Test pilot - 3 questions.
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Test pilot - 3 questions.
Hi all,
1. Is it possible for a commercial pilot to join the Empire test pilot school?
2. If not, how can a commercial pilot become a test pilot?
3. Is there any way of becoming a test pilot without joining the military or being a commercial pilot? Is there a school who will train you from a total beginner to test pilot?
Thanks in advance,
Ez (15 years)
1. Is it possible for a commercial pilot to join the Empire test pilot school?
2. If not, how can a commercial pilot become a test pilot?
3. Is there any way of becoming a test pilot without joining the military or being a commercial pilot? Is there a school who will train you from a total beginner to test pilot?
Thanks in advance,
Ez (15 years)
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Sorry
Ive just read old post and realise I have repeated old questions.
But, I have one different question.
Can you join ETPS or other test pilot school without joining the military? I). I am a RAF cadet and am hopefully doing a flying Scholarship soon. I love flying (been 15 or so times in Tutor, twice in chinook) but do not want to kill for 12 years. I want to go to Uni and get an aeronautical engineering degree but do not fancy being a FTE first. I know Im asking much, but is there any way......
But, I have one different question.
Can you join ETPS or other test pilot school without joining the military? I). I am a RAF cadet and am hopefully doing a flying Scholarship soon. I love flying (been 15 or so times in Tutor, twice in chinook) but do not want to kill for 12 years. I want to go to Uni and get an aeronautical engineering degree but do not fancy being a FTE first. I know Im asking much, but is there any way......
Your odds of doing ETPS without being at-least employed by the military are sufficiently slim that I'd discount them.
There is NTPS (ww.ntps.com) at Mojave which is a civil-run school and as well respected as any of the military schools; it's also far cheaper. However, it's still expensive and you're likely to need at-least a major employer behind you, there's not a great deal of chance of self-funding through anything other than one or two of their shorter specialist courses.
I must admit that I can't quite see your logic - you want to do an aero-eng degree, so presumably are interested in Engineering. You want to be a pilot - equally nothing wrong with that. But, being an FTE is about flying in test aircraft, and both TPs and FTEs are deeply and intimately involved with the planning and analysis of the testing, as well as the conduct. Or in other words, I can't quite see what you've got against being an FTE, it's not (unless you work in an area testing single seaters only - which is pretty rare) incompatible with flying, please don't think that FTE is a ground job or doesn't involve an intimate relationship with aeroplanes. Equally don't think that being a TP gets you off the deep technical bits (or not being a good TP anyway).
Basically there are three routes to Test Pilot.
- Become a very experienced pilot then persuade somebody to train you in flight testing, or
- Become a well qualified and very experienced aeronautical engineer and also gain sufficient flying experience, or
- Go in as a junior pilot with a company who conduct test flying, and learn on the job (does anybody still do this?, I'm not sure).
But, I'm afraid that your 12 years+ is a sensible minimum to become a TP, by any of these routes. There isn't a quick route in, and so far as I'm aware never has been (nor I suspect would you find many people in the industry arguing that there should be either).
G
There is NTPS (ww.ntps.com) at Mojave which is a civil-run school and as well respected as any of the military schools; it's also far cheaper. However, it's still expensive and you're likely to need at-least a major employer behind you, there's not a great deal of chance of self-funding through anything other than one or two of their shorter specialist courses.
I must admit that I can't quite see your logic - you want to do an aero-eng degree, so presumably are interested in Engineering. You want to be a pilot - equally nothing wrong with that. But, being an FTE is about flying in test aircraft, and both TPs and FTEs are deeply and intimately involved with the planning and analysis of the testing, as well as the conduct. Or in other words, I can't quite see what you've got against being an FTE, it's not (unless you work in an area testing single seaters only - which is pretty rare) incompatible with flying, please don't think that FTE is a ground job or doesn't involve an intimate relationship with aeroplanes. Equally don't think that being a TP gets you off the deep technical bits (or not being a good TP anyway).
Basically there are three routes to Test Pilot.
- Become a very experienced pilot then persuade somebody to train you in flight testing, or
- Become a well qualified and very experienced aeronautical engineer and also gain sufficient flying experience, or
- Go in as a junior pilot with a company who conduct test flying, and learn on the job (does anybody still do this?, I'm not sure).
