consulted.
3 Threshold hrs for each quarter are
nov/dec/jan 30hrs/month
feb/mar/apr 35hrs/month
may/jun/jul 45hrs/month
aug/sep/oct 40hrs/month
4 see above
5 It is rumoured that this is set to decrease for the 4th time to £500 basic for sponsored instructors!
6 On completion of your solo supervisions you receive this extra money. It takes approximately 8 months.
7 This is complete rubbish. It is upon achievement of the "bonus hours" which are as follows; 1st quarter 120 hrs, 2nd quarter 160hrs, 3rd quarter 200hrs and 4th quarter 180hrs. They are totally unrealistic and it is worth noting that no instructor has met the bonus so far this year!
8 In the past it was calculated over a longer period than a month but it was not practical.
9 If you ferry an aircraft for the company you get £10/hr. Groundschool is £5/hr but only paid if you fly over 40/hrs a month. 39 and you get Football Association!
10 Instructors have recently been told that they cannot even take a weekend off as holiday leave! The worst part about holidays is that you get no credit for your days off. This means that in order to earn over the basic wage you must fly your whole threshold in the remaining time of the month! ie take 2 weeks off at the start of june and you must fly 46 hrs in the remaining 2 weeks to get paid £665! Fly one hour and you get £650.
That's about it, don't expect to have this explained to you at any of the selection days as they would like to keep it a secrect until you sign up. You cannot realistically expect to get much more that £12,000 a year.
AC 30
I'll list the points and then explain some of them that may need some clarification.
With effect from 1st November 2000
1 Scheme is based on a 4 day working week.
2 Sat/Sun are mandatory working days, subject to the following. All instructors are allowed one scheduled Sat or Sun or a full weekend off every 8 weeks subject to operations approval. Days on will be switched to accommodate this.
3 Instructors can (at their option) work an additional day or days each week and earn £15/hr(ppl), £25/hr(imc), £30/hr(multi). Additional hours are only paid on reaching the threshold in each relevant calendar month. On additional days there are no fixed hours of work.
4 Threshold for additional pay reduced in winter months.
5 Basic salary for FI(R) will be £750/month (non-sponsored) and £650/month (sponsored) for a 4 day week.
6 FI (A) receive £100/month supplement.
7 £250 quarterly bonus will apply upon achievement of threshold hours.
8 No roll over scheme
9 All current rates for ferrying, groundschool etc. remain unchanged.
10 15 days holiday plus statutory and bank holidays remain unchanged.
1 Everyone is stronly advised to work 5 full days.
2 This has been scrapped but instructors have not been told officially. They all must work every weekend without exception it seems. A memo was sent to all the ops managers to tell them not to let instructors off at the weekend. The instructors were never told or consulted.
3 Threshold hrs for each quarter are
nov/dec/jan 30hrs/month
feb/mar/apr 35hrs/month
may/jun/jul 45hrs/month
aug/sep/oct 40hrs/month
4 see above
5 It is rumoured that this is set to decrease for the 4th time to £500 basic for sponsored instructors!
6 On completion of your solo supervisions you receive this extra money. It takes approximately 8 months.
7 This is complete rubbish. It is upon achievement of the "bonus hours" which are as follows; 1st quarter 120 hrs, 2nd quarter 160hrs, 3rd quarter 200hrs and 4th quarter 180hrs. They are totally unrealistic and it is worth noting that no instructor has met the bonus so far this year!
8 In the past it was calculated over a longer period than a month but it was not practical.
9 If you ferry an aircraft for the company you get £10/hr. Groundschool is £5/hr but only paid if you fly over 40/hrs a month. 39 and you get Football Association!
10 Instructors have recently been told that they cannot even take a weekend off as holiday leave! The worst part about holidays is that you get no credit for your days off. This means that in order to earn over the basic wage you must fly your whole threshold in the remaining time of the month! ie take 2 weeks off at the start of june and you must fly 46 hrs in the remaining 2 weeks to get paid £665! Fly one hour and you get £650.
That's about it, don't expect to have this explained to you at any of the selection days as they would like to keep it a secrect until you sign up. You cannot realistically expect to get much more that £12,000 a year.
