What are the prospects if?
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What are the prospects if?
At the moment I am training towards my CPL via the modular scheme with the aim of becoming an instructor.
I have sufficient money to get a CPL and complete an instructor's course with a little left over.
I am keen to make the most of this as I am sure I would enjoy instructing, but I have the following questions (very open ones mind you!).
I cannot afford to give up the day job so any instructing would need to be on the side. How many hours could I realistically expect to achieve in terms of teaching over the course of a year?
I am aware that unpaid instructors are frowned upon, but are part-time instructors also frowned upon? (I cannot afford a 60% drop in salary, although I wish I could).
What would I need to do to add further strings to my bow eg. multi engine instruction/IMC rating instruction?
Many thanks in advance
Obs cop
I have sufficient money to get a CPL and complete an instructor's course with a little left over.
I am keen to make the most of this as I am sure I would enjoy instructing, but I have the following questions (very open ones mind you!).
I cannot afford to give up the day job so any instructing would need to be on the side. How many hours could I realistically expect to achieve in terms of teaching over the course of a year?
I am aware that unpaid instructors are frowned upon, but are part-time instructors also frowned upon? (I cannot afford a 60% drop in salary, although I wish I could).
What would I need to do to add further strings to my bow eg. multi engine instruction/IMC rating instruction?
Many thanks in advance
Obs cop
Personally I welcome part-time instructors as they're unlikely to be 'hours-building wannabees' - they're far more likely to be keen to instruct because they enjoy the work.
Are you a police observer as your nom-de-PPRuNe would indicate? If so, someone with your knowledge of airmanship and safety sense would be a very useful part-time instructor. Good luck!
Are you a police observer as your nom-de-PPRuNe would indicate? If so, someone with your knowledge of airmanship and safety sense would be a very useful part-time instructor. Good luck!
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Part Time instructors form the backbone of many flying clubs. The main thing that the club expects is reliability. Once you have some students they will need to fly regularly and you will need to be available for them. If you have a good ops person in the club they will find students whose schedule can match yours.
If you are working one day a week then about 150hrs/yr is possible. Don't worry about the hours though, you don't want to lower yourself to the 'hours building' motivation.
Leave the advanced instruction alone, at low instructional time no one will let you teach ME anyway. Your first objective after qualification is to get the FI(R) restrictions removed. Otherwise you will need to be supervised and that makes you less valuable to the club.
Everything you need to know is here
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Lasors_Section_H.pdf
Good Luck
RF
If you are working one day a week then about 150hrs/yr is possible. Don't worry about the hours though, you don't want to lower yourself to the 'hours building' motivation.
Leave the advanced instruction alone, at low instructional time no one will let you teach ME anyway. Your first objective after qualification is to get the FI(R) restrictions removed. Otherwise you will need to be supervised and that makes you less valuable to the club.
Everything you need to know is here
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Lasors_Section_H.pdf
Good Luck
RF
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Baldwim are trying to wind people up?
Unpaid staff certainly benefit flying school owners bottom line, but that's about it. Luckily there are few unpaid people around anymore(at least in my experience).
What makes you feel that someone who gets paid would be any less dedicated? Every instructor I've had the pleasure of teaching alongside has given as good a service as possible.
Most (PPL) instructors are so badly paid that they do it for the experience and the enjoyment. I treated it as an apprenticeship to start with and it has served me very well. I certainly don't think of instructing in an altruistic sense. It is a job, sometimes very difficult and occasionally frightening and as such all instructors should be renumerated. I know most students do it for fun, and just want to be in the air, but when you do it every day come rain or shine then you treat it in a very different way. Of couse it's a great job, but would I go back to full time? No way..
Good luck obs cop, you'll learn loads and hopefully have a brilliant time doing it. Get yourself unrestricted first and then think about add ons. A multi engine FI rating doesn't come into use that often at most schools though it may be useful to get it relatively early just because of the pre-entry requirements. I'm assuming you'll be doing an I/R on a twin.
Unpaid staff certainly benefit flying school owners bottom line, but that's about it. Luckily there are few unpaid people around anymore(at least in my experience).
What makes you feel that someone who gets paid would be any less dedicated? Every instructor I've had the pleasure of teaching alongside has given as good a service as possible.
