flight visibility??
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,648
Likes: 2
From: UK
Schedule 8 Part A Section 2 (which is what you're trying to cite, I think) sets out the privileges and limitations of a JAR-FCL licence issued by the UK CAA. It doesn't apply to holders of JAR-FCL licences issued by other states.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
From: uk
Homeguard,
You are ignoring me again!
You are again wrong in so many ways. You said, referring to the uk ppl holder,
this is incorrect! As i, and DFC have pointed out
the holder shall not fly:
(i)........
(ii)when the aeroplane is taking off or landing at any place if the flight visibility below cloud is less than 1800 metres.
As for goddammits point, goddammit is correct! the ANO deatails the priviliges for the holder of a JAR licence flying in the UK, irrespective of where it was issued!!
(A further example of a UK difference is the fact one can't fly VFR at night in the UK. This also applies to all, irrespective of which state issued the licence!!)
You are ignoring me again!
You are again wrong in so many ways. You said, referring to the uk ppl holder,
The ANO then will allow the IMC Pilot to take off and land using 1500m viz.
the holder shall not fly:
(i)........
(ii)when the aeroplane is taking off or landing at any place if the flight visibility below cloud is less than 1800 metres.
As for goddammits point, goddammit is correct! the ANO deatails the priviliges for the holder of a JAR licence flying in the UK, irrespective of where it was issued!!
(A further example of a UK difference is the fact one can't fly VFR at night in the UK. This also applies to all, irrespective of which state issued the licence!!)
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,648
Likes: 2
From: UK
The difference, vfrflyer, is in the application of the two regulations:
Schedule 8 is cited by Art 22(1)(a) and pertains to licences issued by the CAA. It has no other purpose. A foreign licence is accepted by Art 21 (3) or (4) quite independently of Schedule 8.
By contrast, Rule 22 of the rules of the air, prohibiting VFR at night, and the rest of the Rules of the Air, get their force from Art 84, and apply to all aircraft flying in the UK, regardless of their nationality.
Schedule 8 is cited by Art 22(1)(a) and pertains to licences issued by the CAA. It has no other purpose. A foreign licence is accepted by Art 21 (3) or (4) quite independently of Schedule 8.
By contrast, Rule 22 of the rules of the air, prohibiting VFR at night, and the rest of the Rules of the Air, get their force from Art 84, and apply to all aircraft flying in the UK, regardless of their nationality.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
From: uk
Bookworm
I think i now see why the VFR at night is a different issue, thanks
I still don't accept that a jar-ppl can come over from france and fly VFR in 1500m vis.
The ANO schedule8 section 2 is stating what the licence priviliges are for the holder of a JAR-PPL, it doesn't say those priviliges only apply in the UK.
This is surely what JAR is all about, standardising Licencing. Are you suggesting that priviliges vary from one member state to another? If so what was the point of joining JAR??
I think i now see why the VFR at night is a different issue, thanks
I still don't accept that a jar-ppl can come over from france and fly VFR in 1500m vis.
The ANO schedule8 section 2 is stating what the licence priviliges are for the holder of a JAR-PPL, it doesn't say those priviliges only apply in the UK.
This is surely what JAR is all about, standardising Licencing. Are you suggesting that priviliges vary from one member state to another? If so what was the point of joining JAR??
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,648
Likes: 2
From: UK
I still don't accept that a jar-ppl can come over from france and fly VFR in 1500m vis.
The ANO schedule8 section 2 is stating what the licence priviliges are for the holder of a JAR-PPL, it doesn't say those priviliges only apply in the UK.
This is surely what JAR is all about, standardising Licencing. Are you suggesting that priviliges vary from one member state to another? If so what was the point of joining JAR??
The ANO schedule8 section 2 is stating what the licence priviliges are for the holder of a JAR-PPL, it doesn't say those priviliges only apply in the UK.
This is surely what JAR is all about, standardising Licencing. Are you suggesting that priviliges vary from one member state to another? If so what was the point of joining JAR??
22 (1) (a) Subject to sub-paragraph (d) and paragraph (2), the CAA shall grant licences, subject to such conditions as it thinks fit, of any of the classes specified in Part A of Schedule 8 to this Order authorising the holder to act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom, ...
And here's the one that says that the foreign PPL can come and exercise the privileges of his licence:
21 (3) Subject as aforesaid, a person shall not act as a member of the flight crew required by or under this Order to be carried in an aircraft registered in a country other than the United Kingdom unless:
(a) in the case of an aircraft flying for the purpose of public transport or aerial work, he is the holder of an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under the law of the country in which the aircraft is registered or the State of the operator; or
(b) in the case of any other aircraft, he is the holder of an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under the law of the country in which the aircraft is registered or under this Order, and the CAA does not in the particular case give a direction to the contrary
And here's the combination that says that he can come and do exactly the same thing in a G-reg:
21 (1) Subject to the provisions of this article, a person shall not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom unless he is the holder of an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order
(4)(b) For the purposes of this Part of this Order, a JAA licence shall, unless the CAA in the particular case gives a direction to the contrary, be deemed to be a licence rendered valid under this Order.