AC 30
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AC30 or 737NG,
I am assuming you have both been/are instructors at Cabair.
Well I am about to go down this route (I am through to the final stage - interview with KLMuk) and I would appreciate a one-one chat. This is my future i'm talking about.
Can one of you please send me an email so I can contact you to discuss.
Many Thanks,
STurns
I am assuming you have both been/are instructors at Cabair.
Well I am about to go down this route (I am through to the final stage - interview with KLMuk) and I would appreciate a one-one chat. This is my future i'm talking about.
Can one of you please send me an email so I can contact you to discuss.
Many Thanks,
STurns
Guest
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Monty!
"You mention 'bully boy tactics'. Obviously you haven't worked for an airline yet" : Patronising, assumption, built a brick wall and took an aggressive stance right at the begining. Not very good CRM!
"Second class conditions - you're only a flying instructor, and you're lucky to be at a busy school with plenty of work about" : Who are you to decide if he is lucky or not, doesn't sound like the basis of a discussion between two professionals to me!
"If you can't approach your boss with a problem, what does that say about your personal skills? How will you get on at an airline where the problems are bigger and the bosses often more imposing?" : He is at an airline, you didn't even bother to search his previous threads before you started insulting.
"Food and drink moans... Are you going to join a 'low cost' operator? Take a bottle or a flask and stop being a big baby." : Again, hardly the stuff of a ......what was the word you used'Professional'? discussion.
"I'm sorry to be so patronising, but my message is 'wake up and grow up'. If you need 'out' of Cabair that quickly, e-mail me and I'll do my best to help you out. " : And the proof of the pudding!! You call yourself patronising, you later go on to say " My CRM skills are fine, thanks very much" prehaps you might want to reconsider, or did you not read your own remarks?
"It would be nice to have a discussion here that didn't get dragged down to personal sniping at 'fellow professionals' " I do believe that you are the one who started insulting our lovely Frank not the other way around.
So, I appologise for the 'Git' bit, passion got the better of me. The ill informed bit, well that is quite clearly true, as Frank does not require your generously offered help! as he already works for one of the airlines. As for starting your personality from scratch, it was an excuse to use a favored Blackadder quote.......Sorry!
Thanks for your best wishes, very kind, but barking up the wrong tree?
Cheers.
"You mention 'bully boy tactics'. Obviously you haven't worked for an airline yet" : Patronising, assumption, built a brick wall and took an aggressive stance right at the begining. Not very good CRM!
"Second class conditions - you're only a flying instructor, and you're lucky to be at a busy school with plenty of work about" : Who are you to decide if he is lucky or not, doesn't sound like the basis of a discussion between two professionals to me!
"If you can't approach your boss with a problem, what does that say about your personal skills? How will you get on at an airline where the problems are bigger and the bosses often more imposing?" : He is at an airline, you didn't even bother to search his previous threads before you started insulting.
"Food and drink moans... Are you going to join a 'low cost' operator? Take a bottle or a flask and stop being a big baby." : Again, hardly the stuff of a ......what was the word you used'Professional'? discussion.
"I'm sorry to be so patronising, but my message is 'wake up and grow up'. If you need 'out' of Cabair that quickly, e-mail me and I'll do my best to help you out. " : And the proof of the pudding!! You call yourself patronising, you later go on to say " My CRM skills are fine, thanks very much" prehaps you might want to reconsider, or did you not read your own remarks?
"It would be nice to have a discussion here that didn't get dragged down to personal sniping at 'fellow professionals' " I do believe that you are the one who started insulting our lovely Frank not the other way around.
So, I appologise for the 'Git' bit, passion got the better of me. The ill informed bit, well that is quite clearly true, as Frank does not require your generously offered help! as he already works for one of the airlines. As for starting your personality from scratch, it was an excuse to use a favored Blackadder quote.......Sorry!
Thanks for your best wishes, very kind, but barking up the wrong tree?
Cheers.
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737 NG F/O-
You took the words right out of my mouth.
Except for;
"Monty, my dearest friend - may the fleas of a thousand camels infest your ar*ehole forever more".