Most (PPL) instructors are so badly paid that they do it for the experience and the enjoyment. I treated it as an apprenticeship to start with and it has served me very well. I certainly don't think of instructing in an altruistic sense. It is a job, sometimes very difficult and occasionally frightening and as such all instructors should be renumerated. I know most students do it for fun, and just want to be in the air, but when you do it every day come rain or shine then you treat it in a very different way. Of couse it's a great job, but would I go back to full time? No way..
Good luck obs cop, you'll learn loads and hopefully have a brilliant time doing it. Get yourself unrestricted first and then think about add ons. A multi engine FI rating doesn't come into use that often at most schools though it may be useful to get it relatively early just because of the pre-entry requirements. I'm assuming you'll be doing an I/R on a twin.
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Say Again.. No I did not intend to wind anyone up!
I certianly did not mean to infer that paid instructors are not dedicated at all. I have flown with many and found most to be very good. And I agree with most of what you say about instructors and their job. However, I find most are there for the experience rather than the enjoyment - might just be the few I have flown with recently though. Regardless I certainly think instructors do a fantastic job for the pay and general conditions.
I just dont see the problem with someone volunteering there services for free thats all. If it helps the club/school that's great. Are the schools there to provide jobs for instructors or to provide training for students?
I certianly did not mean to infer that paid instructors are not dedicated at all. I have flown with many and found most to be very good. And I agree with most of what you say about instructors and their job. However, I find most are there for the experience rather than the enjoyment - might just be the few I have flown with recently though. Regardless I certainly think instructors do a fantastic job for the pay and general conditions.
I just dont see the problem with someone volunteering there services for free thats all. If it helps the club/school that's great. Are the schools there to provide jobs for instructors or to provide training for students?
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Both.
Schools are there to make money. They do it by teaching people to fly, therefore you have to have instructors. If I walked into a bank and offered to work for free and deprive somebody, who had spent upwards of £25K of their own money on their training, a chance to recoup some of their investment, just because I think the job is fun I'm not likely to be popular am I.
The fact that most people need to spend vast quantities of cash to become any sort of pilot be it PPL, Instructor, Airline etc.. shows a great amount of determination and an enormous amount of dedication.(Roy Castle style)
The fact that most instructors will vanish off to the airlines at a moments notice is mainly due to the pay and not the job. There are very few career instructors simply because not many can afford to be. I would have loved to have been able to stay as an instructor for a few years, but I simply couldn't justify it full-time. We make jokes about putting fuel in the car and food in your mouth, but it's not far from the truth during the winter.
I am fortunate enough that now I teach CPL, I/R, IMC etc. and I could make a living out of it if I wished, but the expense occured up to this point means that debts have to be paid.
As a PPL student it is very easy to see the industry in a rosy way. It is all sweetness and light, exciting and new. The reality is that it is an industry like any other. It has good bits and bad. Professional pilots do it for the love of flying, if anyone wants to learn for the glamour
I would gently steer them away. To me it's the best job in the world and the positives far outweigh the negatives, but my friends and family sometimes cannot believe what I (all of us) have to go/gone through to get here.
I hope you don't take this as offensive, but I feel that the thought behind your comments are a bit naive, but as I don't know you personally or your background it is very hard to see where you are coming from.
Schools are there to make money. They do it by teaching people to fly, therefore you have to have instructors. If I walked into a bank and offered to work for free and deprive somebody, who had spent upwards of £25K of their own money on their training, a chance to recoup some of their investment, just because I think the job is fun I'm not likely to be popular am I.
The fact that most people need to spend vast quantities of cash to become any sort of pilot be it PPL, Instructor, Airline etc.. shows a great amount of determination and an enormous amount of dedication.(Roy Castle style)
The fact that most instructors will vanish off to the airlines at a moments notice is mainly due to the pay and not the job. There are very few career instructors simply because not many can afford to be. I would have loved to have been able to stay as an instructor for a few years, but I simply couldn't justify it full-time. We make jokes about putting fuel in the car and food in your mouth, but it's not far from the truth during the winter.
I am fortunate enough that now I teach CPL, I/R, IMC etc. and I could make a living out of it if I wished, but the expense occured up to this point means that debts have to be paid.
