Multi Engine Instruction Dangers

[despegue]

I fondly remember my ME instructor!

We did airwork during night-flights ( "do you think stalls only occur in sunshine amigo?)

On final, he had the habit of just turning the fuel selector off on one engine, saying nothing... I sure learned how to identify a real engine failure... (also, he forbade me to feather while on final approach if glide-path and blue line could be kept. )

During my first hour, he gave me an engine failure (at 4000') in the hold, in IMC (night) where I had to complete the drills including feathering and restarting.

Conclusion, yes, some might consider this "dangerous", but it made me a better pilot. He knew what he was doing (4000h multi-instructor, JAA CPL/ME examiner).

Oh, and all on a Seneca1!

[pilotbear]

Well at last, finally someone who understands. If they don't know what really happens they will die during their first real emergency.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

WOW :

I shouldn't read the instructors thread, just scares the hell out of me to read what some people get away with as flight instructors.

I will not do the following.

(1) Use a fuel shut off to fail an engine.

(2) Use the mixture to fail an engine.

(3) Practice go arounds on one engine below a safe altitude and never less than 3000 above ground.

(4) Fully feather an engine unless it must be feathered due to a mechanical failure.

Before anyone starts all the B.S. about how important it is for a student to see a propellor stopped all you have to do is let them look at it before you start the engines on the ramp....and I have probably flown more miles with engines shut down and feathered than most on here, and it was never comfortable, especially way up in the high Arctic hundreds of miles from the nearest airport.

Now I know a lot of you out there are going to jump all over my methods, but I am still alive and instructing on large multi engine piston airplanes. And I have managed to get through some where around thirty thousand hours flying most everything with wings or rotors. And never smashed one up.

Just my thoughts on all this for what ever its worth.

And all the best in the new year and all those after....

Chuck E

[B2N2]

OK I'm a Multi Instructor now

OK ladies and gentlemen, I passed my test yesterday.
Thank you very much for all your stories and replies.
Keep them coming please, I actually remembered some of them as I was busy with my test.
This is what the examiner put me through:
>When we got to the plane he asked me a whole lot of questions about the plane (Aztec), recent flights I did, engine temps during those flights, which engine is harder to start, which engine would I start 1st etc. Normal enough I guess.
>After the runup he wanted me to request a touch and go first, he didn't like my first approach ( high and steep full flaps) so made me do a go-around at 150 feet.
No big surprise he pulled the throttle on the crirical engine(left, the one with the hydraulic pump)just after I applied full pwr.
Had to pump the gear up manually and climb to 500' when he gave the engine back. Liked the 2nd appraoch and I managed to kiss it on with very sweaty hands.
>At 3500' he wanted to see a Vmc demo which went fine.
Steep turns next, as I rolled out of one we went trough our own wake so he goes "what the hell is that?"That was kinda funny.
>Asked me to crossfeed, right engine fuel from left outboard.
Tried to trick me into slowflight while crossfeeding.
>Slow flight dirty and slowflight clean. Failed the right engine during slowflight with the fuel shut-off at 3500'.
As I was going through the drills I drifted down intentionally at 200fpm and reduced the pwr on the good engine. He wasn't too happy as he expected me to hold altitude.
So I told him there was no rush, no need to burn up the good one, no rush to feather since we where at 3500 AGL and within 10 miles of the airport.
>Then he decides to play the experienced multi-guy who needs a checkout. Told me to test him on his single-engine drills.
So I told him I assumed we would have briefed everything on the ground prior to flight on which he replied "No I felt that wasn't necessary since I'm so experienced" OK
So I pointed at the right engine told him I would fail the RIGHT and slowly pulled the right throttle back. He was (pleasantly?) surprised that I used the throttle iso mixture. Anyway he kept the wings level and tried to feather right away. He couldn't since I had my hand on the quadrant so we started discussing the need for fix or feather as I noticed him slowing down below blueline. Pushed on the yoke with a couple of fingers to remind him when he shouted "who's flying this plane you or me?" So I told him.
So we agree he can sim feather so he pulls the left lever back, only about an inch since I kep my hand there during this whole scene. I'm looking at it thinking something's wrong here, after all his distractions it took a second to realize he was about to pull the wrong one. Almost missed that one
> Now we head back for the airport, he's flying.
We' re doing about 180mph in the descent so I knew he was going to try to get me too fast on downwind. I also noticed that he had been messing with the gear lights as I was scanning for traffic. So when he looked outside (it took two tries) I screwed the bulb back in when he scanning for traffic.
Now we're at 170mph on downwind with a gearspeed of 150mph.
He tried to put the gear down but his hand never made it to the handle. Asked me to slow it down by now we're at the end of downwind with the gear still up. So I used the handpump again to speed the process up a little and told him "3 greens" at which he raised an eyebrow (he's good at doing that, it freaks me out) and looked down. Got him on that one. So he wanted to do the landing and told me to give him flaps as he was turning base. Which I did, so now he starts talking about possible flap assymetry and whether it is even possible with an Aztec.
While we talking about this he turns (fairly) steep for final at 300' and asks for full flap which I refused.
Now he tries to land with partial power so I pulled the throttles back. He taxies in and parkes since there are no brakes on the r/h side. As I'm doing the shut down checks with my head down I noticed the ground move in the corner of my eye and yelled "BRAKES" as we where on a very busy ramp. He liked that one.
I'm now 5lbs lighter but very happy.
Any comments on this ride? Easy or hard?
I personally feel he didn't do everything in the book but he certainly tried to rattle me on everything I did. Up to the very last second even.
Not to mention the fact I was so nervous before he showed up I could not decide between
and
For the careful readers. I did follow some of your advice; mainly not to rush things, keep my eyes on a stick, not to use the mixture if it is not absolutely necessary and oh did I mention that keep my eyes on a stick.
Thanks.

