Renewal By Experience versus Flight Test
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Renewal By Experience versus Flight Test
Hi
I am due to renew my JAR PPL in the next few months (when the weather gets better)
Some questions:
1. How does the renewal by experience differ from a standard Flight Test for the initial issue of the JAR PPL ?
2. Can any instructor do the renewal by experience or does it also have to be an examiner ?
3. Can any training organisation do the renewal by experience or does it have to be an FTO ?
4. I fly a taildragger all the time - it's on a permit and flies from a strip - can I use the A/C and the strip for the purposes of the test or does it have to be a CofA aeroplane and a licenced aerodrome ?
5. Is a taildragger Ok for the test - I just don't fly the trike things...
6. I'm in East Anglia, is there anyone that people recommend to do my renewal ? (don't run out before September but I'm forward planning)
Think that's all for now..........
cheers
Arc
I am due to renew my JAR PPL in the next few months (when the weather gets better)
Some questions:
1. How does the renewal by experience differ from a standard Flight Test for the initial issue of the JAR PPL ?
2. Can any instructor do the renewal by experience or does it also have to be an examiner ?
3. Can any training organisation do the renewal by experience or does it have to be an FTO ?
4. I fly a taildragger all the time - it's on a permit and flies from a strip - can I use the A/C and the strip for the purposes of the test or does it have to be a CofA aeroplane and a licenced aerodrome ?
5. Is a taildragger Ok for the test - I just don't fly the trike things...
6. I'm in East Anglia, is there anyone that people recommend to do my renewal ? (don't run out before September but I'm forward planning)
Think that's all for now..........
cheers
Arc
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1. The renewal by experience only requires you to do a training flight or 1 hr. Note this is not a test, but other threads debate this.
2. Any instructor for the PPL can do the training flight and sign your logbook. Only an examiner can confirm this in your license.
3. Errr. What other training organisation other than an FTO could do it. BSM
4. I don't think Permit to fly types can be used for SEPL class ratings it must be Group A. Awaiting correction from other Ppruners though.
5. Subject to it being group A, no problem.
6. Sorry, I'm from the North West.
Good luck.
FIS
2. Any instructor for the PPL can do the training flight and sign your logbook. Only an examiner can confirm this in your license.
3. Errr. What other training organisation other than an FTO could do it. BSM
4. I don't think Permit to fly types can be used for SEPL class ratings it must be Group A. Awaiting correction from other Ppruners though.
5. Subject to it being group A, no problem.
6. Sorry, I'm from the North West.
Good luck.
FIS
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My understanding is that if your aeroplane is on a permit, you can, as a member of the PFA, use one of their authorised Coaches instead of an instructor for your one hour training flight. I do not think that there is a problem using your tailwheel aircraft and strip although if you want to do circuits you may need to go to a licensed field as you could be in breach of rule 5 to do touch and goes at a farmstrip. Since the flight is not a flight for the prupose of gaining a rating or licence merely to revalidate an existing licence and rating use of the permit aircraft is unlikely to be a problem but the flight has to be logged as PUT, so I guess you will need to have dual controls in case (in the ulikely event) the other pilot needs to take control.
AHHRRGGHHH!!! So many mistakes in this thread!
Where do I start?
Arclite01, if you've met all the experience requirements with the exception of the 1 hour training flight, then you won't be 'renewing', you'll be 're-validating' your SEP Class Rating, not your licence.
The 1 hour training flight has NO mandatory content, the AIC on the subject is a recommendation only.
You do not need to conduct the training flight at a FTO or a RF (there is a difference, field in sight) for that matter - it is not ab-initio training.
There is no such thing as a 'Group A' aeroplane.
The flight may be flown with a FI, FI(R) under appropriate supervision, FE or CRI. All PFA 'coaches' are now JAR-FCL CRIs and may conduct the 1 hour training flight.
You do NOT need to log it as Pu/t - you can log it however you like except P1C or P2. My recommendation would be to log it as P1/S.
The ac must have dual controls.
I'm pretty sure that you may fly with a FI/CRI in a Permit aeroplane (not being a Microlight) for this purpose, but check with the CAA. Ask if you may do so, I'd suggest.
And finally, you won't need to pay the CAA anything. It's a refesher training session, not a test. So find a friendly FI and have fun! The last '1 hour training flights' I've done have included aeros in a Chippy, a session on cross-wind landings and PFLs - and general revision plus an ILS. Make the most of what you feel you'd like some reminders about!