As a PPL student it is very easy to see the industry in a rosy way. It is all sweetness and light, exciting and new. The reality is that it is an industry like any other. It has good bits and bad. Professional pilots do it for the love of flying, if anyone wants to learn for the glamour
I would gently steer them away. To me it's the best job in the world and the positives far outweigh the negatives, but my friends and family sometimes cannot believe what I (all of us) have to go/gone through to get here.I hope you don't take this as offensive, but I feel that the thought behind your comments are a bit naive, but as I don't know you personally or your background it is very hard to see where you are coming from.
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Point taken! No problem, I havent taken offensive.
And yes you are right, I may be a little naive in that I have only seen this from a ppl pilots point of view. It wasn't until I started reading some posts on here that I realized what the pay situation was!
I have been flying for 10 years and the quality of instruction over that time has generally been excellent. Just recently however, I have had a couple of very bored instructors who have openly admitted that they hate sitting in a PA28 all day long. I was not very impressed as I was paying £160/hr for the privilege.
I am one of a few around who would love to instruct but cannot obtain a class 1 medical and therfore cannot get paid for it. I am however willing to get an instructor rating and CPL ground exams and volunteer my services. I think I would be very good at it. I teach for a living and love flying.
It appears this may be more difficult to acheive than I had originally thought!
And yes you are right, I may be a little naive in that I have only seen this from a ppl pilots point of view. It wasn't until I started reading some posts on here that I realized what the pay situation was!
I have been flying for 10 years and the quality of instruction over that time has generally been excellent. Just recently however, I have had a couple of very bored instructors who have openly admitted that they hate sitting in a PA28 all day long. I was not very impressed as I was paying £160/hr for the privilege.
I am one of a few around who would love to instruct but cannot obtain a class 1 medical and therfore cannot get paid for it. I am however willing to get an instructor rating and CPL ground exams and volunteer my services. I think I would be very good at it. I teach for a living and love flying.
It appears this may be more difficult to acheive than I had originally thought!
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Baldwim, anyone who admits to a student who's paying as much as you are that they are bored. is to put it bluntly an idiot. You just don't say it, even if you think it.
Don't let my comments put you off if you wish to instruct. I'm just letting you know my opinion. I think you have a slightly different case for wanting to instruct and I'm sure you would be a good instructor.
The only problem is that at the moment you'd have to do all the CPL written exams, which is a pain in the a**e. It has stopped virtually all PPL's I know who have thought about instructing from going on with it, but if you are willing to go through all the hoops I may have a job for you!
That would really be dedication and I for one am willing to say that anyone who is prepared to go through all of that deserves to be able to instruct. It's just a shame about the class 1 otherwise I'd say do the CPL test and get the full licence.
If you don't mind me asking what is the problem? I know a few people who fell foul of the class 1 of old, but now are able to get one.
Don't let my comments put you off if you wish to instruct. I'm just letting you know my opinion. I think you have a slightly different case for wanting to instruct and I'm sure you would be a good instructor.
The only problem is that at the moment you'd have to do all the CPL written exams, which is a pain in the a**e. It has stopped virtually all PPL's I know who have thought about instructing from going on with it, but if you are willing to go through all the hoops I may have a job for you!
That would really be dedication and I for one am willing to say that anyone who is prepared to go through all of that deserves to be able to instruct. It's just a shame about the class 1 otherwise I'd say do the CPL test and get the full licence.
If you don't mind me asking what is the problem? I know a few people who fell foul of the class 1 of old, but now are able to get one.
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Thanks all for the input, most heartening to get such positive comments.
Beagle, my handle eludes to the fact that I am an Ex-fleet Air Arm observer (Albeit for a short time!) and am currently a police officer. I would very much like to be a police observer but fear jobs on the unit are like rocking horse poop.
The only stumbling block I may have is that police are not allowed second jobs without a chief constable's permission. I have a lot of grovelling to do and may need to look at remuneration packages rather than outright pay. Don't worry though, I prefer not to give my services without some recompense!
Many thanks
Obs cop
Beagle, my handle eludes to the fact that I am an Ex-fleet Air Arm observer (Albeit for a short time!) and am currently a police officer. I would very much like to be a police observer but fear jobs on the unit are like rocking horse poop.
The only stumbling block I may have is that police are not allowed second jobs without a chief constable's permission. I have a lot of grovelling to do and may need to look at remuneration packages rather than outright pay. Don't worry though, I prefer not to give my services without some recompense!
Many thanks
Obs cop
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Say again.., thanks for your positive comments.