[GT]

Interesting story, and I'll tell you why (I think so). I'm a part-time FI in the U.K. and I'm the only instructor who teaches multi at my school. However, I did my basic multi training (PPL initial, not instructor which I did in the U.K.) at St. Petersburg, FL.

Now, your flight test sounds pretty tough to me, and you should be pleased that you coped so well, but this ties up with my own experience in the U.S.

When I was doing the multi course there it just had to be done perfectly or we did it again (perhaps the instructor was just knocking up multi hours - I don't know). Everything had to be just exactly spot on. Come the test, the oral seemed to go on forever, way past solely multi-engine issues (perhaps the examiner didn't trust a Brit!). The flight test was one of the most rigorous I have ever experienced. I was solely resonsible for R/T and navigation (in and out of CAS). We started late afternoon and went into the night! I don't think multi-engine ratings of any sort are given away in the States, despite what you sometimes hear. Well done, and enjoy it.

Regards, GT.

[FlyingForFun]

I've been quietly reading this thread since the start. Since I'm not (yet) an instructor, and I'm not (yet) multi-rated, I haven't really had much to contribute, but I've enjoyed reading from it and learning from it, and trying to apply what I'm reading to the few hours of dual multi-engine flight that I did a couple of years ago.

What prompted me to post, though, was B2N2's excellent description of his test. All I can say is Wow! Well done, it sounds to me like a bl00dy difficult test, and it also sounds like you handled it bl00dy well. If you can handle everything the examiner threw at you, then I'd be more than happy to have you as my multi-instructor when the time comes! (And I particularly like the bit about screwing the bulbs back in.... )

FFF
-------------

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Big Pistons Forever:

I have not done any multi engine training in the flying school end of aviation for many years and am not all that familiar with some of the methods taught at the ab-initio level.

When you referred to the " required calls " being done what exactly are " required calls " and required by whom?

Who do they call out to and what do they call out, and for what purpose.....do they also do this when alone?

When do they call out and what other actions are they performing as they are calling out?

I am only courious as I am not familiar with this " requirement "

Thanks,

Chuck

[Big Pistons Forever]

Chuck

When instructing often the only way to know what your student is thinking/doing is for them to verbalize it. Therefore I require them to makr the following calls on Takeoff. ( in a typical non turbo light twin )

1. In position: sweep engine and vacuum/electrical guages by pointing with their finger in a quick but complete circuit then call
" Two good Engines "

2. When the throttles reach forward stop , scan MP and RPM guages and call " Full Power "

3. At 70 Kts observe airspeed and MP. RPM, Oil Pressure guages and Call " 70 Knots, two good engines "

4. At rotation speed call " rotate "

5. At blue speed call " blue line , positive rate , gear up "
( note I consider blue line with the gear selected up as the decision speed as IMO it is unsafe to attempt to continue the takeoff with the airspeed below blueline close to the ground ).