How's that for intelligent conversation?
FRANKly I don't give a damn. xxxxx
[This message has been edited by Honest Frank (edited 25 May 2001).]
You took the words right out of my mouth.
Except for;
"Monty, my dearest friend - may the fleas of a thousand camels infest your ar*ehole forever more".
How's that for intelligent conversation?
FRANKly I don't give a damn. xxxxx
[This message has been edited by Honest Frank (edited 25 May 2001).]
Guest
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Honest Frank, go to hear you again, long time no hear!
I can vouch for Honest Frank on all his comments. I worked for Cabair on the same scheme but was lucky enough to be at an airfield away from the constant opprressive management. Working for the company is like working in a Dickensian workhouse, the financial rewards and quality of life during the two years of instruction is disgusting and disheartening and only the strong survive the full two years. HOWEVER. For a person who wants to get into the airline industry, and stand a chance of attaining a first job with a good airline, large jets if desired, the possiblility exists after the two year sentance. Ex-Cabair flying instructors are looked upon in a favorable light, they have shown commitment to the job (not the management)and have been proffessional in their conduct. Those that fly in bad weather under duress rarely do it more then once, and usually only when they are relatively new to the job when hours and 'not wanting to rock the boat' tug at the grey matter telling them to stay on the ground. Once one hot summer day, after a few weeks of heavy flying, I dozed-off on a navex, to be woken up by the 'little-guy' on my shoulder. As I opened my right eye, I saw a PA-28 'jolly close'. I took control and pulled up and rolled over the PA-28. Since then, I make sure that I am fed, watered and rested before any flight.
The rewards, apart from the hours and recognition in subsequent job applications, are few. The best that one can hope for is a few flights with beautiful flying conditions and a favorite student, or finally getting a student through a mindblock with something, or giving nice people their dream come true to fly an aeroplane alone, safely. Don't expect this on a daily basis, of the people that one is required to teach to fly,only approx 10% actually put their required effort into their side of the equasion (this 10% are a joy to fly with even if their ability is less than average). Teaching the other 90% is like trying to push s**t up a pole.
I used to work /7 days a week in the City, 12 to 14 hours a day, but that was nothing compared to teaching people to fly, it should not be undertaken lightly.
My honest thoughts on the subject of instructing with Cabair is that I have no regrets, but I would not do it again. I now feel like the happiest pilot on the planet, flying a B737 for a prestigous airline out of LHR, I could quite happily retire from my current position but I know that aviation has lots more to offer me, and I it.
If you go the instructor route then....
Remember this:
Live for the time you return home and chalk up your hours in your logbook every night.
Keep focussed. Do your job proffessionally - a F**K-up at this stage will affect your career forever. It is not worth it.
If you are asked to do something unusual to the ordinary day, only do it if it is in your interest.
THE TWO YEARS OF HARD WORK ARE A MEANS TO AN END AND NOTHING ELSE.
Frank - keep on rockin' baby. See ya up there!
------------------
Wizz, Bang, Pop !
I can vouch for Honest Frank on all his comments. I worked for Cabair on the same scheme but was lucky enough to be at an airfield away from the constant opprressive management. Working for the company is like working in a Dickensian workhouse, the financial rewards and quality of life during the two years of instruction is disgusting and disheartening and only the strong survive the full two years. HOWEVER. For a person who wants to get into the airline industry, and stand a chance of attaining a first job with a good airline, large jets if desired, the possiblility exists after the two year sentance. Ex-Cabair flying instructors are looked upon in a favorable light, they have shown commitment to the job (not the management)and have been proffessional in their conduct. Those that fly in bad weather under duress rarely do it more then once, and usually only when they are relatively new to the job when hours and 'not wanting to rock the boat' tug at the grey matter telling them to stay on the ground. Once one hot summer day, after a few weeks of heavy flying, I dozed-off on a navex, to be woken up by the 'little-guy' on my shoulder. As I opened my right eye, I saw a PA-28 'jolly close'. I took control and pulled up and rolled over the PA-28. Since then, I make sure that I am fed, watered and rested before any flight.