Note that in no part of Art 21 does it say that limitations mentioned in Schedule 8 apply. It doesn't apply to licences other than those isssued by the UK CAA under the provisions of Art 22.
As for standardisation, privileges do indeed vary by state of licence issue: a basic PPL with a licence issued by the UK CAA is restricted to 3000 m min vis, 10 km for SVFR, and to flight in sight of the surface. None of those restrictions are part of JAR-FCL1.
JAR-FCL didn't change the situation in this regard. But it does mean that when you go to another JAA member state and roll up at a flying club, your JAR-FCL licence should be accepted for flight in their aircraft (subject to the same restrictions as you would be in the UK). In pre-JAA days, there was no obligation for your licence to be recognised for flight in aircraft registered in the other state. Some states (like the UK) said "fine", others wanted you to complete reams of validation paperwork.
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
From: HERE AND THERE
My interest has been aroused.
I'm not really up to speed on FCL.
Bookworm has accurately quoted the ANO.
So i think we all agree that the CAA will issue licences as described in schedule8.
The priviliges of the jar-ppl are described in schedule8.
But i have to agree that, nowhere does it say that these priviliges only apply to licences issued by the CAA.
The way i read it, schedule 8 details the priviliges of a JAR-PPL while 22(1)a just says the CAA will grant such licences.
Is jar-fcl1 a document? is it available online? What does it say are the priviliges of a JAR_PPL?
I'm not really up to speed on FCL.
Bookworm has accurately quoted the ANO.
So i think we all agree that the CAA will issue licences as described in schedule8.
The priviliges of the jar-ppl are described in schedule8.
But i have to agree that, nowhere does it say that these priviliges only apply to licences issued by the CAA.
The way i read it, schedule 8 details the priviliges of a JAR-PPL while 22(1)a just says the CAA will grant such licences.
None of those restrictions are part of JAR-FCL1
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,648
Likes: 2
From: UK
You need to understand the structure of the ANO. The Statutory Instrument consists of a series of Articles. Those Articles incorporate by reference other chunks of text, notably the Schedules 1 to 15 and other pieces of legislation like the Rules of the Air Regulations. The Schedules do not in themselves mean anything -- they are meaningful only in the context in which they are incorporated in the ANO.
For example, if you didn't read Art 14, you might not realise that Schedule 4 applies only to aircraft registered in the UK. If you didn't read Art 15, you might not realise that Schedule 5 applies to all aircraft in UK airspace.
Schedule 8 is meaningful only as incorporated by Arts 22 to 26. The pages of CAP393 are now anotated to that effect.
To make matters clearer
the ANO actually distinguishes between a JAA licence which is a licence granted (by any JAA state) in accordance with JAR-FCL, and a JAR-FCL licence which is a licence refered to in Schedule 8 Part A Section 2 -- i.e. the licences the CAA issues.
Yes it's online. I warn you, BOOKLADY, it's a riveting read and you won't be able to put it down... 
In a rather complex way, it simply restricts the PPL to non-revenue flights, and to get at the bit you want, you need to look at the section on the privileges of the IR. That says you need an IR to fly IFR, unless national legislation requires you to fly IFR (e.g. at night) and you have appropriate qualifications. Guess which JAA state had that little gem put in. 
You'll be relieved that it says nothing about provision of Approach Control Services outside controlled airspace...
For example, if you didn't read Art 14, you might not realise that Schedule 4 applies only to aircraft registered in the UK. If you didn't read Art 15, you might not realise that Schedule 5 applies to all aircraft in UK airspace.
Schedule 8 is meaningful only as incorporated by Arts 22 to 26. The pages of CAP393 are now anotated to that effect.
To make matters clearer
the ANO actually distinguishes between a JAA licence which is a licence granted (by any JAA state) in accordance with JAR-FCL, and a JAR-FCL licence which is a licence refered to in Schedule 8 Part A Section 2 -- i.e. the licences the CAA issues.
Is jar-fcl1 a document? is it available online? What does it say are the priviliges of a JAR_PPL?
In a rather complex way, it simply restricts the PPL to non-revenue flights, and to get at the bit you want, you need to look at the section on the privileges of the IR. That says you need an IR to fly IFR, unless national legislation requires you to fly IFR (e.g. at night) and you have appropriate qualifications. Guess which JAA state had that little gem put in. You'll be relieved that it says nothing about provision of Approach Control Services outside controlled airspace...