But, I'm afraid that your 12 years+ is a sensible minimum to become a TP, by any of these routes. There isn't a quick route in, and so far as I'm aware never has been (nor I suspect would you find many people in the industry arguing that there should be either).
G
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ez1000000:
You don't have to kill people just because you are in the military, if that's your concern. There are lots of jobs that actually involve saving lives- like search and rescue, transports (seem to fly a lot of humanitarian missions) and so on.
You don't have to kill people just because you are in the military, if that's your concern. There are lots of jobs that actually involve saving lives- like search and rescue, transports (seem to fly a lot of humanitarian missions) and so on.
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If possible, I would like to fly fast jets. I do not think fast jets do many humanitarian missions. Also, my parents are not too keen on it. I probably would try if it werent for their disagreement.
I don't think there has been a fast jet test pilot qualified in over 30 years who hadn't been an operational FJ pilot, and doubt that there will be again. (Okay, specialist transport or training aeroplane TPs will fly FJ occasionally, but I've never met one for whom it became their main job.)
Is there a difference (either morally or in terms of personal safety) between flying a front-line FJ and working on the testing and development of one? About 8 years ago when a false-start was happening on GW-II, I was earning my living sat in the back of a 2-seat Jaguar as FTE evaluating the corners of the envelope for high angle / high Mach ground attack dives - I don't recall myself or the RAF Officer (and GW I veteran) in the front seat ever commenting that we were glad to be safely at Boscombe Down instead of out in the desert somewhere.
G
Is there a difference (either morally or in terms of personal safety) between flying a front-line FJ and working on the testing and development of one? About 8 years ago when a false-start was happening on GW-II, I was earning my living sat in the back of a 2-seat Jaguar as FTE evaluating the corners of the envelope for high angle / high Mach ground attack dives - I don't recall myself or the RAF Officer (and GW I veteran) in the front seat ever commenting that we were glad to be safely at Boscombe Down instead of out in the desert somewhere.
G
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ez,
You remind me of me when I was 15 and I’d like to address some of your points. First off, I believe you need to do a lot of thinking! What exactly do YOU want to do and how are you going to go about it. Factor in other stuff like what your parents think, but your life is yours to do with as you wish. As an RAF cadet you should have access to people and resources to answer many of your questions.
If you have an issue with the whole ‘kill’ thing (like I did) then you really need to sort this out sharpish. It took me about 3 years of soul searching, research, debate and thinking before my mind was clear about it. If you decide to join the RAF then be aware that it is a ‘force’ – you’ll be part of an organization that has in the past, and will in the future, be called upon to fight.
Be under no illusion about fast jets – they are primarily weapons systems designed to kill bad guys and break their things. As a front line fast jet pilot you have to be ready and prepared to kill but you don’t need to want to kill – do you see what I am getting at there?
As far as contacting places like BAe for work experience, don’t bother with e-mail, telephone calls (IMHE) work a LOT better.
All the best,
MT
You remind me of me when I was 15 and I’d like to address some of your points. First off, I believe you need to do a lot of thinking! What exactly do YOU want to do and how are you going to go about it. Factor in other stuff like what your parents think, but your life is yours to do with as you wish. As an RAF cadet you should have access to people and resources to answer many of your questions.
If you have an issue with the whole ‘kill’ thing (like I did) then you really need to sort this out sharpish. It took me about 3 years of soul searching, research, debate and thinking before my mind was clear about it. If you decide to join the RAF then be aware that it is a ‘force’ – you’ll be part of an organization that has in the past, and will in the future, be called upon to fight.
Be under no illusion about fast jets – they are primarily weapons systems designed to kill bad guys and break their things. As a front line fast jet pilot you have to be ready and prepared to kill but you don’t need to want to kill – do you see what I am getting at there?
As far as contacting places like BAe for work experience, don’t bother with e-mail, telephone calls (IMHE) work a LOT better.
All the best,
MT
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ez10^6
Leaving side for the moment the quesion of becoming a TP, you should disregard Shawn's assertion that:
"You don't have to kill people just because you are in the military"
Yes you do.