Obs Cop.. sorry, I didnt mean to hijack your question, just responding to your comment on unpaid instructors. Good luck with the CPL and instructor rating.
Say again..
I agree he must have been an idiot to say that. It was my first flight after a 5 year break from flying and was clearly very annoyed that he wasn't with an airline yet after one year from getting his CPL/IR. These people are out there, but are in the minority.
The class 1 problem is eyesight like thousand of others I imagine. Can't get passed the initial -5 limit but am well within the renewal limit of -8.
I also agree, getting the full CPL would be ideal but seems blocked.
I must admit , I haven't investigated what the CPL ground entails, or more importantly costs! Cost will be a major factor.
Maybe one day we will have PPL instructors again like they all were not so long ago when I was learning. All it is going to need is for the airline industry to pick up again big-time and all the instructors will dissappear. I cannot beleive there can be many out there to replace them who would really invest thousands of pounds after a PPL to obtain IMC/CPL/FI ratings to instruct for say £10/hour.
Well, it may well happen with me. I certainly wouldnt want to be frowned upon every time I was working. I was just hoping there would have been the possibility of working as an ordinary instructor for a school, for maybe a day or two a week, but just not on the payrole (maybe free lunch!). The students would be charged the same rate and neednt know. Maybe I could get paid for ground instruction?
Obs Cop.. sorry, I didnt mean to hijack your question, just responding to your comment on unpaid instructors. Good luck with the CPL and instructor rating.
Say again..
I agree he must have been an idiot to say that. It was my first flight after a 5 year break from flying and was clearly very annoyed that he wasn't with an airline yet after one year from getting his CPL/IR. These people are out there, but are in the minority.
The class 1 problem is eyesight like thousand of others I imagine. Can't get passed the initial -5 limit but am well within the renewal limit of -8.
I also agree, getting the full CPL would be ideal but seems blocked.
I must admit , I haven't investigated what the CPL ground entails, or more importantly costs! Cost will be a major factor.
Maybe one day we will have PPL instructors again like they all were not so long ago when I was learning. All it is going to need is for the airline industry to pick up again big-time and all the instructors will dissappear. I cannot beleive there can be many out there to replace them who would really invest thousands of pounds after a PPL to obtain IMC/CPL/FI ratings to instruct for say £10/hour.
Well, it may well happen with me. I certainly wouldnt want to be frowned upon every time I was working. I was just hoping there would have been the possibility of working as an ordinary instructor for a school, for maybe a day or two a week, but just not on the payrole (maybe free lunch!). The students would be charged the same rate and neednt know. Maybe I could get paid for ground instruction?
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Speak to CAA med examiner.
A mate of mine couldn't get an initial Class 1 so they suggested he could get it if he already had a foriegn licence. Off he went and got a Canadian CPL, no he's back in the UK doing his ATPL exams.
It can be done you just need to find a 'back door'
Hope this is of some help
A mate of mine couldn't get an initial Class 1 so they suggested he could get it if he already had a foriegn licence. Off he went and got a Canadian CPL, no he's back in the UK doing his ATPL exams.
It can be done you just need to find a 'back door'
Hope this is of some help
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Thanks The Dream,.
Yes it is of some help. I have heard that if you get an FAA or canadian CPL/Class1 then you can obtain a JAR one on the basis of this and only go through a class 1 renewal rather than the nitial (plus do the CPL exams).
It does seem to be a valid 'back door', but rather an expensive and convoluted one for someone like myselef who just wants to do the odd bit of part-time ppl instructing.
I will investigate this further though.
Yes it is of some help. I have heard that if you get an FAA or canadian CPL/Class1 then you can obtain a JAR one on the basis of this and only go through a class 1 renewal rather than the nitial (plus do the CPL exams).
It does seem to be a valid 'back door', but rather an expensive and convoluted one for someone like myselef who just wants to do the odd bit of part-time ppl instructing.
I will investigate this further though.
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CPL ground exams are comparitively cheap financially compared to flying hours, but in terms of time and effort they are a totally different matter. You can pick up a distance learning course for around £2k and it will take at least 6-8 months of dedicated study to prepare.
A lot of work for not an enormous amount of return.
I think the rules are now such as to make it so difficult and costly that only CPL's/ATPL's will be FI's. A very short sighted decision in my view. Maybe it was done to try and force up the wages of FI's? I don't know but eventually it may work.