Where do I start?
Arclite01, if you've met all the experience requirements with the exception of the 1 hour training flight, then you won't be 'renewing', you'll be 're-validating' your SEP Class Rating, not your licence.
The 1 hour training flight has NO mandatory content, the AIC on the subject is a recommendation only.
You do not need to conduct the training flight at a FTO or a RF (there is a difference, field in sight) for that matter - it is not ab-initio training.
There is no such thing as a 'Group A' aeroplane.
The flight may be flown with a FI, FI(R) under appropriate supervision, FE or CRI. All PFA 'coaches' are now JAR-FCL CRIs and may conduct the 1 hour training flight.
You do NOT need to log it as Pu/t - you can log it however you like except P1C or P2. My recommendation would be to log it as P1/S.
The ac must have dual controls.
I'm pretty sure that you may fly with a FI/CRI in a Permit aeroplane (not being a Microlight) for this purpose, but check with the CAA. Ask if you may do so, I'd suggest.
And finally, you won't need to pay the CAA anything. It's a refesher training session, not a test. So find a friendly FI and have fun! The last '1 hour training flights' I've done have included aeros in a Chippy, a session on cross-wind landings and PFLs - and general revision plus an ILS. Make the most of what you feel you'd like some reminders about!
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Revalidation
I add a little note.
The training flight for the purpose of revalidation must be undertaken with a JAA Instructor/CRI for it to be valid and cannot be less than 1 hour in duration and must also be undertaken during a single flight. The JAA Instructor/CRI then annotates your log book to the effect that you have satisfied the requirement. THIS FLIGHT DOSN'T AUTOMATICALLY REVALIDATE YOU!
You must, before your validaty expires, have your licence signed by a JAA Examiner. If you overun the revalidation date you will have lapsed and are grounded. You will then need to undertake a RENEWAL TEST with a JAA Examiner in a dual controlled aeroplane that holds a C of A (Private or Public). Public if you are not a 5%+ beneficial share holder. The test content is no more than the recommended content for the revalidation training flight. It is not a full Skill Test.
BEagle has made all the other points that you must bear in mind. Training cannot normally be undertaken in a PFA aeroplane but has been said, ask! Don't ask, don't get.
The training flight for the purpose of revalidation must be undertaken with a JAA Instructor/CRI for it to be valid and cannot be less than 1 hour in duration and must also be undertaken during a single flight. The JAA Instructor/CRI then annotates your log book to the effect that you have satisfied the requirement. THIS FLIGHT DOSN'T AUTOMATICALLY REVALIDATE YOU!
You must, before your validaty expires, have your licence signed by a JAA Examiner. If you overun the revalidation date you will have lapsed and are grounded. You will then need to undertake a RENEWAL TEST with a JAA Examiner in a dual controlled aeroplane that holds a C of A (Private or Public). Public if you are not a 5%+ beneficial share holder. The test content is no more than the recommended content for the revalidation training flight. It is not a full Skill Test.
BEagle has made all the other points that you must bear in mind. Training cannot normally be undertaken in a PFA aeroplane but has been said, ask! Don't ask, don't get.
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What BEagle says, apart from the P/UT or P1/S thing. My interpretation is different and that it should be P/UT, as specified in conversations and e-mails with the Belgrano, but we could have a 10 year row about this and neither side would be swayed!
Use the flight as a chance to brush up on any skills that may be rusty, it isn't a test as such but it helps if you know one end of the a/c from the other.
Use the flight as a chance to brush up on any skills that may be rusty, it isn't a test as such but it helps if you know one end of the a/c from the other.
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Revalidation
It is P/ut.
The whole purpose of the flight is training!
P1 or P1s is logged when the pilot is in control of the aircraft and acts, even when not, as if the commander. Such as a First Officer throughout their handling leg or a candidate on test.
Being a training flight, whereby the Pilot is under instruction, the pilot cannot be acting as if the commander and if the Instructor is doing the job correctly will not throughout be controlling the aeroplane. Demonstration, student practice and critique, et al.
The flight if it is to be worthwhile should not simply rest on an Instructor,sat passively, giving no input as if conductiong a test. The Instructor should be pro-active in challenging the Pilot technique/decision making and in so doing demonstrate and providing constructive arguement. The Pilot can of course take it or leave it as they see fit but it is still Pilot under Training.
The whole purpose of the flight is training!
