G550 Single engine take off
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G550 Single engine take off
NOT EFTO but a secured right engine, and a full take off run and take off.
I have seen it demonstrated in the sim, and the nose wheel did not deviate fron the CL.
Was it ever "demonstrated" under flight test.
Has any one done it for real.
It is nice to know, if in the real world one needs to go, then one goes....
Interesting to know the "improvement" in fuel burn, etc, etc.
HFR
I have seen it demonstrated in the sim, and the nose wheel did not deviate fron the CL.
Was it ever "demonstrated" under flight test.
Has any one done it for real.
It is nice to know, if in the real world one needs to go, then one goes....
Interesting to know the "improvement" in fuel burn, etc, etc.
HFR
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I do not believe reading the above.
Am I dreamimg, or am I too drunk...?
Or is it my alzheimer starting again...?
xxx
Happy contrails and rolling on the floor
How about moving this to Jet Blast -
Am I dreamimg, or am I too drunk...?
Or is it my alzheimer starting again...?
xxx
Happy contrails and rolling on the floor
How about moving this to Jet Blast -
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My simple advice, dont even think about it.
Next time you are in the sim, you try and see the results for yourself.
It might help if you were to brush up on the basics of aerodymic. In prticular see what are the definitons of VMCG and VMCA.
A one engine out T/O on a 4 enigne airplane is possible. Even then the pilots have to be specially trained for the task and lots of restrictions apply.
Be safe.
Next time you are in the sim, you try and see the results for yourself.
It might help if you were to brush up on the basics of aerodymic. In prticular see what are the definitons of VMCG and VMCA.
A one engine out T/O on a 4 enigne airplane is possible. Even then the pilots have to be specially trained for the task and lots of restrictions apply.
Be safe.
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Many years ago an ex colleage of mine, (ex RAF fighter jock, (different breed)), told me how it was a boys challenge in the force to get airbourne single engine in a Meteor! "Many tried, all died!"
'Not sure how much truth there was in the story but it was enough for me to understand just one of a twinjet's limitations!
'Not sure how much truth there was in the story but it was enough for me to understand just one of a twinjet's limitations!
I did a single engine take off in a B767-300 simulator years ago and it worked quite well but there's no way I'd try it in a real aeroplane unless I was being shot at.
Regards,
BH.
Regards,
BH.
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Done it 3 times in sim
in G550 sim, and each time perfectly controlled, and on the centre line, only used perhaps 10% more runway.
Please do knock it till you have tried it.
BH thats exaxtly what he was asking, as well as has anit actually been done.
When you do your EFTO in the sim, below V1, ignore SOP and continue, and provided you delay your Rotate, keep the aircraft on the centre line, the EFTO in the air is perefectly controllable.
A sim trick that I suggest to trainees, who are aprehensive, and try to rotate very early, and very agressive.
glf
Please do knock it till you have tried it.
BH thats exaxtly what he was asking, as well as has anit actually been done.
When you do your EFTO in the sim, below V1, ignore SOP and continue, and provided you delay your Rotate, keep the aircraft on the centre line, the EFTO in the air is perefectly controllable.
A sim trick that I suggest to trainees, who are aprehensive, and try to rotate very early, and very agressive.
glf
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Agreed
When well briefed, this is an 'illuminating' exercise to do in the sim - and very nicely reinforces the reasons to delay rotation until under directional control.
Of course you wouldn't try it in the real aircraft.....
Of course you wouldn't try it in the real aircraft.....
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Sims are great but...
Here's my two cents...
The sim gets most of it's aero modelling data from flight test, specifically it gets it's data for manoeuvers that are carried out inside the envelope. When you start going outside the established boudaries the sim is extrapolating. So to say you've seen something demonstrated in the sim and the nose wheel never deviated from the centerline is fine, but how far was the model extrapolating in that scenario? I've looped and rolled the Challenger sim, strangely enough beyond +30 degrees of pitch it behaves remarkably similar to a Cessna 150 aerobat - why, because beyond 30 degrees you're outside of the realm of flight test collected data.
The sim gets most of it's aero modelling data from flight test, specifically it gets it's data for manoeuvers that are carried out inside the envelope. When you start going outside the established boudaries the sim is extrapolating. So to say you've seen something demonstrated in the sim and the nose wheel never deviated from the centerline is fine, but how far was the model extrapolating in that scenario? I've looped and rolled the Challenger sim, strangely enough beyond +30 degrees of pitch it behaves remarkably similar to a Cessna 150 aerobat - why, because beyond 30 degrees you're outside of the realm of flight test collected data.
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I think we're also getting into that grey area between "should" and "can."
Airplanes "can" (i.e. are physically capable) of significantly more than their performance limits would indicate. That margin is there to allow for things to go wrong (e.g. NWS failing at just the wrong moment). But when in the fantasy world of the sim, those grey spaces can be explored.
Should they be? Dunno. At one level there is a chance to learn something. On the other hand, it could lead to false confidence.
I was just reading about Pinnacle 3701 this morning. That's an adventure that may well have simulated just fine but when the complexities of real world engines and thermal expansion got into it, the result was tragedy. Or Darwin Award, you choose.
As for me, I'd love the chance to sit in a sim and push the aircraft into those non-SOP places just to know.
Airplanes "can" (i.e. are physically capable) of significantly more than their performance limits would indicate. That margin is there to allow for things to go wrong (e.g. NWS failing at just the wrong moment). But when in the fantasy world of the sim, those grey spaces can be explored.
