Multi Engine Instruction Dangers

[B2N2]

Currently working on getting my Multi Instructor rating....the most dangerous form of flight instruction apparently.
What are your experiences with students?
We all know they are perfectly capable of killing you while in the PPl stage, but what are the most common (and dangerous) things they'll pull on you in a multi?
Any horror stories out there?
Which plane what happened and what did you do to safe it?
Any experiences shared appreciated.

[kabz]

Just a few moments I've had as a student, but hopefully gonna be an MEI quite soon :

- Nearly ran one off the runway on the very first takeoff. Instructor hadn't warned me he was going to cut the mixture, but I kinda knew what to do. Kept it on the center-line after that.

- Sat in the back whilst a multi student got slow on a short field, and we just slammed in. This was a classic, cos the guy had been really on top until that point, then got real slow on the last landing and the stall warner started blaring as he started the round out .... eek

- Had a throttle set at sim feather vibrate back on me, and I got slow on approach in a seneca, that was probably my most scary moment in a plane to date, as it was taking everything I had just to fly in a straight line.

- First 'fuel-cut' engine failure in a Travel Air was interesting, cos the engine starts popping and banging and surging before the fuel actually completely quits.

Good luck.

[GT]

In my opinion it's got to be the simulated engine failure on the take-off roll. I really worry about this one! There is only one correct action for the student to take - if they do anything else you've got a problem. For example, had a student who failed to retard the throttles - he tried to control the now present asymmetry with rudder pedal - aeroplane gets airborne single engine turning towards the 'dead' - now flying down the runway sideways - took control and landed back on.

My advice, for what it's worth, is this: line-up and brief the student on what's going to happen and what their response must be. I'm sorry, but this is the one emergency I never spring, I always give warning, not realistic I know but.... If their response is not correct then you bring the 'good' mixture control back to ICO as well, eliminating the asymmetry. Oh, and by the way, let the tower know what you're up to - saves panic all round. Best of luck with the course, great fun.

Regards, GT.

[BigEndBob]

3 of us taking turns at doing some 1179 training with instructor.
New this was going to happen because of the way the checklist was written.
Instructor fails right engine, student idents dead eng. , pulls the throttle to confirm, feathers and mixture, eng. stops then rushes on with rest of checks from checklist, switching mags off killing the live engine! aircraft yaws.
Realises mistake switches mags on, engine made some interesting noises.

I,ve always taught once the aircraft has been CONTROLLED, the dead engine has been CONFIRMED and the problem CONTAINED then unless a fire is burning the wing off DON'T touch anything until you have double checked and re confirmed which engine you have shut down.
If necessary rewrite checklist so that there is a pause after mixture ICO.

Saves a lot of embarrasment (and lives).

[big pistons forever]

I have about 2000 hours of instructing including PPL, CPL, IRT, night rating, Tailwheel conversion and aerobatics. About 60 of the 2000 hours was initial training for the multi rating. ALL of the really scarey moments instructing were in that 60 hours. They included

1. A student inexplicably aplying full up elevator when I failed an engine during a simulated overshoot (at altitude thank god ). The airplane instantly stalled and snap rolled. I took control with the airplane inverted and pitched 45 deg nose down

2. A X airforce lightjet pilot who on short final got the knobs mixed up and pulled the blue ones all the way back when he meant to reduce power

3. A student who selected gear up instead of flaps up during a touch and go ,thereby writing off the airplane and ending 13 years of accident free flying for me ( Thats why I never do touch and go's in complex airplanes anymore )

My advice.

1. Fully brief your flight and be very clear about what you exect the student to do.

2. Don't fail any engines close to the ground

3. Don't let your guard down for a second. It is incredable how fast things can turn to S***

[alphaalpha]

I speak from a student's point of view, not an instructor's. This experience was about four years ago.

I was genuinely scared when I got things wrong going-around off a single engine approach in a C310. I understood the correct sequence was: full power/full fine/full rich; pitch-up as you clean the aeroplane up: i.e. gear up and (while the gear is transiting) flaps up.

I hadn't twigged that the flaps should come up in stages. I was very focussed on getting the aeroplane clean as quickly as possible, so as to get some climb performance. As I reached flaps fully up, the stall warner started to sound very loudly. It needed a significant pitch down to recover flying speed. I don't remember the exact height, I guess we went around at commital height, so not very high.

I will never forget the moment, and hopefully never, ever make the same mistake again.

AA

[Tinstaafl]

After concentrating on keeping the a/c tits up & moving forward I got my students to STOP!, take a breath & then act in a (relatively) calm & unrushed manner. Not dawdling, but not moving knobs about until they've taken the time to reconsider the move.