P1 or P1s is logged when the pilot is in control of the aircraft and acts, even when not, as if the commander. Such as a First Officer throughout their handling leg or a candidate on test.
Being a training flight, whereby the Pilot is under instruction, the pilot cannot be acting as if the commander and if the Instructor is doing the job correctly will not throughout be controlling the aeroplane. Demonstration, student practice and critique, et al.
The flight if it is to be worthwhile should not simply rest on an Instructor,sat passively, giving no input as if conductiong a test. The Instructor should be pro-active in challenging the Pilot technique/decision making and in so doing demonstrate and providing constructive arguement. The Pilot can of course take it or leave it as they see fit but it is still Pilot under Training.
Since only P1C hours and mandatory dual training hours are specified for the purpose of licecne issue (apart from TT); it matters not a jot how the flight is logged. Except that it must NOT be logged as P1C.
There is no obligation for the FI/CRI to handle the controls at all, merely directing a series of requirements. You thus have a qualified pilot demonstrating his/her skill. Slightly different to pure 'training'.
There is no obligation for the FI/CRI to handle the controls at all, merely directing a series of requirements. You thus have a qualified pilot demonstrating his/her skill. Slightly different to pure 'training'.
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I have never done a revalidation flight where I haven't had to make a suggestion or demo something. The flight is a chance to brush up on skills and if used as such, then the FI is doing some training.
The arguement about P1/S or P/UT only becomes relevant if the FI does nothing, but as no instructor worth their salt would do that, then the argument doesn't really apply.
"Any licence holder flying a single pilot aircraft, or a student undertaking
a course of flying to obtain a PPL can only log PIC/US after a successful
flight test. All other entries should be P1 or PUT. The only other times
PIC/US can be entered is when a commercial pilot is flying a multi pilot
aircraft. The section of LASORS that you refered to in your email relates to
this multi pilot scenario."
An e-mail I got from the CAA about this issue.
The arguement about P1/S or P/UT only becomes relevant if the FI does nothing, but as no instructor worth their salt would do that, then the argument doesn't really apply.
"Any licence holder flying a single pilot aircraft, or a student undertaking
a course of flying to obtain a PPL can only log PIC/US after a successful
flight test. All other entries should be P1 or PUT. The only other times
PIC/US can be entered is when a commercial pilot is flying a multi pilot
aircraft. The section of LASORS that you refered to in your email relates to
this multi pilot scenario."
An e-mail I got from the CAA about this issue.
'Should' is only a recommendation! It is not a manadatory requirement. And you received a typically ambiguous response form the Belgrano.
In any case, I enter the flight times in my CAP 407 in accordance with para 7 of Part 1 of the document.
In any case, I enter the flight times in my CAP 407 in accordance with para 7 of Part 1 of the document.
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As before we'll have to agree to disagree! I don't see many ambiguities in the statement especially "can only log PIC/US after a successful
flight test."
But this isn't the most important of arguments since the belgrano themselves don't seem to care what people put in their logbooks!
I'll carry on my way and I doubt either of us will ever see any problems about this from FCL!
flight test."
But this isn't the most important of arguments since the belgrano themselves don't seem to care what people put in their logbooks!
I'll carry on my way and I doubt either of us will ever see any problems about this from FCL!
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OK so........
I can use the tailwheel, I can use the strip, any hour with the Instructor will do for revalidation.
Now though I am confused. Can the FI sign the renewal form and I send it off to the CAA or, as some of this thread says do I then need an examiner to sign the renewal ?
A clear answer would be great.......
Oh, and anyone know any examiners in East Anglia - I can collect them !!!!! (by air)
Thanks
Arc
I can use the tailwheel, I can use the strip, any hour with the Instructor will do for revalidation.
Now though I am confused. Can the FI sign the renewal form and I send it off to the CAA or, as some of this thread says do I then need an examiner to sign the renewal ?
A clear answer would be great.......
Oh, and anyone know any examiners in East Anglia - I can collect them !!!!! (by air)
Thanks
Arc
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Be careful of the words 'renewal' and 'revalidation'. They are 2 entirely separate events, requiring different actions.
If you 'revalidate' your class rating before it lapses (any time in the 3 months before expiry) then you can do so 'by experience' OR by flight check (LPC).
If your class rating lapses, even by one day, you can only 'renew' it by flight test (LST) with a JAA examiner.