Obviously these calls would not be verbalized in the context of single pilot commercial operations but I believe they are the best way to conduct training as they keep me in the loop and pedagogical theory has proven verbalizing actions helps students learn. Anyway to answer your questions, they are "required" because I am the PIC

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Big Pistons Forever:

Thanks for your answer, I now understand the "required" part.


I havent instructed on the light ones since I sold my flying school many years ago, did you fly my Geronimo that Jack leased for a while?

Chuck

[Dude~]

Hmmm, interesting topic. I did my initial twin training in Bisbane, Oz. My instructor frequently pulled the mixture back to create failures, including one on take off (fully brifed though) and one on downwind for our final landing when I feathered the right engine on the Duchess for real. Great fun and experience. My instructor was highly experienced ex DC3 pilot who had being flying around Northern Territory since I was a tot.

I never realised it was other than common practice elsewhere.

I assume that one advantage was that when he pulled a mixture back, he could easily cover it from my sight with a clipboard so I was forced to work out the dead engine without cheating. As soon as I had done the 'all the levers forward' movement, he would set zero thrust on the dead engine, and then I carried on.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Dude:

Have you ever noticed that you can just ignore where the levers are and just identify which way the aeroplane has yawed, then maybe that phenonen will give you a clue to which engine failed?

Flamboyant use of mixtures, fuel shutoff levers and ignition switches are just asking for trouble, when reducing a throttle will give you a loss of power for the purpose of training.

I recall almost crashing many years ago on a check ride in a DC3. There were two of us being checked and I was in the jump seat for the first take off. The Chief pilot whipped the right engine mixture to idle cut off just as we were airborne with insufficient runway ahead to land and the gear still in transit.

The mixture lever broke right off the pedestal and we damn near lost a perfectly servicable airplane, thankfully we were light and the thing flew.

Chuck

[Tinstaafl]

Chuck,

You can't use yaw in a C336/337. You have to use the knobs & dials to determine the failure. I reckon it's more difficult in one of these than in a 'conventional' twin. Also, what about multi's with more than one engine on each wing? Surely you're not advocating yaw alone be used to determine failure? (yes, there's nearly always a second pilot & probably an FE to do the determining....)


Re the mixture control breaking:

That the mixture lever happened to fail doesn't make this example supportive of your argument. There is the same outcome regardless of what device is used to 'fail' the engine. An idling engine is just as failed if the throttle lever breaks off & you can no longer restore useable power.

There is no single point failure protection built in to any of these classes of engine's controls, except perhaps single engine CSUs that default to max RPM (thereby enabling max power to still be available) if the governer gubbins go tits up. I'm ignoring the C208's manual FCU since this engine installation WAS designed to have some amount of backup.

I could argue a **possible** workaround in a few Piper twins that use the pressure x-feed logic eg Aztecs, Chieftans etc. The workaround would be to use the fuel selector to provide the 'failure'. This MIGHT have a backup in case the fuel selector handle broke, by selecting the x-feed switch to 'ON' - bypassing that engine's fuel selector - & allowing fuel to be fed from the other engine's supply.

I'm presuming in the above that OFF is bypassed by x-feed select. Not sure if this is the case anyway. All the manuals I've seen for these types require/presume x-feed is OFF when they mention switching the fuel supply off but none seem to say what would happen with x-feed on. I don't have any fuel schematics to view to work it out myself.


Just a thought...

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Tinstaafl :

O.K.

I was negligent in my post when I used the broken mixture example and forgot to clearly tie that event into the cowboy, flamboyant agressive manner in which the check pilot performed the mixture cut off.

It was that idiot thoughtless agressive use of the mixture control that was in all likelyhood partly responsible for the lever breaking.

Also the airplane was a DC3... what do you think about sudden power reductions in a large radial engine?

The 337 is not used for multi engine training....it is two engine center line thrust training.

Do they let you fly any multi engine down there with a 337 endorsement?

As to more than one engine on each wing that is another subject and not really part of this discussion...oh you could have added BMEP as a quick reference with the four engine machines.

Anyhow to each his own, we are all free to use our airplanes in any manner we want to.

I'll stick with my methods, they have served me well over the years.


Just one more comment before some ace jumps into this and starts the " You have to make it realistic " argument. Here is a question for that mindset...do you set your engine on fire so the student experiences what the the real thing looks like, when you are teaching the engine fire proceedures?

