Working at Cabair
 

Can anybody give me some feedback on working at Cabair as an instructor, specifically in regard to the KLMuk sponsorship if possible.

I have heard very mixed stories and I am looking for feedback from ex/current Cabair instructors.

Thanks and Regards,

STurns

Does nobody have anything to say on this?

All advice accepted!

Regards,

STurns

Suggest you do a search through the archives on this subject. There have been many contributions, mostly saying how bad it is. I suppose it depends upon how much you are prepared to put up with to fly airliners!!

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"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"

eyeinthesky,

I have indeed trawled through the archives, but you never know how much is hearsay as opposed to factual information. This is why I wanted to hear from some people who had been there and done it so to speak.

My belief is that they work you hard and they get a cheap resource for a couple of years. In return I get a nice shiny ATPL and hopefully a right hand seat with KLM. I believe I can put up with that ;)

I had heard some rumours (don't know how substantiated they were) about pay cuts to sponsored instructors. It would be nice to actually pay some of my bills whilst I was on the course :)

Regards,

STurns

In a post above it is writen "it depends how much you are prepared to put up with to fly airliners" ,in my opinion this sums up cabair you will be expected to fly with students in weather that makes teaching the execise all most imposable ,deliver aircraft for maintenance while teaching and charging the student for it and all wile the company give you a very raw deal.......you cant give good training under this type managment because your attitude is bound to become clouded and you standard of instruction fall.

instruction should be fun for you and the student if conducted properly ,this is why i still instruct after ten years in the airlines but i will not conduct a training flight for the benifit of the managments pocket and not for the student.

At the end of the day if all you want to do is get a seat in the airlines and dont give a damm how you do it then cabair is the place for you ,most instructors who work for them dont like to do this and so find them selfs in the unhappy situation of being at odds with the management.

While I agree with some of the sentiment above, it is important to remember Cabair has many schools, often the schools away from the bosses, i.e. away from Elstree, don't come under this commercial pressure, providing a much more proffesional service to the punters and a more pleasant working environment.

I never actually worked for Cabair but I do have a mate who recently jacked in the KLM uk deal with them after instructing with them for nearly two years.
He has done his own IR and now has a job with another airline. During his time at Cabair he suffered two paycuts a reduced working week to get round employment rules and minimum wage obligations and very poor morale. I visited him when I was in London doing my MCC and he and his flat mate were facing warrant sales for non paymeny of council tax and their phone had been cut off!
Instructors phoned in sick all the time near the end of each month as it cost them less to not go to work and to top it all off the 'free' IR at the end was done in very minimal hours (I think 7-8 hours was the expected norm).
So yes the lure of a job with KLMuk looked very attractive to my mate in the beginning but two years at the hands of what is, sadly very typical, poor management ruins that illusion.
It does sound very grim from that, but I do know that many people have stuck it out and are now flying with the airline, BUT you must be aware of just how bad things are in the period of time before that happens, rich parents and an understanding bank manager can be helpful but then this is what companies like Cabair rely on so you dont feel that they are not supporting you like a responsible employer should and they can get their pound of flesh out of you whilst other people support you through it!

Hey Mr B.Tupp,
that's a pretty bleak picture you've painted. I'm glad your mate has found employment elsewhere though.

The FI's lot does not appear to be a happy one whichever school is chosen, from what I've seen (and see).

Hope you're still enjoying life in the 328.

Mr Tupp, your friend- was he a scottish lad by any chance. If it was good luck to him in his new company - he deserves it.Who did he get a job with in the end?

Well, my experience of Cabair was not that above. It was a few years ago, and I wasn't sponsored, but an experienced QFI with some time on my hands. I was never criticised for turning down the opoortunity to fly if the weather wasn't up to the safe and worthwhile execution of a trip, and I never did any ferrying which a student paid for (and I was working at the two biggest schools they have).

The aircraft were very well kept, by flying school standards, and I also have a very soft spot for the types they used, the AA5 and DV20 being great fun and good training aircraft. The PA28s less so, but at least they have some brand new ones.