Back to 'revalidation' by experience: this requires the one hour dual flight with an FI who will sign your logbook if the flight with you was safe. IN ADDITION you must find a JAA examiner who will check your logbook for this dual flight together with the other experience requirements and who will then get you to fill in a LST/LPC form for him to sent to the Belgrano and who will finally sign your licence to revalidate your class rating.
If you 'revalidate' your class rating before it lapses (any time in the 3 months before expiry) then you can do so 'by experience' OR by flight check (LPC).
If your class rating lapses, even by one day, you can only 'renew' it by flight test (LST) with a JAA examiner.
Back to 'revalidation' by experience: this requires the one hour dual flight with an FI who will sign your logbook if the flight with you was safe. IN ADDITION you must find a JAA examiner who will check your logbook for this dual flight together with the other experience requirements and who will then get you to fill in a LST/LPC form for him to sent to the Belgrano and who will finally sign your licence to revalidate your class rating.
Stan Evil, the 3 month prior to expiry period applies only to those intending to re-validate by LPC ('Flight Test') with an Examiner. The re-validation by experience period, including the 1 hour training flight, is 12 months prior to expiry.
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Crikey this is confusing.
It appears that for simplicity I should just find a local examiner, pay and fly with him for an hour and get him to sign for both the 1 hour trip and the licence re-validation all at the same time.
It appears that I can use the Permit aeroplane that I usually fly and although it's a taildragger, that is no problem. Oh and I can use the strip I usually fly from.
Does that sound like a good course of action ?
Next question, where do I find a list of JAA examiners in my area ?
Thanks all
Arc
It appears that for simplicity I should just find a local examiner, pay and fly with him for an hour and get him to sign for both the 1 hour trip and the licence re-validation all at the same time.
It appears that I can use the Permit aeroplane that I usually fly and although it's a taildragger, that is no problem. Oh and I can use the strip I usually fly from.
Does that sound like a good course of action ?
Next question, where do I find a list of JAA examiners in my area ?
Thanks all
Arc
Yes, you can do that. But negotiate the price and make sure he/she knows that it's only the 1 hr training flight that you want to do, NOT the re-validation LPC.
To find an Examiner (FE), just ask the local flying clubs.
Check with the CAA regarding your Permit aeroplane being acceptable for th 1 hour training flight requirement. But do it by e-mail and keep a copy of the reply to show to the FE.....
To find an Examiner (FE), just ask the local flying clubs.
Check with the CAA regarding your Permit aeroplane being acceptable for th 1 hour training flight requirement. But do it by e-mail and keep a copy of the reply to show to the FE.....
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Throwing in my lot here (as a PFA coach and an FI), you can do the dual flight in a PFA permit aircraft (it is not a flight for the purpose of gaining a licence or rating) but, in any case whoever you fly with, whether coach, FI or examiner will need to be qualified to fly a taildragger (ie tailwheel difference training completed and signed up in their logbook, unless they had previously flown taildraggers before that rule came in and threfore have grandfather rights!). Dead simple really!!
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Remember also that, if it's a private category C of A aircraft, then you must comply with ANO Art 130 if money is going to change hands. There is an exemption for an aircraft you own yourself or one that is jointly owned by you and up to 19 others but it still involves getting a maintenance certificate from a licensed engineer. For permit aircraft ANO Art 9A may provide a similar exemption with the permission of the CAA.
BEagle - I stand corrected - it's 12 months for revalidation by experience but it's probably worth emphasising that the 12 month period in which the 12 hours etc must be is ALWAYS from the expiry date NOT backwards from the date you are getting the licence signed if you want the revalidation to run from the expiry date.
BEagle - I stand corrected - it's 12 months for revalidation by experience but it's probably worth emphasising that the 12 month period in which the 12 hours etc must be is ALWAYS from the expiry date NOT backwards from the date you are getting the licence signed if you want the revalidation to run from the expiry date.
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Hi
My biannual is due in March this year. I've completed way over the 12 hours for revalidation, PLUS have done a couple of flights with an instructor, which I believe exceeds the requirement.
However, the instructor hasn't signed my logbook for these flights. Does he have to do this, AS WELL as sign the revalidation form for the CAA, or doen't it matter, because it shows clearly on the aircraft log sheets?
My biannual is due in March this year. I've completed way over the 12 hours for revalidation, PLUS have done a couple of flights with an instructor, which I believe exceeds the requirement.
However, the instructor hasn't signed my logbook for these flights. Does he have to do this, AS WELL as sign the revalidation form for the CAA, or doen't it matter, because it shows clearly on the aircraft log sheets?