The rewards, apart from the hours and recognition in subsequent job applications, are few. The best that one can hope for is a few flights with beautiful flying conditions and a favorite student, or finally getting a student through a mindblock with something, or giving nice people their dream come true to fly an aeroplane alone, safely. Don't expect this on a daily basis, of the people that one is required to teach to fly,only approx 10% actually put their required effort into their side of the equasion (this 10% are a joy to fly with even if their ability is less than average). Teaching the other 90% is like trying to push s**t up a pole.
I used to work /7 days a week in the City, 12 to 14 hours a day, but that was nothing compared to teaching people to fly, it should not be undertaken lightly.
My honest thoughts on the subject of instructing with Cabair is that I have no regrets, but I would not do it again. I now feel like the happiest pilot on the planet, flying a B737 for a prestigous airline out of LHR, I could quite happily retire from my current position but I know that aviation has lots more to offer me, and I it.
If you go the instructor route then....
Remember this:
Live for the time you return home and chalk up your hours in your logbook every night.
Keep focussed. Do your job proffessionally - a F**K-up at this stage will affect your career forever. It is not worth it.
If you are asked to do something unusual to the ordinary day, only do it if it is in your interest.
THE TWO YEARS OF HARD WORK ARE A MEANS TO AN END AND NOTHING ELSE.
Frank - keep on rockin' baby. See ya up there!
------------------
Wizz, Bang, Pop !
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well Honest Frank...
Good to know that you are still our shop steward even though you've now escaped!I didn't know that you could write so passionately and eloquently!
I was one of those Cabair boys and I must admit that some of the instructors did get picked on for being outspoken, but to be perfectly honest Sturns if you see the 'sponsorship' deal for what it is, ie a symbiotic relationship between Grabair & instructor and keep your head down; fly when you are able to, and develop good relationships with your students and colleagues, you will enjoy your two year sentence. We had a great laugh in my day, and made some extremely good friends out of colleagues and students, not to mention around 1500 hours of experience which enabled me to go straight to a jet position.
Also looking at the financial package for the instructors now, it looks like it's a better deal than we were on. We started on AFI £250PM basic + £8PH flight pay, with a bonus scheme of £15PH for every hour flown over 40 in the winter and 60 in the summer. Many of us did achieve the bonus and were clocking up between 60 & 90 hours in the summer. And before anyone says it and starts having a go at me, I only went flying when it was beneficial and appropriate for the student to do so, although of course there were others that went flying regardless of the weather on a regular basis, and I'm sure we all remember who they were! As I remember rightly that was the instructors decision and not under any pressure from anyone else. In fact I do believe that the management even had to 'rein'in these renegades in from time to time.
Sturns I'll email you my email address and if you want any further info.
Good Luck
GeeGee
[This message has been edited by GeeGee (edited 28 May 2001).]
Good to know that you are still our shop steward even though you've now escaped!I didn't know that you could write so passionately and eloquently!
I was one of those Cabair boys and I must admit that some of the instructors did get picked on for being outspoken, but to be perfectly honest Sturns if you see the 'sponsorship' deal for what it is, ie a symbiotic relationship between Grabair & instructor and keep your head down; fly when you are able to, and develop good relationships with your students and colleagues, you will enjoy your two year sentence. We had a great laugh in my day, and made some extremely good friends out of colleagues and students, not to mention around 1500 hours of experience which enabled me to go straight to a jet position.
Also looking at the financial package for the instructors now, it looks like it's a better deal than we were on. We started on AFI £250PM basic + £8PH flight pay, with a bonus scheme of £15PH for every hour flown over 40 in the winter and 60 in the summer. Many of us did achieve the bonus and were clocking up between 60 & 90 hours in the summer. And before anyone says it and starts having a go at me, I only went flying when it was beneficial and appropriate for the student to do so, although of course there were others that went flying regardless of the weather on a regular basis, and I'm sure we all remember who they were! As I remember rightly that was the instructors decision and not under any pressure from anyone else. In fact I do believe that the management even had to 'rein'in these renegades in from time to time.
Sturns I'll email you my email address and if you want any further info.
Good Luck
GeeGee
[This message has been edited by GeeGee (edited 28 May 2001).]