What did it do for my career? Well, the large amount of multi-engine (lots of it ferrying) time I built whilst with Cabair was a very good thing, and the IR training which I received (all five and a half hours of it before a first time pass - largely because I was so current on the GA7 from all the ferrying) was of top quality.

The airlines know that Cabair do have high expectations, and expect high standards. If you can put up with a fair amount of moaning and some financial hardship, they are a much better bet than your local 'school-in-a-portacabin'.

KLMuk also share a reputation for excellence in training and operational standards, there is no better airline with whom to start your career.

Whatever you do, all the best.

[This message has been edited by Monty Nivo (edited 19 May 2001).]

Monty my dear friend-
Of course your were not criticised for flying when the weather was perhaps not "suitable"-More money for the companies pockets and the student wouldn't know the difference anyway.
I remember one day when the cloud base was low. As soon as it "improved" to 500' operations started moaning- go on you can start to get your IMC students in.And this aerodrome without an instrument approach?Yeah right.Or forcing instructors with "i'll ring the CFI and ask him why you won't fly" - when you've got an early student who obviously needs to see some kind of horizon for his/her early details and its a real merky day with not even a haze layer to help. Or a really windy, bumpy day and you're supposed to teach S&L 1.

I witnessed flights to and from maintenance with students paying rather than it be just a ferry flight.

Monty - you were not sponsored, so did you spend 2 full years at sCabair or just a few months whilst an airline job came up.Remember they have the sponsored guys/gals over a barrel and they know it and they certainly enjoy shafting them any which way they can- instructor or student.I've seen it.

Most of the management try to rule the instructors by threats, here are some that I heard;
Do you WANT to be a pilot?
We will send you to Redhill?(knowing its miles from your home)

When the new european max hours came out last year,and the instructors didn't want to sign the form exempting them, they were individually called in to see a director who said it "could ruin your career!"

Balpa know a lot about sCabair.Give them a call.

They do not treat their instructors with the respect they truly deserve.They are true professionals who have studied hard and sacrificed much only to be treated with contempt and like school children.

Tread carefully, very carefuly.

Frank being honest and frank!!

[This message has been edited by Honest Frank (edited 19 May 2001).]

Frank,

I fear you may have missed my point - if the weather was unsuitable, I didn't fly.

I did spend quite some time at Cabair, and I have also taught at about half-a-dozen other schools. At least Cabair have competent bosses and sound finances, and there was never any shortage of flying. They certainly never treated me like a child, and I accorded them the appropriate respect. I ensured I accorded respect to the AFIs working under/with me.

Bottom line - If I needed an instructing job again, I would be heading their way first.

You're right, I wasn't sponsored, but I know many who were, and they all have 'proper' airline jobs now, either as TP Captains or on jets, with good reputable companies. Bear that in mind.

Instructing can be very frustrating, especially if you view it as 'just hour-building for a proper job'. It is, and should be, more than that, and all instructors should discipline themselves on that point.

As an instructor i can let anyone interested in the klm uk scheme know exactly what's involved.

The main problem with the scheme is the way in which the cabair bosses treat their dedicated and professional instructors. Everything that Honest Frank has to say is sadly the way it is. Morale is at an all time low at most of the schools and i dread to think what it must be like at Elstree.

The scheme sounds wonderful when you read about it in pilot or flight but when you finally get out at cranfield and start to instruct it's a different ball game altogether. The problem here is that it is too late at this stage as you are bonded for the next 2 years to instructing.

What it fails to say in the contract is that you pay for your Instrument Rating when you join klm uk and the bill for this is £12,000! This is based on only 10 hours in the aircraft maximum. Any more and you have to pay for it. On joining the airline you are deducted £333 per month for the first 3 years. This means that you are getting £4000 a year less than everyone else and there is no option on how you repay it.

In the past years instructors have left the scheme before their time is up because they cannot stand it anymore. There have been 2 further departures in recent months as the pay cuts were considered to be the last straw. You will spend close to 3 years at cabair from start to finish plus a further 3 at klm uk so i would advise anyone entering in to it to make sure they know what they are doing. 6 years is a very long time to be tied into any contract.