[machonepointone]

I note some of the replies with a mixture of amusement and amazement. I am a multi-engine instructor with over 7000 instructional hours, of which close to 2000 are on twin piston aeroplanes. Now the very last thing I want to do is sound as though I know it all or make as though I am better than everybody out there. However, there were some comments that made the hairs on the back of my neck rise.

First were the ones from BigEndBob and let_me_fly who related the stories of when a student switched off the wrong mags. They do not say at what altitude this happened, but my questions are these: - Whatever happened to touch drills? How come a student is allowed (taught?) to switch magnetos off? Again, without knowing the exact circumstances, whatever happened to the rules about not shutting an engine down for practice below 3000 feet agl?

Next are the gems from kabz and GT who talk about retarding mixtures to simulate an engine failure. What, pray, is the problem with merely retarding the throttle to idle? The asymmetry is just as obvious and the technique is exactly the same. Difference is that it is all being done with two operating engines (albeit one of them is at idle). In all the time I have been instructing on twins the schools I have worked for NEVER used the mixture to simulate an engine failure.

On a lighter note, and to answer the original question from B2N2, I had a student some years back who applied the wrong rudder while practising an EFATO (fortunately at altitude). The aircraft behaved as expected and rolled very quickly through 360 degrees, by which time I had managed to close the other throttle. On remonstrating with him for applying the wrong rudder he passed the blame on to me for failing the wrong engine.

[Hudson]

Twin engine training is quite safe as such. It is the idiot instructors who are likely to get you killed. Those that cut the mixture control to "simulate ' engine failure at low altitude or on the runway are the most dangerous of them all.

For some strange reason it seems that Australian flying school instructors are the hairy chested ones that cut the mixture control. In UK the practice of mixture cuts is banned and in USA there is an NTSB warning against the practice as too dangerous. But not in good old OZ where only wimps use throttle closure to simulate engine failure. Youse have gotta be realistic matey, is the mixture cut motto.

Before embarking on a twin endorsement or initial twin training as a student, ensure you know exactly what method of simulated engine failure your instructor prefers to use. If he says mixture control simply offer to break his arm if he touches the mixture control - or just walk away and find an intelligent instructor - not a mixture cut cowboy.

Pilots and students have been killed using mixture cuts and in every case it is the instructor that started the chain of events that led to crash -burn-die a painful death.

[Keygrip]

Same story - different approach.

Piper Seminole. "Old style". All the switches mounted on the left cabin wall - by the pilots elbow.

Top row has four magneto switches and a two-way rocker switch for engine starting. Second row has landing light, nav lights, strobes, left fuel pump, right fuel pump. Third row just battery and alternator fields.

Cute little (multi-engine qualified) pilot gets airborne, climbs to 1,000 feet agl. and then turns off both fuel pumps at the same time. Problem is, he uses the top row of switches, not the second row. So, both right engine mags are now off - but with good fuel pressure.

The subsequent noises did make me sit up straight.

In a voice one octave louder than normal I emphasised that I had "done nothing - the problem was genuine" (as briefed for any aircraft malfunctions below 3,000 agl.).

I then spotted the cause - the right mags were both off. In a slightly lower voice I explained to pilot that he had turned off the mags and that it would probably reduce our tension if he were to turn both magneto switches back on again.

Now - somebody, please explain to me why the guy turned OFF the two left mags instead of turning ON the two right mags.

Despite a shoulder harness I managed to move sideways at an alarming rate and turned them all back on again.

Circle to land. Flight over!!

[M.85]

B2N2,
The best way to answer your question would be i believe:"what did I do to scare my instructor when I was a student..."
You may learn a lot that way

Happy and Safe flying

M.85

[BigEndBob]

I have never had any problems pulling the mixture back on a fully briefed student to simulate engine failure on the runway.
It is the only realistic way to do this exercise as the student should have a good grasp of the throttles ready to retard at the first sign of engine failure and it is difficult as an instructor to get a hold of a throttle. At recovery a full power check should be done before proceeding with further flying.
I seem to remember the CAA recommending not to pull mixture on climb out! Who would? We have all heard of instructors who do, the same ones try and do touch and goes with a cold engine
following sim. asymmetric landing.

Unless you are above 3000 feet then the mixture should never be pulled and in any case it is pointless as an exercise as the student can see which engine is going to fail. Much better to shut off the fuel.

My mag experience was as a rear seat pax awaiting my turn in the front left seat whilst type rating training on Seneca.
This was the students 3-4 hour in twins.
We were at 4000 ( and descending).
The instructor was ex airline with a zillion hours, sometimes you can't stop a student doing something you don't want him to do.
Brief, dry run and well written checklists are the key

[big pistons forever]

RTO

You cut the mixture at rotation . I think anybody who does that in a light twin is out of their MIND

[kabz]

Just one point, a full shutdown of one engine at altitude is a part of the faa multi ride.

