The 1 hour flight (different approach).

[Keygrip]

If the one hour dual flight that is required for licence/rating revalidation can be replaced by any test or lesson (even in a different CLASS of aircraft) - does it HAVE to be done in a fixed wing??

Would one hour of helicopter training - or a rotary test - cover it??

If not - why not (by that I mean chapter and verse of the bit that says so in the book - not just your opinion)

[Field In Sight]

The revalidation of the PPL(A) is actually (in most cases) a revalidation of the Single Engine Piston Land Class rating.

Therefore revalidating a helicopter rating would not give you a validated SEPL rating.

The PPL is EFFECTIVELY invalid if there are no valid class ratings on it.

Regardless of valid class ratings on the license it becomes invalid after 5 years anyway unless you fork out more cash to the CAA.

What a complete waste of money the 5 year renewal is

FIS.

[redbar1]

Hi Keygrip,

Nice question! It's always nice with a small break here in the office

You say you want chapter and verse in the book.. ok, a bit long, but here goes:

Your question is based on the text in FCL 1 Amd 2 that says:

(C) a training flight of at least one hour’s duration with a FI(A) or CRI(A). This flight may be replaced by any other proficiency check or skill test for a class or type rating.]

The reference to this is FCL 1.245 (c)(1)(ii)(C). But, if you go back "up" to FCL 1.245(c)(1), the book says:

(1) All single-engine piston aeroplane class ratings (land) and all touring motor glider’s ratings – Revalidation. For revalidation of single-pilot single-engine piston aeroplane (land) class ratings and/or touring motor glider class ratings the applicant shall on single-engine piston aeroplanes (land) and/or touring motor gliders:

(My underscore)
As this is "higher" in the hierarcy, it automatically applies to any other specifications following "below" this one. So, I guess that kind of settles the matter. In addition, your question proposes to mix credits from two different categories of A/C, something that always is specifically mentioned where this is intended to be possible. Sorry. (But thanks for a nice break anyway )

Cheers,
redBar1

[Keygrip]

OK - as I suspected - but your first quote suggests that if you take a flight test for a multi engine piston, single pilot, instrument rating this covers the required flight in an SEP - which cancels out your underscore in the second quote.

So - from the pedantic world - I don't quite see why passing a proficiency check or type rating in a helicopter (assuming the FE(H) was either an FI(A) or FE(A)) wouldn't cover the SEP requirement too.

OK, break over - put the coffee down and get back to work.

[redbar1]

Hi again Keygrip,

Had another coffee, reflecting on your question. After rereading the text, and some conferencing, the conclusion seems to go in this direction:

I actually think it could be possible - it would all be depending on how your State of Licence issue NCAA choose to interpret this JAR-FCL rule.

So I will in all fairness say my initial answer was too quick - maybe too much sugar in the coffee?

cheers,
RedBar1

[homeguard]

SEPL

The CAA has made it very clear that any proficiency check counts.

Such as the 6 month company base check in a heavy jet. Not a single, not a piston nor single crew.

[mad_jock]

Tis true any OPC class check will do.

It caused great discussions by the TRE signing my log book.

Also I note now that the OPC is valid for signing your IMC off as well.

Just shows what useless check the 1 hour with an instructor is.
(standard argument that the instructor isn't trained to do the check anyway)

OPC, 4 hours in the sim PNF PF. V1 cuts and all the like.

How does this proved any gauge of your flying skills in a SEP VFR?

Stalling ? no fully developed stall done

PFLs? aye right

Carb heat? O **** just pulled the turn and pull. err can you run the air relight check list please.

VFR joins? H'mm havn't done one of them for 4 months.

I am sure most instructors have had Heavy jet pilots trying to get there SEP back. And what fun that is flaring at 50ft and them trying to rip the throttle out the console trying to select reverse thrust. Good laugh in the bar ripping the piss though :d .

MJ

[Noggin]

JAR-FCL 1.245 says the training flight may be replaced by any other proficiency check or skill test.

Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.215 lists all of the Classes and Types recognised under JAR-FCL1.

Helicopters are not listed because they are subject to JAR-FCL2 not JAR-FCL1 and therefore tests conducted on them do not count.

[Send Clowns]

Had a Ryan-scare pilot in the back (checking out his friend on the company's aircraft) the other day, saying he should get flying puddle jumpers again. This suggests he only needs a sign off if it has not actually lapsed completely? Any suggesstions as to what I should actually put him through?

[PPRuNe Towers]

Hell???

[Keygrip]

Nope - checked with CAA and the man that I trust says (as did Noggin [no surprise]) that hopterclopters come under FCL2, fixed wing under FCL1.

No transfer of credits between the two - and, by the way, no transfer of credits from one helicopter type to another either.

Ah well - proficiency check then (it's cheaper that the one hour dual).

[Send Clowns]

I would do Towers, if I thought he was the Ryanair pilot who had prevented me getting a word in with Bournemouth tower the other day by having an argument on the frequency about slot times. Different voice though, so I will not hold his colleague's faults against him. Will emphasise patience though, all Ryanair pilots could do with that

[Irv]

Had a Ryan-scare pilot in the back (checking out his friend on the company's aircraft) the other day, saying he should get flying puddle jumpers again. This suggests he only needs a sign off if it has not actually lapsed completely? Any suggesstions as to what I should actually put him through?

Surely he needs the standard SEP renewal test for lapsed SEP rating?

[Send Clowns]

But if it has not he needs only a bit of instructor time, no other SEP flying. Is that correct?

[Irv]

But if it has not he needs only a bit of instructor time, no other SEP flying. Is that correct?

Well if it hasn't lapsed, legally he can get in and go (without passengers). Sensibly and practically though, it's the usual checkout stuff, but I always demo the first approach and landing having had airline pilots try and flare at 30' and another having been warned by colleagues to resist all feelings that 30' was just right, he tried 'minus 5'.
Presumably if his SEP rating is still valid this should not apply, the ones I was talking about hadn't flown SEP since the 60s!

If he builds 12 hours (inc 12 LATOs and at least 6 hours p1) he should be able to get an SEP sign off

[FlyingForFun]

I always demo the first approach and landing having had airline pilots try and flare at 30' and another having been warned by colleagues to resist all feelings that 30' was just right, he tried 'minus 5'.

The perils of instructing!

I can understand how easy this is, though. A while ago, I tried to fly a PA28 (eye-line about 5' above the ground, I guess?), having flown nothing but a Europa (eye-line about 3' above the ground) for the best part of a year. It's hardly on the same level as Send Clown's student, but I still tried to flare at Europa-height, and the results weren't pretty Since then, if I'm in an aircraft which I haven't flown for a while, I always take a moment to look at the picture out of the window before I start the engine, and try to remember that picture as I'm coming into the flare. Has anyone suggested this to airline pilots coming back onto light aircraft? Does it help them?

FFF
------------

[Send Clowns]

I did the same in a 172, FFF, having only flown a 152 for over a year. Unfortunately it was on a SEP revalidation / club annual with my boss Well he shouldn't start to debrief me in the flare, and then I won't bounce his aeroplane.