The pay scheme is a joke too. In order to get around the minimum wage you get payed for 4 days a week but you are "advised" to work a fifth day voluntarily. You only get paid for this extra day if you fly a certain number of hours a month. This means that most bad weather months cost you extra money in petrol for going in on that fifth day and working for nothing! Not to mention that as a sponsored instructor you will receive a reduced wage which basically goes towards your instructor upgrade training.

If you want some advice for the interview then do not let on that you have any concerns about pay and conditions as they will not want to know. Also, you will be asked if you mind working this extra day and also if you will work more than 48 hours a week. Yes, you can probably guess which candidates will receive automatic letters of regection.

The one good point is that if you have worked for cabair then future employers will feel sorry for you as they all know what they are like. My advice would be to pay for your training yourself and if you must instruct for cabair under the scheme then read up on employment law and join balpa immediately. Take your contract to a specialist and get them to tell you how to get out of it should/when you feel the need to do so.

The best thing to do is go along to elstree and speak to the current instructors, that is, if there are any left!

PS i believe Honest Frank is correct to assume the identity of the most recent escapee.

The sad thing is that so many keen wannabees think this is the easy way to an airline job...

Monty-
"Competent bosses and sound finances"

These same competent bosses that try to rule by school boy bully tactics.
These same bosses who do not WANT to listen to their professionally qualified staff.
These same bosses who treat their employees like second class citizens when it comes to conditions at work.
These same bosses who cannot be approached with any sort of problem.
These same bosses who implemented such ridiculous pay changes that instructors had to find a second job to help with bills.

And as far as sound finances- where were these sound finances when it came to the 4 day working week. If they were that sound then why cut the week down to four days and suggest the instructors come in on the 5th day at their own expense to try to meet targets.

Conditions when working at Cabair could include;
A crew room no bigger than the average family bathroom.
The rule that no kettles are allowed in the crew rooms.
Hot or spicy food is not to be eaten on the premises (even in the crew room).
A drinks machine that is always breaking down or has run out of water.(nice on a hot summer afternoon when you've just been talking your bo**ocks off and need a drink) I remember one of those water dispensers being delivered one day.The chief cod Thiefcote saw it, went ape*hit and sent it back even before it was plugged in.The customers would abuse it he thought.Well how about putting it in the crew room so employees can use it.No such chance.
A flying programme that allows no breaks for food or rest.Its up to the instructor to make time.But on most days its impossible because of students needs.So you would find yourself gulping down a sandwich as your next student is walking in the door.
When not flying because of weather you could be used by anyone for any tasks,ie driving to the bank, driving to pick up spares,(if using your own car a few bob could be made) putting brochures in envelopes, and a favourite of the exbinman director was to put the aircraft in registration order on the apron??????ARSE
When the wx is crap being told by a jumped up short-a*se a*se wipe who can and who cannot go to Maccy D's.(you know who you are)

You wanna know more?

[This message has been edited by Honest Frank (edited 20 May 2001).]

Go Frank Go! http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/dh.gif

Go on my son!!!!
Thats exactly how it is.

This all sounds dreadful

- Very bad PR

Honest Frank,

I don't want this to develop into a slanging match with you, but I hope I can reply to one or two of your points.

Please bear in mind that I have been in the airline business now for several years.

First, let me say that I haven't been at Cabair for quite some years now, so things may have changed, but I did spend a long time instructing there and elsewhere from about '89 onwards.

You mention 'bully boy tactics'. Obviously you haven't worked for an airline yet, and when you do, you will find some of these tactics present in most of them. Read the other forums here.

Second class conditions - you're only a flying instructor, and you're lucky to be at a busy school with plenty of work about. When I say 'competent' I mean that the school will probably be there on Monday morning, and there will probably be students to fly. They can afford to maintain the aeroplanes and pay your wages.