Helicopter instructors whether CPL or PPL have always been paid and this is reflected in the much better wages they recieve (typically £30/hr+) but the cost per/hr of an R22 is nearly double that of a C152, so you get less people flying them.
It is a shame that the old BCPL route has disappeared. I know many fine instructors who still teach on a BCPL and the crucial difference is that they get paid the same as everybody else.
I don't think there will ever become a time when we have unpaid PPL instructors again, but if there does become a shortage of FI's some other solution will have to be found, don't hold your breath though!
A good suggestion from TheDream, I'm sure you would be able to get an FAA medical, and you never know Cash And Aggro may one day adopt the ICAO rule of "if your eyesight can be corrected that's good enough for me!"
I can empathise with your position as I just about scraped my initial Class 1 on eyesight. Had me sweating for a bit I'll tell you!!
Apologies to obs cop for slightly(!) hijacking your thread.
Obs from my experience part-timers don't get treated any differently by other instructors.
A lot of work for not an enormous amount of return.
I think the rules are now such as to make it so difficult and costly that only CPL's/ATPL's will be FI's. A very short sighted decision in my view. Maybe it was done to try and force up the wages of FI's? I don't know but eventually it may work.
Helicopter instructors whether CPL or PPL have always been paid and this is reflected in the much better wages they recieve (typically £30/hr+) but the cost per/hr of an R22 is nearly double that of a C152, so you get less people flying them.
It is a shame that the old BCPL route has disappeared. I know many fine instructors who still teach on a BCPL and the crucial difference is that they get paid the same as everybody else.
I don't think there will ever become a time when we have unpaid PPL instructors again, but if there does become a shortage of FI's some other solution will have to be found, don't hold your breath though!
A good suggestion from TheDream, I'm sure you would be able to get an FAA medical, and you never know Cash And Aggro may one day adopt the ICAO rule of "if your eyesight can be corrected that's good enough for me!"
I can empathise with your position as I just about scraped my initial Class 1 on eyesight. Had me sweating for a bit I'll tell you!!
Apologies to obs cop for slightly(!) hijacking your thread.
Obs from my experience part-timers don't get treated any differently by other instructors.
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No probs for all those who have digressed mildly.
As an aspiring instructor, it just whets my appetite more.
The more I find out about instructing, the more appealing it becomes. I just need to get my CPL exams out of the way now!!
Before starting and FI's course, do you need anything such as a pre-FI's course or anything concerning suitability to instruct?
Obs cop
As an aspiring instructor, it just whets my appetite more.
The more I find out about instructing, the more appealing it becomes. I just need to get my CPL exams out of the way now!!
Before starting and FI's course, do you need anything such as a pre-FI's course or anything concerning suitability to instruct?
Obs cop
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There is a pre-course 'test' and a check that you have the hours needed etc.
This test is not particularily taxing, but of course you still need to get through it! It consists of general handling etc. just like a PPL test really.
This test is not particularily taxing, but of course you still need to get through it! It consists of general handling etc. just like a PPL test really.
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SAS,
Thanks,
You wouldn't happen to know if there are any limitaions as to when the pre-course test must be done? ie. must have underatken test within x months of the start of the course.
Thanks
Obs cop
Thanks,
You wouldn't happen to know if there are any limitaions as to when the pre-course test must be done? ie. must have underatken test within x months of the start of the course.
Thanks
Obs cop
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The class 1 problem is eyesight like thousand of others I imagine. Can't get passed the initial -5 limit but am well within the renewal limit of -8.
CAA medical website
Differences between initial and subsequent Eye examinations
In certain tests of eye function there is a difference between the (higher) initial standards and the (lower) renewal or revalidation standards. Class 1 applicants who fail to meet the initial visual examination standards, but who reach the renewal/revalidation standards, should contact the UK CAA Medical Division to discuss their options.
Baldwim
Have you spoken to the CAA about your situation?
The class 1 problem is eyesight like thousand of others I imagine. Can't get passed the initial -5 limit but am well within the renewal limit of -8.
CAA medical website
Differences between initial and subsequent Eye examinations
In certain tests of eye function there is a difference between the (higher) initial standards and the (lower) renewal or revalidation standards. Class 1 applicants who fail to meet the initial visual examination standards, but who reach the renewal/revalidation standards, should contact the UK CAA Medical Division to discuss their options.
Baldwim
Have you spoken to the CAA about your situation?