In the British Armed Forces, you are a (potential) killer either directly or indirectly. The other members of the team of which you are a pivotal member will not expect you to be a conditional participant. It's all or nothing. You'll be a killer or a supporter of killers. Perhaps you'll be a refueller, a tactical helicopter pilot, a battlefield support pilot or a medevac pilot extracting the wounded so that they may return to the offensive operations as quickly as possible. Whatever the role, you're a member of a killing machine
If, on the other hand, you want to be an academic, that's fine. But don't expect that there is any organisation that is going to pay the enormous sums of money that it takes to train a pilot, give him the years of experience that it takes to give him the basic qualities of a TP, and then train him to become a TP, without a dedicated commitment to that organisation.
If you've £10,000,000 to £15,000,000, you might pay for it yourself.
I make no apology for being blunt; that's the way it is.
Leaving side for the moment the quesion of becoming a TP, you should disregard Shawn's assertion that:
"You don't have to kill people just because you are in the military"
Yes you do.
In the British Armed Forces, you are a (potential) killer either directly or indirectly. The other members of the team of which you are a pivotal member will not expect you to be a conditional participant. It's all or nothing. You'll be a killer or a supporter of killers. Perhaps you'll be a refueller, a tactical helicopter pilot, a battlefield support pilot or a medevac pilot extracting the wounded so that they may return to the offensive operations as quickly as possible. Whatever the role, you're a member of a killing machine
If, on the other hand, you want to be an academic, that's fine. But don't expect that there is any organisation that is going to pay the enormous sums of money that it takes to train a pilot, give him the years of experience that it takes to give him the basic qualities of a TP, and then train him to become a TP, without a dedicated commitment to that organisation.
If you've £10,000,000 to £15,000,000, you might pay for it yourself.
I make no apology for being blunt; that's the way it is.
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ETPS are in a rather strange position as I see it.
I recently had to get my head around all of this. They are actually a business area within QinetiQ Ltd who are now a fully private commercial company, albeit with the MOD as a majority shareholder. Civvie aircrew there are company employees, not civil servants.
I am sure that if you can indeed afford the several hundreds of thousands of pounds (guessing here a bit!) required to do the course that the Chief Executive of QinetiQ Ltd will be only too glad to take your bankers draft give you a crack of the whip.
The Sqn would still probably black ball you however but as I say, from a business point of view, ETPS are in a very strange position.
I recently had to get my head around all of this. They are actually a business area within QinetiQ Ltd who are now a fully private commercial company, albeit with the MOD as a majority shareholder. Civvie aircrew there are company employees, not civil servants.
I am sure that if you can indeed afford the several hundreds of thousands of pounds (guessing here a bit!) required to do the course that the Chief Executive of QinetiQ Ltd will be only too glad to take your bankers draft give you a crack of the whip.
The Sqn would still probably black ball you however but as I say, from a business point of view, ETPS are in a very strange position.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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Chris
You will just have to trust the staff at ETPS to maintain professional standards. Knowing many of them personally I assure you that under the present arrangements they can and do fail students on the long graduate course from both home and overseas customers.
There is little doubt that the current arrangements of employing civilian ex service tutors at tps has strengthend the experience base of the tutorial staff compared to the old pure service system of posting in and out tutors every two or three years.
I don't think the standards of instruction have ever been higher myself.
You will just have to trust the staff at ETPS to maintain professional standards. Knowing many of them personally I assure you that under the present arrangements they can and do fail students on the long graduate course from both home and overseas customers.
There is little doubt that the current arrangements of employing civilian ex service tutors at tps has strengthend the experience base of the tutorial staff compared to the old pure service system of posting in and out tutors every two or three years.
I don't think the standards of instruction have ever been higher myself.
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ez
I think fobotcso hit it on the head.
I joined the RAF many years ago (probably before you were even a twinkle in your father's eye) purely because I had been bitten by the flying bug. I'm not a bloodthirsty type, but I left mainly because I didn't believe that our lily-livered politicians would ever allow me to do the job for which I had been well trained - KILLING the bad guys.
If you believe that the Armed Forces are there solely in order to impose the National will when political means have failed, then the Armed Forces are there to do that job. If you can't accept that proposition, you're obviously a fully paid-up member of the Neville Chamberlain Fan Club.