Should they be? Dunno. At one level there is a chance to learn something. On the other hand, it could lead to false confidence.
I was just reading about Pinnacle 3701 this morning. That's an adventure that may well have simulated just fine but when the complexities of real world engines and thermal expansion got into it, the result was tragedy. Or Darwin Award, you choose.
As for me, I'd love the chance to sit in a sim and push the aircraft into those non-SOP places just to know.
I cannot find the page reference, but I recall D.P. Davies in the standard reference, "Handling the Big Jets", called that a "circus trick". Indeed, it is just that! BelArgUSA, a few too many caipirinhas in late summer Florionopolis?
GF
GF
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in Cit 2 sim
It was possible int he Citation 2 sim, but with some clever use of power/accelerate/retard/etc, etc.
So the G550 was easier.
Is there any proof of the data points actually used.?
is there any SAV guys who have more valuable input.?
glf
So the G550 was easier.
Is there any proof of the data points actually used.?
is there any SAV guys who have more valuable input.?
glf
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Just-nick
Sorry but you still won't "know" anything. The results you get going outside of the simulation limits may well have no connection to what would really happen. The models may extrapolate in a linear direction but the aircraft response could be very non-linear, or reverse direction. An aircraft is required to be directionally stable at Mmo but it is acceptable to be mildly directionally unstable at higher speeds. I suspect this is not modeled in the simulator so if you were to go and do rudder inputs above Mmo you may well "know" an incorrect result.
Sorry but you still won't "know" anything. The results you get going outside of the simulation limits may well have no connection to what would really happen. The models may extrapolate in a linear direction but the aircraft response could be very non-linear, or reverse direction. An aircraft is required to be directionally stable at Mmo but it is acceptable to be mildly directionally unstable at higher speeds. I suspect this is not modeled in the simulator so if you were to go and do rudder inputs above Mmo you may well "know" an incorrect result.
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There is a famous accident report the NTSB did a few years back on a small bizjet that attempted to get airborne with only one engine going. They were going to try a starter assisted start on the other once airborne. Makes amusing reading and I'll try to find the link.
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True enough, Hoser90B. I suppose I was thinking of "know" in a casual and non-literal sense. That sort of extrapolation into the unknowns was exactly what I was getting at when talking about Pinnacle 3701. They ended up in a bad situation made worse by the "core lock" that the engines suffered -- something that the sim probably wouldn't have modeled.
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Tried and failed a few times to get a RAAF Gooney Bird off on one. This was after having established that the equivalent of a feathered prop when airborne was roughly 15 inches of boost at 2000 rpm.
Started each attempt with one idling as above and almost down wind. Some reasonable wind was mandatory. Full rudder then allowed for a slow increase in power on the 'live' engine whilst allowing a gradual turn into wind. All of this on the grass. Failures followed as one commenced to sense that a wind speed of over 30 kts was essential.
Finally made it airborne with about 35 Kts of wind much to the relief of Bil Simmonds in the right seat and the SATCO.
Then there was the time I started a take off in a Beverley with an outer electric prop in reverse due to a broken slip ring brush housing.. Didn't take long to abort.
Windmill taxi starts of an engine on early model Hercules C-130s were an interesting challenge.
Started each attempt with one idling as above and almost down wind. Some reasonable wind was mandatory. Full rudder then allowed for a slow increase in power on the 'live' engine whilst allowing a gradual turn into wind. All of this on the grass. Failures followed as one commenced to sense that a wind speed of over 30 kts was essential.
Finally made it airborne with about 35 Kts of wind much to the relief of Bil Simmonds in the right seat and the SATCO.
Then there was the time I started a take off in a Beverley with an outer electric prop in reverse due to a broken slip ring brush housing.. Didn't take long to abort.
Windmill taxi starts of an engine on early model Hercules C-130s were an interesting challenge.
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As long as you observe your VMCG and V1 why should it not work?
Most tricycle-gear aircraft will have enough low speed control to stay on the runway until the rudder begins to bite - you may need to feather the power in - but the only real hazard, that aside, is running out of tarmac, and in a modern high powered machine I doubt that would happen on any but shorter runways. It would be one hell of a trick in a DC3, for sure.
If just one engine will get you off airborne and climbing safely from a V1 cut then why on earth would it not get you from threshold to V1? The answer is it would. So, keep directional control and runway length permitting...
There is a world of difference though, as said above, between "would", "should" and "could".
Most tricycle-gear aircraft will have enough low speed control to stay on the runway until the rudder begins to bite - you may need to feather the power in - but the only real hazard, that aside, is running out of tarmac, and in a modern high powered machine I doubt that would happen on any but shorter runways. It would be one hell of a trick in a DC3, for sure.
If just one engine will get you off airborne and climbing safely from a V1 cut then why on earth would it not get you from threshold to V1? The answer is it would. So, keep directional control and runway length permitting...
There is a world of difference though, as said above, between "would", "should" and "could".
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The early Aero Commander did it well: (con-pilot take note)
In May of 1951, to kick off their product’s advertising, the company flew their new aircraft at full maximum takeoff weight from Oklahoma City to Washington, D.C. with one propeller removed.
The record-breaking single-engine flight was such a success that the company found itself in a backorder situation almost immediately.
The record-breaking single-engine flight was such a success that the company found itself in a backorder situation almost immediately.