If you can't approach your boss with a problem, what does that say about your personal skills? How will you get on at an airline where the problems are bigger and the bosses often more imposing?

The pay changes I can't comment on - I was well-paid whilst there.

Crew rooms? Go and check out your local 'flying school in a Portacabin' to make a comparison. I always found them quaintly attractive...

Food and drink moans... Are you going to join a 'low cost' operator? Take a bottle or a flask and stop being a big baby.

Gulping down your sandwich - well, I used to arrange my programme to cover a quick break by having a competent 12&13 student at lunchtime, say, who didn't need a lot of briefing, thus making time for a quick lunch. Perhaps that's not your style, but you do need to eat, so make time or run late?

Other duties? Show some commitment. I really do think you should go and try some other outfits on waterlogged grass airfields with unheated huts for offices and two run-down C-152s before having a go like this. What do you expect from your future airline employer? If you have a medical problem, they'll get you in to work doing menial tasks too, if the weather is too poor, you'll sit around on your back-side until Crewing tell you to go home (and you'll be taking your orders then from an 18-year old school leaver with no formal training to speak of who is effectively running your life).

I'm sorry to be so patronising, but my message is 'wake up and grow up'. If you need 'out' of Cabair that quickly, e-mail me and I'll do my best to help you out.

Monty-

Too late

How long ones been in the Airline business doesn't matter a toss when it comes to telling the truth from experience.And I am telling others how it WAS so they can prepare themselves if that is what they want.Better than painting a rosy, bright picture from experience some 12 years previous that is so out of date.

OK- when you were there everything was rosy-nice-but when I was there it was *****.And if you were to pay a visit now and talk to the instructors they I'm sure would back me up 100%.Things have changed my friend I'm afraid.
I am also in the Airline industry but unlike yourself I don't deserve a medal it seems.
I have worked in many other types of industry including the building trade with many diferent types of bosses and fellow employees.So nothing wrong with my personal skills there.
Tell me something, how do you approach a boss that quite plainly says to your face "I haven't got time to speak to you, I'm going home and besides the matters closed!" And you have already written to him twice outlining the problems you could face.
They know that you wont chase things up in case you lose your sponsorship.They DO try and rule by threat ie.mess with me and I will ruin your career before it starts.

Problems at an airline bigger.Problems cant come any bigger than any sort of personal problem that affects the individual and their partners future. And how are bosses at an airline more imposing- Any boss be it airline or flying establihment can have an affect on your future.

Havent seen any bullying tactics in the airline industry to compare with the school boy type of bullying used by sCabair.

"You're ONLY a flying instructor"
Oh dear, my dear Monty.You'll probably get lynched for that one.Hope that you dont turn to your co-pilot and say "you're only an F/O!" (That is if you are a capt)Don't you think that every employee(hod-carrier to airline pilot) should be treated like a human being.Or are you still living in the "jumpers for goalposts," "I remember when," "youngsters these days," etc era.I think you are. So if one is lucky enough to find themselves at a busy flying school they are supposed to be grateful forever more and take the conditions with a pinch of salt and keep quiet.Come off it what year is this Monty.Its 2001 if you havent realised yet.
You were so clever in organising 12 & 13 round about lunchtime.You are my hero.So you managed that every day. Wow you star.You must have even got operations to do that for you too when students phoned up for a lesson and you were out.Clever boy."Sorry he can only do circuits at that time sir."
Running late- sometimes possible, but with IMC students later on with beacons booked not so easy. Or with students who have businesses to run, work to go to and with operations having worked out your programme to fit in with the sometimes lack of aircraft- not so easy.

And I've got no problem in taking orders from an 18 year old if thats his job. Clearly you have.
You obviously have been in the airline industry too long to think that you are so important that no-one else should be allowed to say anything you disagree with even if it is backed up by fact.
Listen to others point of view---ermmmm-----CRM I think its called.But ofcourse you knew that, with all them years in the airlines.

Yours HONESTLY,

FRANK xxx

[This message has been edited by Honest Frank (edited 22 May 2001).]