Chuck

[hoey5o]

Big Pistons Forever,

Interested by your "required" calls section.
You state you regard blue line as your decision speed. Decision to do what ? I am surprised no one has mentioned the option of abandoning the climb out ( on one ) and landing ahead.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Decision speed in the context of a takeoff should only mean one thing. It is the point in the takeoff where you switch from automatically rejecting the takeoff by closing the throttles to carrying out the engine failure drills anf continuing the flight , in the event of an engine failure. If the airplane has a positive rate of climb , is at blueline, and the landing gear is retracting than it will fly away, therefore that is my light twin V1.
I think it is important to note transport category methodology is once you pass V1 you go. There is no big mental debate about wether there is sufficent runway ahead when the engine fails, You go EVERYTIME. Granted the difference is transport aircraft are still on the ground at V1 while the light twin will allready be in the air but the concept is the same. There is ample evidence that under the stress of a late takeoff engine failure a preprogrammed response that does not require intellectualizing the situation and then deciding on a course of action is the safest way to go in virtually all circumstances. In the context of this discussion why should we expect a low houred light twin student to make decisions not required of even a gazillion hour 747 captain. BTW I teach my students to keep their hands on the throttle untill blue line is reached, they then use the throttle hand to select gear up and then return to the throttle quandrant and firmly grasp both prop levers. The drill is really simple. If your hand is on throttles and you get that sickening lurch sideways , close the throttles, if your hands are on the prop levers feather and fly.

[ROB-x38]

Big Pistons Forever:

Thanks for sharing your takeoff calls. I've been taught a similar method but not as detailed. Next time i'm lined up i'm gonna use your ideas.

Cheers

[B2N2]

Any other ideas out there?
Horror stories?
C'mon most of you will have flown multi!
In the mixture debate...I was under the impression that it's quite ok to do mixture cuts on the runway if you're still below 1/2 Vmc.
Mixture cuts>3000' shouldn't really be a problem either.
Just not between Vmc and 3000'.
Thats what most of the instructors I know do anyway.
Mixture cut has a more agressive effect that's for sure...sounds different also

[Chuck Ellsworth]

"Mixture cut has an more agressive effect thats for sure. "

That is precisely why I do not use the mixture to simulate a power failure.......

Engines under high power do not like agressive changes in inertia, it induces reverse loads that can result in a real failure.

Teaching control of a multi engine aircraft is not a game in which he who makes the most agressive moves wins.

Also rote learned actions are not always the best way to stay alive......especially rote learned and quickly performed in a critical situation

Here is an example:

I was taking off in a fully loaded waterbomber with a load of long term retardent on a narrow gravel runway in northern Alberta, the strip was a forestry strip surrounded by trees. There was a wicked 45 degree x/wind.

Just prior to VR the left hand throttle broke off , I had two choices continue the take off and get into the air with an uncontrollabel engine at full power or reject the take off.....

What would you guys have done...and what vital actions would you have performed?

Would the rote learned vital actions have been the proper way to handle this situation...???

Chuck

[ROB-x38]

What did you do? How can you abort when you cant retard the throttle?

Cut the fuel

[Chuck Ellsworth]

OK :

First a broken throttle is not an engine failure, but do we want to get airborne in a very heavy air tanker with one engine ( P&W R1830 ) at full rated power and risk exceeding the max full power time limit? Furthermore suppose for some reason there is a problem dropping the long term retardent?And do I want to wrestle this thing back on to a narrow runway on one engine with the serious x/wind?

Anyhow I rejected the takeoff and at the same time dropped the load.

Getting back to rote learned proceedures, if I had reacted in the normal manner and pulled the power by closing the remaining throttle I would have become the biggest most powerful tree cutter in the province.

The actions I took were because the mixtures were above and behind me and I was unable to use the intercom to get the first officer to pull the mixture levers down to ICO due to the horrendous noise these things make under full power I reached down and pulled the ignition kill switch....instant both engines off solution. And of course at the same instant with my other hand I pushed the drop button to get rid of the nine thousand pounds of retardent in the tank. ( The province didn't even pay me for painting the gravel strip bright red. )

Soooo as all this happened just as we were coming up on VR and the time frame to recognize the danger, make the decision and choose the safest method to stop both engines at once was very, very limited........

The secret is do not perform rote learned proceedures before you pause and think it out.

That is if you wish to stay alive.

Chuck