On my private, this was done with the fuel selector.

On my commercial, I had to remind the examiner to do it, so he just pulled the mixture to cut-off. Just as well someone remembered.

[witchdoctor]

I remember my multi FI turning several interesting colours after he failed one of the engines at the start of our crosswind turn during assy circuits. The 'dead' engine was the inside engine and I was too slow to get full rudder in. Unsurprisingly the a/c rolled into the turn very quickly, and at 600' or so with a climbing a/c and dropping airspeed, being at some 60 - 70 degrees of bank and increasing I can understand his discomfort.

Happily, he caught the a/c a fraction before me and all turned out OK, but my flying buddy in the back was white for weeks.

[big pistons forever]

RTO


Your post said ( in relation to engine cuts on Take off ) quote The mixture cut is OK for a fairly switched on student and adds a touch of realism IMO unquote. Based on that statement I concluded you believe it is OK to cut the mixture thereby causing a total engine failure while the aircraft is very close to the ground at or only slightly above VMC, and almost certainly below blueline. Yes I guess a smoking hole right next to the runway would add a " touch of realism " ....

[BigEndBob]

big pistons forever


I noted your comments regard flap and touch and go....i always raise the flap for the student and call out "Flap up, take off" the student then applies full power. Gives me a few seconds to abort if things aren't going right.

Also caution aircraft with electric flaps (cessna340), it can take the full length of a 1000m runway on touch and go for them to retract from full flap and stop producing drag. Full flap will always be a full stop landing.

Also from an instructors view always make sure the heaters work.
It can get quite cold at even 5000 feet here in the UK.
The student won,t notice the cold!

P.S. anybody know why Piper wired the stall warners through the u/c squat switch on the Seminole so that they can't be checked on the ground...seems a bit barmy to me, is there a reason?

[big pistons forever]

BIG END BOB

Your method is a good way to go if you want to do touch and goes. In the end I made the personal decision not to do touch and goes in complex aircraft for a couple of reasons.

1. I always insist that my students not to do ANYTHING untill the aircraft is clear of the runway. This is policy is pretty much a guarantee that the wheels will not be retracted on the ground or you will hit anything because you are head down doing stuff instead of looking where you are going. This policy has to be violated to do a touch and go and it represents a training inconsistancy I want to avoid.

2. A taxi back allows the student to relax for a second and mentally prepare for the takeoff and also allows the vital pretakeoff checks to be done in an unhurried and complete basis.
I also find this is the only time many students have any free brain cells which allows them to actually absorb the advice I am giving them.

3. IMO a touch and go bypasses an important part of the takeoff. Developing good habits in the monitoring of engine and flight instruments so that bad things will be detected early enough for an uneventfull on the runway RTO. I beat my students pretty hard to develop an efficent scan and get the required calls done properly.

OH Ya one other thing. I tell all students if they ever touch the gear lever when the aircraft is on the ground I will break all their fingers

[BigEndBob]

Safety aside it would be very nice to terminate each landing in a full stop, but in the Uk with average dual training costing £230 ($380 us ) an hour we are always thinking of the cost to the student.
We never live in ideal worlds.
What value can we put on the chance of things going wrong?

[big pistons forever]

BigEndBob

My accident happened near the ( preplanned ) end of my instructing career. For the last 13 or so years I have held non instructor flying jobs and only did a bit of instructing on the side. The beauty of this, is of course I can instruct on my terms, of which one is no touch and goes in complex aircraft. Actually no, the best part is I am not obligated to deal with the inevitable morons that walk in the door of the flying school. Any way back to topic.

The real question IMO is wether or not the student can land a light twin. My experience has been that my students only take a couple of tries to make acceptable and safe landings. Therefore I feel more practice is essentially wasted. I would prefer to use the time to practice balked approaches, emergencies in the circuit etc. If I did have a student who had difficulty with landings then I am almost certainly seeing someone missing essential flying skills and would strongly recommend he/she got some dual on a intermediate ( and much cheaper ) complex single, before carrying on. In the long run I think this would probably save the student money. If they insisted on carrying on then, yes a series of touch and goes woud probably be appropriate untill the student gots their act together. However I would brief that when all three wheels are on the ground I will loudly and firmly call " I have control " they would then put their hands on their lap and I would reconfigure the aircraft , apply full power rotate and hand over the aircraft when it was above blue line and climbing. Since the aircraft is still moving fast the time from full power to rotate is only going to be a few seconds and I am the best equiped to deal with an actual emergency. Frankly I don't think the student is missing much because if they are still having trouble landing I can guarantee while ther hand may be advancing the throttles, their brain is still calling red blues and greens final check complete .

However I can appreciate you may not get a vote and must instruct the way your CFI says. In that case all I can say is you have to be totally alert. I was only a half second too slow on my fatefull day