Maggie Thatcher, who came to office when I was back in civvies, proved me wrong to have left the RAF! If you have any concerns over protecting democracy, and have a yen to fly, then put aside your understandable reservations and go for it. Once you have proved your ability (and commitment) by surviving the rightly hard-nosed training scheme and shown that you are a consistently well above-average Squadron pilot, then TRY for admission to ETPS. If you are very, very good - you MIGHT just make it. If you do, you will have the most enjoyable year EVER of your whole life - and should go on afterwards to make a long-standing contribution to the well-being of your contemporaries and of future aviators.
Sort out your head, then go for it!
I think fobotcso hit it on the head.
I joined the RAF many years ago (probably before you were even a twinkle in your father's eye) purely because I had been bitten by the flying bug. I'm not a bloodthirsty type, but I left mainly because I didn't believe that our lily-livered politicians would ever allow me to do the job for which I had been well trained - KILLING the bad guys.
If you believe that the Armed Forces are there solely in order to impose the National will when political means have failed, then the Armed Forces are there to do that job. If you can't accept that proposition, you're obviously a fully paid-up member of the Neville Chamberlain Fan Club.
Maggie Thatcher, who came to office when I was back in civvies, proved me wrong to have left the RAF! If you have any concerns over protecting democracy, and have a yen to fly, then put aside your understandable reservations and go for it. Once you have proved your ability (and commitment) by surviving the rightly hard-nosed training scheme and shown that you are a consistently well above-average Squadron pilot, then TRY for admission to ETPS. If you are very, very good - you MIGHT just make it. If you do, you will have the most enjoyable year EVER of your whole life - and should go on afterwards to make a long-standing contribution to the well-being of your contemporaries and of future aviators.
Sort out your head, then go for it!
ez,
If you are going to join the RAF, you should really want it a lot more than you seem to. If you are unsure about what you want, you probably won't even make it through selection, bearing in mind there will be plenty of people there who've wanted to be RAF pilots since they knew they existed (
trust me - i'm one of them).
It's not just about flying, it's about using that flying to be a weapon, and especially in a FJ you cannot escape the serious jobs that RAF pilots do, so think very carefully. If you do decide it's what you want, persuade your parents (it will give you good interview practice), and the best of luck to you.
Also, good luck with aero engineering - i'm doing the same course.
Kind regards - Ginge
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Surely you can't be serious?"
"I am serious. And don't call me Shirley."
If you are going to join the RAF, you should really want it a lot more than you seem to. If you are unsure about what you want, you probably won't even make it through selection, bearing in mind there will be plenty of people there who've wanted to be RAF pilots since they knew they existed (
trust me - i'm one of them). It's not just about flying, it's about using that flying to be a weapon, and especially in a FJ you cannot escape the serious jobs that RAF pilots do, so think very carefully. If you do decide it's what you want, persuade your parents (it will give you good interview practice), and the best of luck to you.
Also, good luck with aero engineering - i'm doing the same course.
Kind regards - Ginge
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Surely you can't be serious?"
"I am serious. And don't call me Shirley."
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ive made up my mind...(finally)
First, i would like to thank all of you for your help; you're all very kind. And yes, after a reading your wise posts and a lot of thought, i have decided that the civilian route is best for me. I think it would be unfair on the RAF and England itself if i was not 100% behind joining (and i would hate myself if i didn't enjoy it).
Anyway, the civilain way sounds a lot more fun. If there are anymore tips to help me on my way and to prepare for the future, they will be most welcome. Thanks again.
Ez
PS, the above may sound slightly arrogant and that i think that joining the RAF and/or becoming a test pilot is easy. I do not wish to offend anyone. I do understand that these ambitions are dreams and are very very difficult to achieve.
Anyway, the civilain way sounds a lot more fun. If there are anymore tips to help me on my way and to prepare for the future, they will be most welcome. Thanks again.
Ez
PS, the above may sound slightly arrogant and that i think that joining the RAF and/or becoming a test pilot is easy. I do not wish to offend anyone. I do understand that these ambitions are dreams and are very very difficult to achieve.
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Thanks ez10^6, and bon voyage through life.
If you ever find that you are not enjoying what you are doing, don't hang about. Either try to correct the problem or leave. Remember that the life you are given is not a rehearsal; it's the real, main event.
If you ever find that you are not enjoying what you are doing, don't hang about. Either try to correct the problem or leave. Remember that the life you are given is not a rehearsal; it's the real, main event.
